Fallen Enchantress–BETA 5 almost ready

By on September 10, 2012 10:59:54 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001
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With any luck, we will have Beta 5 for Elemental: Fallen Enchantress ready to go out this week. We’re very excited to hear what you think of the changes as we move into balance/polish/bug fixing/AI refinement/content mode.

Kael will have a change log up as we get closer. Stay tuned!

Due date is currently September 20.

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September 10, 2012 11:01:58 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Dear mother of god yes.

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September 10, 2012 11:02:06 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Booyah!

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September 10, 2012 11:05:36 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Take me to the river, Froggy, take a me to the water.

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September 11, 2012 12:06:58 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting ,
                                                                             o   o   o

Kael will have a change log up as we get closer. Stay tuned!

That is what will make it real ...        

 

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September 11, 2012 1:40:26 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Any idea how big the upgrade will be?  Im just curious because ill be out in the oil patch by the time it hits and I dont get very good speed out there.  Hopefully on this update, ill be able to use the update vs the full DL.

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September 11, 2012 1:45:55 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting jmccrea,
Any idea how big the upgrade will be?  Im just curious because ill be out in the oil patch by the time it hits and I dont get very good speed out there.  Hopefully on this update, ill be able to use the update vs the full DL.

 

Hopefully here as well. Unfortunately, the internet I'm forced to use is both slow and unreliable.

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September 11, 2012 5:26:20 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

"AI refinement". I like the sound of that!

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September 11, 2012 5:27:25 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Fastest way to check for that update and download the right content (for non-steaversion owners) would probably be the Stardock Central

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September 11, 2012 9:48:14 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

This would be great for a true Happy Rosh Ha'Shanna

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September 11, 2012 10:08:02 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Is that pic of a dungeon?

 

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September 11, 2012 10:12:33 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting estefaz,
Fastest way to check for that update and download the right content (for non-steaversion owners) would probably be the Stardock Central

 

Fastest way would be to keep an eye on this forum, since Brad's stated a changelog will be up as the next beta gets closer.  No changelog, no beta.

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September 11, 2012 10:44:53 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Not that i'm not excited and i don't want to sound negative but....

.....is the game ready for the final beta phase yet?

As far as i remember beta 5 is supposed to be feature lock time.
Can problems like pioneer spam, general game pacing or population only contributing to gildar production be countered by balance/polishing stuff?
Or are you still willing to overhaul something big time IF you should decide, that a bit of tweaking alone wouldn't do?

It's just a "feeling" but one or two major patches for beta 4 could have be a good thing maybe.

I had the same feeling in the Sins:Rebellion beta, and IMO it turned out, that the last finetuning stage came to soon and an extra beta phase (e.g. balancing the faction introduced last) felt missing.
And Sins didn't even carry such a heavy heritage as FE has got with E:Wom, it was an expansion to a very polished and solid product!
Still the community reaction, that all that essential stuff would be adressed after launch, led to some... uhm mixed reactions, to put it politely.


Please i really don't want to belittle all the amazing effort you guys have achieved until now, and while most of us are confident and supportive for an excellent FE release, there's still a long way to go.

Guess the changelog will be telling .


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September 11, 2012 12:10:32 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting el_phantasma,
Can problems like pioneer spam, general game pacing or population only contributing to gildar production be countered by balance/polishing stuff?

 

I solved pioneer spam with a simple mod. Doesn't sound like a major problem.

 

I solved game pacing with a slightly more complex mod. Could easily be fixed in the next update.

 

Population and buildings affect gildar. Towns are the major gildar producers and do roughly four times more than a Fortress or Conclave. The tax system is really a great game mechanic and didn't need any changes.

 

I don't see a reason why we shouldn't be moving on to beta 5. That is precisely the phase where pacing and balance can solve the issues you seem to have. Unless you are one of "those people" who want a pioneer to cost 200 gildar. They are the Tea Party of Elemental.

