[0983] The Vanishing Merchantcross Bazaar

By on October 7, 2012 10:00:10 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Glazunov1

Join Date 08/2010
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Not sure if this is a bug, but hopefully, it isn't  feature.

 

My first city at level 3 got the ability to build the Merchantcross Bazaar.  I decided to hold off for a bit, and built a Grocer, first.  After that, there was no option to build the Bazaar.  No popup appeared stating that it had already been built.  When I tried destroying other buildings, just in case the Grocer was in the way, I still didn't have the Bazaar as an option.

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October 7, 2012 10:19:07 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

The option to build a one-per-world building disappears as soon as anyone begins construction.  I'm not saying I like it, but that's how it is.

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October 7, 2012 10:56:14 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Tuidjy,
The option to build a one-per-world building disappears as soon as anyone begins construction.  I'm not saying I like it, but that's how it is.

Its slightly silly, but at least I don't get to miss out on 89 turns of building a wonder like in civ 5...

I still think world achievement's should get the axe, but I might be one of few to think that.

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

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October 7, 2012 10:57:14 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Yeah I like the way it's implemented.

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October 7, 2012 2:16:53 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I think the mechanic is civ 5 is terrible and it makes me not play the civ series.

The mechanic in this game is slightly less bad but still bad. Just remove it entirely.

 

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October 7, 2012 3:41:22 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

So if I want easy claim to a wonder I can put one turn into building it, then move it back in the build queue and build it at my leisure?

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October 7, 2012 3:41:36 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Tuidjy,
The option to build a one-per-world building disappears as soon as anyone begins construction.  I'm not saying I like it, but that's how it is.

 

Seriously? That's a terrible mechanic

 

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October 7, 2012 3:44:41 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Buttons6,
So if I want easy claim to a wonder I can put one turn into building it, then move it back in the build queue and build it at my leisure?

Having it in your queue is enough. No need to start building it.

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October 7, 2012 3:54:50 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Gaunathor,

Having it in your queue is enough. No need to start building it.

 

Terrible mechanic, then, since it isn't about getting the thing built, but about preventing others from having it.  Just a race to deny.

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October 7, 2012 4:29:01 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I think one good way of treating this would be open one-of-a-kind buildings for anyone to build who meets the requirements, until it actually gets finished--pretty much the standard "world improvement" mechanic from the Civ series.  And if someone else finishes it first, offer to move the accumulated build points of a losing party to some other building in any of their cities, with a loss to whatever points are left over.  Thoughts?

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October 7, 2012 5:00:30 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

The current implementation forces you to make choices about your research path. The one-per-world buildings are powerful and worth pursuing but, if you want them all, you'll be way behind in military research!

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October 7, 2012 5:08:42 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting JMiddleton,
if you want them all, you'll be way behind in military research!

Oh I long for the day where that would be a problem in elemental

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

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October 7, 2012 5:12:48 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting JMiddleton,
The current implementation forces you to make choices about your research path. The one-per-world buildings are powerful and worth pursuing but, if you want them all, you'll be way behind in military research!

 

Only with respect, we're not discussing in this thread whether one wants the Merchantcross Bazaar or not, but the game mechanism that removes it (and other one-of-a-kind buildings) from all players' possibility of learning once one player puts it in a queue.

 

Oh I long for the day where that would be a problem in elemental

 

Heh. Yes, there really are very few buildings like that, and the building selection queues really seem kind of bald, all things considered.  I suspect you and I will have to wait for mods upon final game release to get more choices.

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October 7, 2012 6:49:01 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Interesting. I had no idea that was how the buildings worked. The selling point is it avoids the Civilization situation where you get beaten to completion by one turn which really sucks. But this new method comes with some pretty serious baggage of its own as it means it is a purely research race to get the one off buildings (and player knowledge I guess, because you have to know to put it into your queue asap).

Frankly from most points of view I think this mechanism completely sucks, but given the target is single player primarily maybe it isn't a big deal and will actually work alright for gameplay. It needs documenting though because otherwise it is very confusing to the player if it disappears before they receive the message about an AI completing it (or do you get the AI completion message when they start building it?)

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October 7, 2012 10:45:59 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

The gaming aspect where you automatically put it in your queue just to deny access is easily solved. Make each wonder cost 100+ Influence. That way you have to pay for it, meaning even keeping it in your queue costs a serious amount of resources. It also adds a nice aspect to the Influence mechanic.

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October 7, 2012 10:51:48 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting seanw3,
The gaming aspect where you automatically put it in your queue just to deny access is easily solved. Make each wonder cost 100+ Influence. That way you have to pay for it, meaning even keeping it in your queue costs a serious amount of resources. It also adds a nice aspect to the Influence mechanic.

I like that cost to build a world wonder. It's an instant cost and solves the problem of removing it from the que of every other nation.

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October 8, 2012 4:34:10 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I think this is a good solution.

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October 8, 2012 7:50:51 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Yes, the Civilization way of dealing with world wonders is not ideal (you can get beaten by 1 turn), but I personally consider the Elemental version to be even worse. It makes everything a research race instead of a build race. A build race is the more logical thing for world wonders, but from a game mechanics point of view, a research race is equally good. However, the current system is very intransparent and if Stardock want to keep this mechanics, some important thing should be fixed:

* The success message ("Leader X has built Y") should be changed to "Leader X has started building Y". Because THIS is the point where you have won/lost the race.
* Researching the necessary tech first should already trigger the success message. Having to add the world wonder to any build queue without the intent to actually build it, is total nonsense.
* A change of perspective: The actual reward of the research race would be not an immediate one, but the exclusive right to build world wonder Y -- whenever you want to do so later. Not 100% logical, but okay for me.

