CHAMPIONS vs. SOLDIERS

By on September 26, 2012 9:23:20 AM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Frogboy

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Who can ever forget the epic battle shown at the beginning of The Fellowship of the Ring?  Sauron the Maiar was able to wipe out hosts of men and elves in a single swing.  So terrible and powerful was he that he single handedly kept the armies of the last alliance at bay.

And yet…

There is a balance. Because what most people don’t realize is that the power of Sauron seemed great only in relation to his foes.  Some time in the past, the host of Numenor – mortal men – no elves, so overwhelmed Sauron and his allies – when Sauron was at his peek, that they were able to take him prisoner (this didn’t end well for Numenor in the long run).

And before then…

The half-elf, Luthien’s guardian companion, Huan, single handedly defeated Sauron in combat. Single. Handedly.  Huan was, essentially, a dog. How’s that for humiliating?

And before then…

A single elf nearly crippled Morgoth in single combat. Morgoth is to Sauron what Sauron is to Aragorn. Morgoth was a Valar, an entire order beyond what Sauron was. Practically a god.

The point being is that you don’t have to cripple the champions to make the soldiers you train relatively powerful.  The challenge is balance. And it is, to be certain, a significant challenge.

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In the world of Elemental…

In the picture above, on the left, is Resana. She is the Empress of Krax. A Level 6 Channeler. She is quite mighty but only a wisp of what she will become later.  Next to her is a party of Krax Legionaires.  In Beta 5-B, they take 8 seasons to train (in Beta 5-A, the current public one, they’d take 17 turns to train).  In 1 on 1 combat, Resana would win unless the Legionaires got lucky in combat (critical hits).  But if there were two parties of them, she’d lose.

What changed?

What made training units unpleasant was that unless they were total junk, they took a long time to train. The equipment and skills were simply adding far too much training time. Why bother researching all this great tech if you couldn’t build it? So a considerable amount of time was spent relooking at how much equipment and traits should cost.

Another big change has to do with loot.  This is something we will be working more on. But in previous betas, it was common (literally) to find high end weapons very quickly – just laying around.

What we are moving towards, instead, is where you find cool loot early on but it’s not nearly as over powering. Your sovereign and champions start out with fairly low grade weapons (8 attack).  It’s a bit de-balancing to simply luck out and find a 12 attack +4 speed weapon.  That’s a 50% increase in raw damage not to mention a 25% improvement in initiative.

So instead, Resana finds interesting weapons with trade-offs. A Iron War Hammer that does 12 attack (yay) but weighs a lot (slowing her down) and lowers her initiative.  It makes her tougher in battle (she is doing more damage after all) but it also means she’d need troops to keep herself from getting swarmed. That’s just one example. 

Powerful, rare weapons are out there still. But they have to be earned. You won’t just turn over some lost cargo and find a magic broad sword anymore.

The other change we made has to do with hit points.  Previously, units gained 4 hit points per level.  So by level 10, that’s an additional 40 HP. It doesn’t take long before the trained units become almost irrelevant to the battle because that level 10 champion would have 60 HIP while that newly trained unit might half less than half of that.

The Goal

We do want players who have invested in their champions to be able to win epic battles, single handedly. However, we also want players who invest in building an empire to be able to achieve victory equally effectively.  In the early betas, the champions were considered to weak. The pendulum has swung too far the other way.  Beta 5-B will be our first pass at bringing balance to this conflict.

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October 3, 2012 9:43:53 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting taltamir,
I still PLAY the city game... its just that by the time I won the game with my sov the best unit I can field is a horse riding spearmen wearing leather armor. Aka, useless. So I never actually field any units.

I do recruit champions though so that I can cast steal spirit on them... om nom nom delicious souls.

If you scaled XP wsy down I will still play both games, the sov might be useless now or they might both be useful, but playing both is the only option because there is no opportunity cost. Using my sov or perhaps champions does not in any way slow down my city development. Using my cities does not in any way shape or form slow down my sov development.

Correct, on the horse riding spearmen in leather. Meanwhile in that time your god-sov has become a level 35 wrecking ball in golden platemail using god's nut cup for a shield and beating people to death with Satans's bag of doorknobs.

Again, just scaling xp is not the solution, see my previous post. While I do believe XP is too fast, in a game with a monster density slider it is impossible to properly balance champions versus troops based just on that one function.