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September 11, 2012 1:03:56 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Something people have to understand is that Brad likes "land grabbing" to be a part of his strategy games.  GalCiv is the same way.  I've had to modify my Civilization strategies to fit Fallen Enchantress.  So to be good at FE, you need to start your games by cranking out pioneers just like the AI does.  Here are some suggestions based on whatever the real source of your "pioneer spam" pain might be:

1.  The AI gets all the good stuff: 

a ) Don't build so many buildings early on; instead crank out scouts and pioneers only.

2.  There are too many worthless AI cities for me to clean up in the end game: 

a ) Raze, baby raze!

3.  I hate it when the AI sticks an outpost in my territory: 

a ) SD should create a 10 turn minimum lock out diplomacy option when you tell the AI to leave your territory.  Tell Brad to FIX IT!

b ) City influence should put greater pressure on outposts causing them to convert (ala GalCiv).  Tell Brad to FIX IT!

c ) Get a monster to follow you around and walk him strategically towards an enemy outpost to destroy it (NOTE: this one of the reasons why I don't like playing Tarth... the monsters won't follow you around)

4. I hate it when an attacking AI army is filled with pioneers:

a ) Create another post in this forum and tell Brad to FIX IT!

5. Something else?

a ) Let us know and maybe we can have one of the modding gurus help a brother out.

 

 

 

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September 11, 2012 2:40:20 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

It really depends on how one defines "Pioneer spam".

A big part of Fallen Enchantress is about claiming the land as yours. But cranking out pioneers is most definitely NOT the best way to win the game and the AI has been updated in Beta 5 to takes its cities a lot more seriously.

Rush. Boom. Turtle.  There's a 4th strategy that rarely gets covered but is very effective: Strangle.

When I was in PGL (Pro Gamer's League) this was the strategy I always used and it worked very well in games like Total Annihilation.  Strangle is where you simply control the whole map and you just strangle the other player of resources.

The counter, however, is that the Stranger's empire is brittle. If you're everywhere, you're very susceptible to a focused strike.

My job, and post-release the job of modders, will be to make heavy use of the AITraits tags because that is how I'm going to implement the other 3 strategies prior to release (Rush, Boom, and Turtle).

In Beta 4 (and to a lesser extent, as we begin Beta 5), the AI focuses on strangling.  It works.  But when players know how to counter that strategy, they can counter it for all time.  That's where my work begins to make sure their strategies are more varied.

But that's a *polish* thing.  At this stage, the AI plays the game.  Now it's about making it play the game WELL.

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September 11, 2012 3:19:07 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting seanw3,

Quoting el_phantasma, reply 13Can problems like pioneer spam, general game pacing or population only contributing to gildar production be countered by balance/polishing stuff?

 

I solved pioneer spam with a simple mod. Doesn't sound like a major problem.

 

I solved game pacing with a slightly more complex mod. Could easily be fixed in the next update.

 

Population and buildings affect gildar. Towns are the major gildar producers and do roughly four times more than a Fortress or Conclave. The tax system is really a great game mechanic and didn't need any changes.

 

I don't see a reason why we shouldn't be moving on to beta 5. That is precisely the phase where pacing and balance can solve the issues you seem to have. Unless you are one of "those people" who want a pioneer to cost 200 gildar. They are the Tea Party of Elemental.

 

Can you not see that WE shouldn't have to mod the game to fix it.

It's not like many of these issues have been brought up several times by several people.

The time to fix it is during the beta.

 

I applaud your modding abilities, but I, like many others, I am sure, don't have the time to mod the game.

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September 11, 2012 3:27:35 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Never said you should mod anything. I only was using my mod as an example of how minor the issues are.

 

Let me reiterate:

The issues are very very very very very minor.

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September 11, 2012 3:42:50 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting kapeman,
I applaud your modding abilities, but I, like many others, I am sure, don't have the time to mod the game.