That's the way to fix the current system. If it's meant to be a research race, than make it a research race. Completely. (Remember the founding of religions in Civ4? Basically, that's how a research race should work: you research something first, you get the benefit.)


However, I think that there is a better solution. Building of world wonders should really be a build race, not a research race, and the chance to beat your competitors is part of the fun. The key element here is making defeat more acceptable. While is does not mean a big loss if you come second in a pure research race (you need the tech anyway), losing a build race where you spent 50 turns or so, that's really annoying. The Civ makers have come up with the idea of giving you back some money for your 90% complete world wonder which unfortunately has to be scrapped out of the blue sky. That's okay, but not really satisfying.

What I always wished from the Civ series was another option: you get information on the state of wonder building by all civs and then it's up to you whether you want to abandon the project or pursue it, knowing the risk of getting beaten. In FE, it could be done like this: you get messages like "Travellers report that the Kingdom of Gilden has started a huge project." [read: 0%, but started; no disclosure of what it actually is] -- "Travellers report that the huge economic project undertaken by Gilden makes good progress" [read: 50% finished; it belongs to a group of wonders] -- "The Gilden kingdom accounded that their project called Merchantcross bazaar nears completion" [read: 75% finished, full disclosure what it is] -- and then the completion messages "Merchantcross bazaar finished by Gilden". At the 0%, 50%, and 75%, the player(s) have the chance to scrap their project with little loss or risk it. Various levels of disclosure (debatable) add atmosphere. I think this solution would be much more fun to play than either a pure research race or a build race where you feel the strong urge to load an old saved game on losing it.

 

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October 8, 2012 8:07:31 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Really good post DrThrash

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

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October 8, 2012 8:18:26 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

 

The truth is I did not stop at making wonders, because AI always finished many of them before me. I didn't know the issue of putting it in queue to block. That brakes the game. I will not use it anyway.

IMO, that of the wonders is more for Civ than for EFE. A great Mill? A bazaar? I don't see it.

I think there should not be unique wonders, but any faction could build them, at the price of the researching and building time requiered, wich is a lot. If you want to introduce a competitive component, then the first one in finishing them can obtain something special (like a 25% bonus, a special unit, or whatever)... But I don't see why focusing in long-term research and production, while I have better in developing my empire...

 

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October 8, 2012 11:46:31 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting seanw3,
The gaming aspect where you automatically put it in your queue just to deny access is easily solved. Make each wonder cost 100+ Influence. That way you have to pay for it, meaning even keeping it in your queue costs a serious amount of resources. It also adds a nice aspect to the Influence mechanic.

Hate to admit it, but that's a good solution.  Now we just need a few more ways to generate influence (Brad's always wanted a way for influence to be more involved... now he has one.)

Derek, you got your ears on?

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October 8, 2012 11:53:56 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Why do you hate to admit it? 

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October 8, 2012 1:47:50 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting seanw3,
Why do you hate to admit it? 

Cuz you're getting all the video cards from Stardock for all your great ideas.  Why didn't I think of this idea first?  I could use a new video card.

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October 8, 2012 2:17:12 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Thing is, it still leaves the game mechanism in place, so you can't build something that someone else is building.  Which just seems counter-intuitive, like the "you can't see or interact with any features on the map unless you research it first" part in WoM.  I'm still trying to figure out what's wrong with letting multiple factions research a one-of-a-kind, giving a partial refund in gold and research at a single city if someone beats you to it.

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October 8, 2012 4:59:26 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Glazunov1,
Thing is, it still leaves the game mechanism in place, so you can't build something that someone else is building.  Which just seems counter-intuitive, like the "you can't see or interact with any features on the map unless you research it first" part in WoM.  I'm still trying to figure out what's wrong with letting multiple factions research a one-of-a-kind, giving a partial refund in gold and research at a single city if someone beats you to it.
I do think the system in place is better.  I do like the addition of influence as part of the cost.

The problem with the first to build, even with the refund is the colossal waste of time.  Some of those 1 per game buildings take for ever to build, who cares about the refund, give me back the time.  Also, how would you solve rush to build.  That would be worse.  Wait until someone has started building it, wait until they have less than 5 turns and then Rush.

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October 8, 2012 10:17:19 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting KingHobbit,

The problem with the first to build, even with the refund is the colossal waste of time.  Some of those 1 per game buildings take for ever to build, who cares about the refund, give me back the time.

 

The whole idea is that you're in a competition with the other players for these buildings.  If you don't want to compete and take a risk that you'll lose, you shouldn't try for the buildings. 

The system as it stands simply transfers the problem you perceive with rushing to build into a rush to level one's city, so a faction can stick one-of-a-kind buildings at the back of a queue that can be endlessly manipulated so the building never gets done.  But it's a win, since no one else can do it.  Please tell me plainly where the sense lies in that, since I'm getting old and have clearly lost my finer appreciation for such subtleties.

 

Also, how would you solve rush to build.

 

Disable the rush button for it. 

 

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