I say that cities slow down my sov development because having them means I occasionally have to waste time doubling back to protect them. Having a completely solo sov means I just forge ahead and kill kill kill kill.

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October 3, 2012 9:52:00 AM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

well said CogBurn, bravo.

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October 3, 2012 10:14:21 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Guys, I am afraid we reached kind of dead end here...

Obviously, Stardock wont really nerf heroes (sovs & champs), because hero development (levelling) is one of the main selling points of the game. It is entertaining, well done and funny, as most of you confirm that by playing the game even in solo mode. It is what most of the players (and guys writing reviews:)) will see at first and they will like it. And you want to hard-nerf this, by e.g. halving the xp gains? Halving the pleasure? Not really...

So - no offense - but that is why, according to my opinion, no such thing shall happen, because this game is, after all, business project and needs to be SOLD.

 

Anyway, I still hope that we get some kind of soft tweaks that can at least a bit help the problem, like...

- ...tying usage of rare and uncommon gear to technologies ("Requires level 10 and Alliances technology"), so cities will be actually NEEDED even for Saurons

- ...giving units (maybe from 7+ men?) some kind of Swarming auto-trait, giving extra attack vs. solo units (aka heroes), so units are REAL threat, even to Saurons

- ...giving some heroes anti-hero abilities (already in progress)

 

or other that help to solve the problem WITHOUT destroying the selling point shining in the hero development.

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October 3, 2012 10:17:02 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

One idea that occurs to me is to make champions have to be respawned via the build queue upon death. With higher level ones requiring more production. Thus you would need high level cities for high level champions, although only if they die.

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October 3, 2012 10:17:48 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

I second Cogburn, cities should be able to produce gear that can compete with some of the insane drops you always get from monsters.

I also want to reduce or even remove health regeneration completely.

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October 3, 2012 10:27:45 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums


I don't *really* care about heroes being able to obliterate a large chunk of the game content, I care that they can do it while equipping themselves completely off drops from goodie huts & lairs, and with zero need for troop support because no game mechanic legitimately threatens them after a certain point.

As long as you are cautious in the early game and pick & choose your fights, you get to the point where no game mechanic or unit is a threat or cannot be dealt with by the auto-resolve button, and certainly doesn't need a bunch of slapnuts troops in leather armor and spears.

LET my Sov go all Sauron on shit, but recall that Sauron was still bested in the long run and put some things in the game that I WANT or even NEED rank-and-file troops to fight. That will have me building cities.

I also agree as stated elsewhere ( I cant remember who, the guy with the ant-face avatar) that there should always be leather, chain, and plate available, and rather than the current system where researching one makes the previous utterly obsolete, each needs to be balanced against the other and armor research should upgrade all of them at once to a better version.

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October 3, 2012 3:50:27 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Wow!  This discussion thread is now up to more than 130 Replies, since Frogboy began it, back on Sept. 26.  It certainly has sparked a  Spirited Discussion !   (My own earlier comments appeared at #30, #33, #48, and #89.)  But I think, the arguements are becoming circular, and repetitious by now.  That's okay - everyone should get an opportunity to air their own views; and (for that matter) a number of interesting suggestions have been made, to try to get the Balance right, between Champions vs. Soldiers.

Fair enough.  But I really think, that the fact that there are so many partisans on each side, and so many suggestions, is because something like a fairly close Balance has already been achieved, as of the Beta 5C.  (Alstein made this very point, back in his Reply #86.)  For example, heros now mostly are picking up  rusty swords, and  rusty shields, and  rusty gauntlets (complete with tetanus - ha, ha) as a result of slaying monsters, or raiding "goodie huts".  It is still possible to occasionally get some great booty, but that is increasingly rare, and usually only from very Serious monsters, or quests.  In short, Stardock is working steadily to achieve the kind of Balance in this area, that they think is the best ... They are down to fine-tuning the issue.                          One other thing, that I would note:     

Quoting jirkaesch,
                                                                               o  o  o

Obviously, Stardock wont really nerf heroes (sovs & champs), because hero development (levelling) is one of the main selling points of the game. It is entertaining, well done and funny, as most of you confirm that by playing the game even in solo mode. It is what most of the players (and guys writing reviews) ... will see at first and they will like it.  And you want to hard-nerf this, by e.g. halving the xp gains?  Halving the pleasure?  Not really ...