The game makes modding very simple, and I believe, at least in my mind, that modding is a way of customizing the game to your liking, if the pioneer spam irritates you then, by all means, there are easy changes.

To mod use someones balance mod, you merely need drop some files into folders, check a box and restart your client. I'm sorry, if you can't be bothered.

I would also say, that for me the 'pioneer spam' is not anywhere near as irritating or game-breaking as it seems to be for you.

Finally, as Frog said:

Quoting Frogboy,
At this stage, the AI plays the game.  Now it's about making it play the game WELL.

 

Overall, I would say your excessive worry about this pioneer spam seems to be to the degree you think the game is unplayable without it fixed. To that, I would say:

A. The game is not complete, refer to Frog's comment.

B. Ever played a Civ game where you NEED to PUMP out settlers? No? Well this is mild in comparison, if its too rough for you, learn to adapt or lower the difficulty, or apply a mod.

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September 11, 2012 3:46:13 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

all praise the frog and it's minions. 

 

i cannot wait....

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September 11, 2012 3:57:54 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Very excited about different AI strategies!

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September 11, 2012 3:58:12 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I like turtle myself... who needs more than 1 city... and an army of doom anyways...

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September 11, 2012 4:27:26 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting MidnightsFX,

Quoting kapeman, reply 17I applaud your modding abilities, but I, like many others, I am sure, don't have the time to mod the game.

The game makes modding very simple, and I believe, at least in my mind, that modding is a way of customizing the game to your liking, if the pioneer spam irritates you then, by all means, there are easy changes.

To mod use someones balance mod, you merely need drop some files into folders, check a box and restart your client. I'm sorry, if you can't be bothered.

I would also say, that for me the 'pioneer spam' is not anywhere near as irritating or game-breaking as it seems to be for you.

 

Again, the point is missed.

 

If these issues are easy to fix, and I take seanW3's word for it, then shouldn't they be fixed by the devs?

 

Also, please don't focus only the pioneer spam, there are other issues.

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September 11, 2012 5:10:11 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Frogboy,


The counter, however, is that the Stranger's empire is brittle. If you're everywhere, you're very susceptible to a focused strike.
Why is it necessarily brittle? A bigger empire means more money and resources to pay for troops, and so more troops to defend a bigger frontier.

I know mathematics are only *part* of the balance, but still: from a purely arithmetic point of view, if you quadruple the area of your empire, you only double the size of the frontier (provided that it keeps the same shape, so there's some assumptions which are only partially verified in practice).

As a result, you have up to 4 times the troops for only twice as much frontier to defend. That's a simplistic model, I admit - the point is just that if each city can provide for its own defense by producing troops or funding fortress to produce troops, then more is always better. It's just a matter of being well-organized.

Even worse: more cities mean a LOT more research, if you build at least basic research buildings. So not only will you have more troops, but they'll be better, too.

 

I don't think there's enough of a trade-off for large empires/horizontal expansion when compared to smaller empires - especially since you don't have to choose between lots of cities and very "powerful" cities. There's very little downside to expanding a lot, and many advantages. You don't have to sacrifice quality for quantity. The main limiting mechanism used to be prestige, but growth is now mostly tied to buildings, making prestige mostly irrelevant. From my experience, your empire will always be a lot better if it's large.

Trojasmic is right:

So to be good at FE, you need to start your games by cranking out pioneers just like the AI does.

That's just how the game plays out, and that's how I crush hard+ AIs with moderate ease.

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September 11, 2012 5:10:16 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Friday night beta 5! Hopefully. 

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September 11, 2012 5:34:09 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Im thinking its brittle because you expanded so fast and quickly, that you havnt had the time to build the resources and army you would need to hold it.  So if you had multiple opponents who could thrust thru even a single area, your empire could fall quickly.  On the other hand, if you can hold it and reinforce it before they attack the game could be yours.

 

 

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