Home | Recent Posts New Topic
Wizard1200
Wizard1200
Join Date 02/2008
+5

Every hero needs a horse or a warg ...

September 8, 2012 7:10:14 AM from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Currently there is no reason to ignore a horse or a warg with heroes. I think horses and wargs should have the following traits:

Horse:

+ 1 movement, + 20 carrying capacity, + 20 dodge against ranged attacks, + 100 prone avoidance, - 25 % piercing defense

Warg:

+ 2 movement, + 3 initiative, + 20 dodge against ranged attacks, + 100 prone avoidance, - 50 % piercing defense

Locked Post
Search this post
Advanced Search
Subscription Options
Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
2 Pages1 2 
Wizard1200
taltamir
Join Date 01/2006
+34
Reply #1 September 8, 2012 7:15:00 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Researching horse riding is fairly expensive and you only get it later in the game.

Introducing unacceptable penalties to using one isn't exactly "balancing" it, its balanced against its rarity and difficulty of acquisition.

I don't understand why mounts provide prone avoidance though. A mount can be knocked prone, and a person can be knocked off of a mount more easily then if they stand on their own two feet.

Getting hit by a dragon? Well you can't fall down because you are on a horse!

So if you want to nerf mounts, just get rid of the prone avoidance aspect and keep the rest as is, don't introduce a penalty to armor (which means you are taking EXTRA injuries because there is a horse between you and your enemy's weapons).

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
Wizard1200
ins2
Join Date 03/2011
+4
Reply #2 September 8, 2012 7:18:05 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums


I dislike penalties like this to enforce variety. This would not happen in real life (where any hero worth his salt would jump on a horse if he/she found one).

I would perhaps agree with a penalty to magic (casting time, spell mastery etc.) since I can see how it would be harder to cast from the back of a horse, but why defence?

May I propose an alternative? Can we have weapons, armor or artifacts that give great benefits but only when you are unmounted? Is this doable with the current code? If so, I can see a pair of "mage's slippers" or a great hammer which only grant their boon when the player touches the ground...

 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
Wizard1200
taltamir
Join Date 01/2006
+34
Reply #3 September 8, 2012 7:24:24 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Quoting ins2,
reply 2
I dislike penalties like this to enforce variety. This would not happen in real life (where any hero worth his salt would jump on a horse if he/she found one).

Good argument... and for some reason the hero CAN'T find one unless your civilization invests quite a lot of money into learning horse riding.

Even if the sov comes across some pastures with wild horses he can't get any until the culture as a whole adopts them...

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
Wizard1200
Wizard1200
Join Date 02/2008
+5
Reply #4 September 8, 2012 7:29:57 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Quoting ins2,
reply 2

I dislike penalties like this to enforce variety. This would not happen in real life (where any hero worth his salt would jump on a horse if he/she found one).

May I propose an alternative? Can we have weapons, armor or artifacts that give great benefits but only when you are unmounted? Is this doable with the current code? If so, I can see a pair of "mage's slippers" or a great hammer which only grant their boon when the player touches the ground...

In real life a piercing weapon like an arrow or a pike would do more damage against mounted units, because the unit has a higher speed.

Your alternative would be much better than my suggestion, because piercing weapons could inflict bonus damage against mounted units, but i guess it would be too difficult to implement.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
Wizard1200
DGB246
Join Date 04/2006
+5
Reply #5 September 8, 2012 7:32:59 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

I think there should be some penalties to riding a horse. For one thing, melee dodge isn't going to be great on horseback as a horse presents a large target and they can panic and buck their riders.

Also they're not that hard to get techwise and they're fairly affordable in the shop too

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
Wizard1200
taltamir
Join Date 01/2006
+34
Reply #6 September 8, 2012 7:33:19 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Quoting Wizard1200,
reply 5
In real life a piercing weapon like an arrow or a pike would do more damage against mounted units, because the unit has a higher speed.

Your alternative would be much better than my suggestion, but i guess it would be too difficult to implement.

An arrow would not be more effective against a horse mounted unit. And even if your point had a point, it assumes the horse is riding towards the archer and not away from or in parallel to.

A spear is effective against them because they are unable to properly dodge a wall of spears due to the horse's momentum and size. And the spear typically penetrates the horse not the rider.