Smart Observation !   Again, this has been a good discussion; but Stardock is down to the "tweaking" stage on this issue.  The Developers aren't likely to make  drastic  changes, at this stage.  For my part, I am reasonably satisfied on this score ...      ... and I still think:

Balance Rules !      

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October 3, 2012 5:04:37 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums


@CogBurn: Simple solution here would be for the sovereign and other heroes require an upkeep such that you required cities to maintain them. The higher the level of champ, the better the city(s) you need to support them.

What I found very curious is that people cried for more difficult game play and it was granted. Mites were completely buffed to the point where heroes mostlikely needed help in the early levels from other friendly. Now people cry to have them nurfed, and there hp is going to be dialed back next beta. I'm not advocating either as I enjoyed tromping easy mites...but also enjoy the challenge of multiple units in combat. Just an observation...

@SOLOSOL: Wow. Lot's there in your post...

  • It is unlikely that stats will be merged into trait level-ups but it is a very interesting idea.
  • I too would like the option for %chance that heroes die. However, this also isn't going to happen as the AI would be completely outmatched by the player who reloads his games. True, players can still do this if they wanted to, but a negative trait isn't near as bad as a dead hero.
  • We're going to have to be patient when it comes to the tech tree. Lot's of changes there for the next beta.
  • Monsters should level up (and I think do) as the game progresses. Maybe it needs a tweak so that it scales better? Troops should level as the game progresses too. I build a spearman early game to defend a city and late game the city is attacked, and the spearman SUCKS. That's not fair to the troop. Nor is it fair to force the spearman out to quest and gain xp, having the city attacked in the mean time.
  • I don't have problems with strategic magic casting. Once you're mana pool is empty, that's it. It's up to the player how he wants to spend his mana.
  • I like big cities...lot's of cities....empires! This type of playing shouldn't be penalized. Granted, having 50 cities is too much to manage. However, if all 8 factions were in play, and each had the territory to build 3-5 cities, then once you conquared the world, you'd have 24-40 cites. That's still quite a bit, but keep in mind that's endgame once your army is snowballing. Most of the game you'll have two or three enemies and thus will only have 9-15 cities. That range has made for some of my best TBS experiances.
  • Independant cities would be fantastic!! Buy them to your cause with influence. Conquer them with troops. Quest for them. Realyl think these should be tossed in.

@taltamir: Having heroes gain xp from cities improvements and research techs would be an interesting way to have heroes become more dependant on their empire. I imagine such a tweak wouldn't be difficult to accomplish either. Reduce overall experiance down by XX% and incorporate that difference into a per season relative to average times as to when said techs and/or improvements are built. Having bigger empires would equate to high level heroes.

@CogBurn again: While obtaining items for heroes from monster spawns should be limited to what the monsters may have on hand, I still think that the variety of quests, especially those on the upper end, should be able to reward heroes with really good items. The rpg element should not be completely downplayed. Maybe several item rewards need to be available, and you get the one dependant on how much force you've comitted to the battle? Lone unit...small reward. 9 units, big reward. Overall xp of force should also be considered...

Anyways...just some thoughts...

 

 

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October 3, 2012 5:07:21 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting DsRaider,
One idea that occurs to me is to make champions have to be respawned via the build queue upon death. With higher level ones requiring more production. Thus you would need high level cities for high level champions, although only if they die.

This is a very neat idea. Didn't Warcraft III have something like this? You'd need the town spending lore, resources, maybe essence or something to rejuvenate the hero. It'd limit the annoyance of constant comebacks, too (still, true death would need to be a possibility, at least)

Of course, I still think the "MoM approach" would have helped downsizing this problem from the start. Heroes wouldn't even show at your door unless you were managing a thriving empire.

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October 4, 2012 5:06:55 AM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Quoting jirkaesch,
So - no offense - but that is why, according to my opinion, no such thing shall happen, because this game is, after all, business project and needs to be SOLD.

Platitudes. Everyone realises that the game needs to be sold. That is why everyone is giving their opinion on how to make the game as fun and as good as possible.

To claim everyone who has a different idea on HOW to achieve it then you to be unaware of this fact is ridiculous.

Quoting GFireflyE,
@taltamir: Having heroes gain xp from cities improvements and research techs would be an interesting way to have heroes become more dependant on their empire.

it would certainly be different.

What is your take on my alternative idea where having heroes gain XP as normal, but have troops take their share of XP as if they were a hero and convert it into research points? as well as having goodie huts and quests have a chance to give out tech and infrastructure?

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October 4, 2012 5:14:08 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting DsRaider,
One idea that occurs to me is to make champions have to be respawned via the build queue upon death. With higher level ones requiring more production. Thus you would need high level cities for high level champions, although only if they die.

Interesting idea. One issue is that the production is quite dynamic, so a player could for example micro-manage the spells cast on the city like set in stone and enchanted hammers to temporarily game the system. Also there is the issue that we don't really have any control where a hero retreats. The city production value isn't necessarily representative of the empire's progress - I could be retreating to a level 1 city just formed at the frontier to see my level 15 sovereign spend the next 50 turns sitting in its queue.

 

Taltamir had another excellent idea a bit back, that cities could be able to remove injuries from heroes after the city built certain improvements (if I remember right). It makes for some target goals that you can invest in, in order to boost the heroes (keep them useful even if they die). It is a bit more flexible because we could move a hero to a certain city with the right improvements after we suffer an injury.

 

Heroes currently suffer a "time-out" period when they are forced to retreat from a battle. They spend X turns in the closest city recuperating, before they start to regenerate health and you can move them. Techs could also provide a reduction to this time (also make the time longer to compensate).

 

One big problem, in my opinion, is how quick heroes regenerate life. Often I don't have to wait at all with the fighting until my hero is ready to go at full health. This regeneration for heroes could also be reduced, and in turn there are buildings that boost local regeneration and perhaps techs that boost global regeneration for heroes only. Another way to force the player to invest in heroes to make them efficient.

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October 4, 2012 7:12:27 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

How about this:

1. Add a tech "revive (or heal) Champion) to Magic techtree and put it somewhere at start. If your hero dies before you research it - tough luck.

2. When the hero is defeated, it suffers a wound as now and is removed from the map completely. If you have "revive" tech researched, you can revive the hero at the city of your choosing (treat the hero in build queue like a one-per-faction building for this purpose). Make the revival cost a lot , but much less if done in Conclave (is that possible?)

 

Alternately, create a new building (hospital or something, maybe again one per faction) where you can recuperate your champion if you have it built. Now you're able to do it in one city only, but you can choose which one it is.

 

Bad thing about this suggestion is how to make AI use it efficiently. After all, they receive more wounds (hence their champions die much more often) than players'.

 

 

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October 4, 2012 8:29:34 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Heavenfall,
Interesting idea. One issue is that the production is quite dynamic, so a player could for example micro-manage the spells cast on the city like set in stone and enchanted hammers to temporarily game the system. Also there is the issue that we don't really have any control where a hero retreats. The city production value isn't necessarily representative of the empire's progress - I could be retreating to a level 1 city just formed at the frontier to see my level 15 sovereign spend the next 50 turns sitting in its queue.

Playing the game is NOT gaming the system.

Yes it might be a problem when a level 15 hero hits a level 1 city just built, so there probably should be an upgraded logic thingie to send your hero to a city with actual production.

Quoting Heavenfall,
Taltamir had another excellent idea a bit back, that cities could be able to remove injuries from heroes after the city built certain improvements (if I remember right). It makes for some target goals that you can invest in, in order to boost the heroes (keep them useful even if they die). It is a bit more flexible because we could move a hero to a certain city with the right improvements after we suffer an injury.

This is easily combined with the first one I quoted about, to make cities even more important for heroes, well when heroes die.

Quoting Heavenfall,
One big problem, in my opinion, is how quick heroes regenerate life. Often I don't have to wait at all with the fighting until my hero is ready to go at full health. This regeneration for heroes could also be reduced, and in turn there are buildings that boost local regeneration and perhaps techs that boost global regeneration for heroes only. Another way to force the player to invest in heroes to make them efficient.

Yea heroes heal way too quickly, either that or trained troops heal way too slow.

Quoting King_Felix,
Bad thing about this suggestion is how to make AI use it efficiently. After all, they receive more wounds (hence their champions die much more often) than players'.

Don't fret for the AI too much, It can't be too hard to code: Hero have 1-2 injuries, locate a city with hospital and rest there until injuries are gone...
The resurrection spell depending on cost etc... Would have to be coded in by frog, but that is why there is a developer on the AI isn't it?

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

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October 4, 2012 9:34:35 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting GFireflyE,

@CogBurn: Simple solution here would be for the sovereign and other heroes require an upkeep such that you required cities to maintain them. The higher the level of champ, the better the city(s) you need to support them. 

The problem with this idea is it only forces me to maintain a city, not to produce troops. I can still steamroll the world with 1 unit, my invinci-sov. That is the problem. Unkillable, neigh invulnrable, omnipotent, force of nature, wrath of god, 1 man wrecking crew champions/sovs.

Playing with xp & leveling rates to solve this is a fool's errand and impossible to ever truly balance with the number of variables in the game. I think the easiest, simplest, and most strategically/tactically enjoyable solution is to present gameplay challenges that require judicuous application of things produced by your cities -- troops in particular -- to overcome.

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October 4, 2012 10:13:56 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Heavenfall,

Taltamir had another excellent idea a bit back, that cities could be able to remove injuries from heroes after the city built certain improvements (if I remember right). It makes for some target goals that you can invest in, in order to boost the heroes (keep them useful even if they die). It is a bit more flexible because we could move a hero to a certain city with the right improvements after we suffer an injury.

How about starting simple, like a 1% per city level chance that a hero stationed there heals one injury? So on average a hero would spend 20 turns stationed in a lvl 5 city to heal one injury.

If that is possible you could have other things increase the chance of healing. Having another hero stationed there with life magic could increase the chance by 1% per rank in life magic. Or a hero with a 'field medic' promotion increases it by 1%, 'battlefield surgeon' increases it by another 1%. Or a hospital improvement could, along with providing some benefit to stationed troops and the towns citizens, increase the chance by another 1%. Or the enchantments 'Glyph of Life' and 'Aura of Vitality' could add another 1% each. Etc..

One small thing, you'd need to get a notification that an injury was healed, otherwise you'd have to check on the hero each turn or run the risk of missing that he/she was healed.

Slightly off topic, but it ties in with my idea above of having life magic increase the healing chance; it it possible to have a hero's abilities only work when he/she is in a city? I know some abilities do this already, like reducing unrest or building costs, but those could only affect a city anyway. But how about say the merchant ability; is it possible to have it only generate gildar when the hero is in a city?

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October 4, 2012 10:27:45 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I think for the sake of making it a significant investment into heroes, it'd be better to have no chance at all in the start, then have buildings with a chance to remove injuries at around mid-game (if the player focuses in that direction). Otherwise you still get a chance to remove injuries even if you don't invest into that sort of stuff (yes it's smaller, but it's still there).

If the devs are not into having a chance, these buildings could be building up a resource the player can then use to cast a spell that removes a random injury at point X. It gives the player significantly more control of how and when though, but the city remains as the "resource production center". (the spell could also do other things such as force the hero to stay in one place for X turns while the magic works)

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October 4, 2012 11:14:30 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Thing is, proposals like that -- while cool and something I'm in favor of, don't get me wrong -- aren't addressing the core problem that given time, patience, and especially equipment, your sov/champs can still solo the entire world.

Having your cities more involved with recovery after death is neat but doesn't help with the fact that it's still possible to win with only 1 unit that never dies.

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October 4, 2012 11:29:04 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Heavenfall,
I think for the sake of making it a significant investment into heroes, it'd be better to have no chance at all in the start, then have buildings with a chance to remove injuries at around mid-game (if the player focuses in that direction). Otherwise you still get a chance to remove injuries even if you don't invest into that sort of stuff (yes it's smaller, but it's still there).

This is probably the best way to do it, through buildings and/or levelup choices.

Quoting CogBurn,
Thing is, proposals like that -- while cool and something I'm in favor of, don't get me wrong -- aren't addressing the core problem that given time, patience, and especially equipment, your sov/champs can still solo the entire world.

Every post can't focus around heroes owning the world, we have said this on multiple occasions, so I figure the developpers know

Sincerely
~ K

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October 4, 2012 11:53:49 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I'd like to see champions (and the sovereign to) having to go back to the nearest city when killed in battle, even if u end up winning the battle.

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October 4, 2012 11:58:56 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

@CogBurn; True, it doesn't address that, but I wasn't trying to make a suggestion that would fix everything at once. It is something that could help, if implemented along with some of the other suggestions made before. Balancing heroes with troops is something that really should be nailed down before the game is released. Although to be honest, I'm not sure if it's even possible right now with the current game mechanics to have them both balanced against troops, each other, monsters, and still be able to 'go Sauron'. Imho it's rather doubtful that they will home in on some 'sweetspot' that does just that by making some changes to the amount of hps received on level up, damage done per attack, initiative bonuses, etc. Not without making some changes to the game's mechanics, which sadly is off the table.

@Heavenfall, sure the spell thing could work, but while you are getting ready to cast that the hero is still running around gaining xp. Having to park him in a town takes him out of the game for a while. Investing in that town to take that idle time down from ~50 to ~15 turns would be interesting I think. Especially if injuries were a bit more crippling, so running around with more than one or two would be almost suicidal.

Btw, as the resident mod guru, do you know if it is possible to hero abilities only be effective when in a city? See my question above..

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October 4, 2012 12:08:32 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Heavenfall,
One big problem, in my opinion, is how quick heroes regenerate life. Often I don't have to wait at all with the fighting until my hero is ready to go at full health. This regeneration for heroes could also be reduced

 

^Wonderful idea!

Natural regeneration rate should be directly related to the number of troops in a unit - ie. 1 champion regens MUCH less than a 9 man company.

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October 4, 2012 12:14:53 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Kongdej,
Every post can't focus around heroes owning the world, we have said this on multiple occasions, so I figure the developpers know

Sincerely
~ K

If you solve that problem you don't need to worry about injury healing city improvements and spells and build queues and all that. It seems quite a bit simpler to attack the cause than the symptom.

I'm not trying to come off as an obnoxious broken record, but when I see these suggestions like 'what if we had buildings that had a 1% chance to heal wounds and incapacitated champions got put into the city build queue while they recovered...' I start thinking "keep it simple, stupid". What if we just had monsters with traits that troops handled easier than heroes did? Simple.

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October 4, 2012 12:18:56 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Satrhan,
@CogBurn; True, it doesn't address that, but I wasn't trying to make a suggestion that would fix everything at once. It is something that could help, if implemented along with some of the other suggestions made before. Balancing heroes with troops is something that really should be nailed down before the game is released. Although to be honest, I'm not sure if it's even possible right now with the current game mechanics to have them both balanced against troops, each other, monsters, and still be able to 'go Sauron'. Imho it's rather doubtful that they will home in on some 'sweetspot' that does just that by making some changes to the amount of hps received on level up, damage done per attack, initiative bonuses, etc. Not without making some changes to the game's mechanics, which sadly is off the table.

They could do it with some monster traits that are difficult for champs & sovs to fight but easier for troops to counter, coupled with more larger groups of weak monsters. You don't have to juggle hp and xp and such from the champion side, just present some world challenges that are most easily met with standard troops instead of champions, along side the current challenges like dragons that are most easily met with champions and such. Reward a mixed army. It won't take chages to game mechanics to accomplish it, it won't even take finite balancing of weapons and armor to get it started.

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October 4, 2012 12:28:23 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Heavenfall,
One big problem, in my opinion, is how quick heroes regenerate life. Often I don't have to wait at all with the fighting until my hero is ready to go at full health. This regeneration for heroes could also be reduced, and in turn there are buildings that boost local regeneration and perhaps techs that boost global regeneration for heroes only. Another way to force the player to invest in heroes to make them efficient.

Indeed I also pointed this out earlier. Lower health regeneration is a must. Also my rebuilding champions idea would allow players to respawn the champions in any city they choose to. You would pick them out from the training queue like a normal unit. 

Like I said,and others have pointed out, this wouldn't solve the basic problem with champions. I also suggested earlier that the rate of experience required for higher levels be increased and the addition of improvements that increase the experience growth of champions. This would provide a bonus to champions with cities backing them up anyway. Also you could add the experience bonuses directly to the hero line of techs. 

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October 4, 2012 1:46:48 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting SOLOSOL,



Quoting Heavenfall,
reply 137
One big problem, in my opinion, is how quick heroes regenerate life. Often I don't have to wait at all with the fighting until my hero is ready to go at full health. This regeneration for heroes could also be reduced
 

^Wonderful idea!

Natural regeneration rate should be directly related to the number of troops in a unit - ie. 1 champion regens MUCH less than a 9 man company.

Definately very interesting idea.

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