Quoting DGB246,
reply 6
Also they're not that hard to get techwise

They are one of the more expensive techs out there. Military tech in general is way overpriced

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
Wizard1200
ins2
Join Date 03/2011
+4
Reply #7 September 8, 2012 7:49:15 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Quoting Wizard1200,
reply 5
Quoting ins2, reply 2
I dislike penalties like this to enforce variety. This would not happen in real life (where any hero worth his salt would jump on a horse if he/she found one).

May I propose an alternative? Can we have weapons, armor or artifacts that give great benefits but only when you are unmounted? Is this doable with the current code? If so, I can see a pair of "mage's slippers" or a great hammer which only grant their boon when the player touches the ground...

In real life a piercing weapon like an arrow or a pike would do more damage against mounted units, because the unit has a higher speed.

Your alternative would be much better than my suggestion, because piercing weapons could inflict bonus damage against mounted units, but i guess it would be too difficult to implement.

 

While I don't have personal experience to speak of , I would imagine that the horse's speed and movement would make it HARDER to hit with a bow and arrow from a distance, no? I agree with your point on pikes, and if possible they could have an extra damage bonus against mounted units...

I still the best solution would perhaps be a penalty to casting, which is also more realistic.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
Wizard1200
Schob13
Join Date 05/2012
0
Reply #8 September 8, 2012 8:29:57 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

What if we just got rid of the defense bonus a unit gets when ending their turn without attacking.  Cavalry is not exactly known for its defensive posture .

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
Wizard1200
Kongdej
Join Date 01/2012
+58
Reply #9 September 8, 2012 9:08:26 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

I think there should be more traits available for non mounted units, and also traits that deal extra damage to mounted units.

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
Wizard1200
Glazunov1
Join Date 08/2010
+26
Reply #10 September 8, 2012 12:34:21 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

If you make horses and wargs a very early research item, I can see penalties.  Then champion traits could raise their abilities, and remove penalties.  Otherwise, I can't see why expensive (research-wise) items should come with penalties attached.  Especially such sizable ones.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
Wizard1200
ddd888
Join Date 04/2009
+7
Reply #11 September 8, 2012 5:02:17 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

tbh i dont see problem with mounted... its not free, it cost a lot of research and money (well right now money is not balanced but anyway its a cost), ofc you have the bonus

 

maybe we can argue if the bonuses are balanced or not (imo after last patch a bit too high) but why put the malus for something you paid ?

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
Wizard1200
FrenziedFan
Join Date 04/2012
+1
Reply #12 September 8, 2012 5:43:08 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Horses super super super OP. Nothing should have +2 move. See this post:

https://forums.elementalgame.com/431325

 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
Wizard1200
NaytchSG
Join Date 03/2006
+19
Reply #13 September 8, 2012 7:11:37 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums


We need flying mounts as well as either a quest reward or an expensive tech that only shows up randomly and down both air magic and warfare lines.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
Wizard1200
taltamir
Join Date 01/2006
+34
Reply #14 September 9, 2012 12:22:01 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Quoting NaytchSG,
reply 14

We need flying mounts as well as either a quest reward or an expensive tech that only shows up randomly and down both air magic and warfare lines.

That would be awesome...

Also perhaps as a summon...

Heck, I want a dragon mount (like the bad guy from the master quest has)

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
Wizard1200
mdonais
Join Date 01/2010
+6
Reply #15 September 9, 2012 4:06:42 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Horses should take the boot slot, since you can't benefit from boots and a horse. In addition we should buff boots so that you have an interesting choice between horse wolves or boots. Make more +1  speed boots with armor etc.

Mike.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
Wizard1200
Wizard1200
Join Date 02/2008
+5
Reply #16 September 9, 2012 5:18:28 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Quoting mdonais,
reply 16
Horses should take the boot slot, since you can't benefit from boots and a horse. In addition we should buff boots so that you have an interesting choice between horse wolves or boots. Make more +1  speed boots with armor etc.

I think that is the best suggestion, because it reduces the power of horses and wargs and it is easy to implement.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
Wizard1200
ins2
Join Date 03/2011
+4
Reply #17 September 9, 2012 5:52:54 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Quoting mdonais,
reply 16
Horses should take the boot slot, since you can't benefit from boots and a horse. In addition we should buff boots so that you have an interesting choice between horse wolves or boots. Make more +1  speed boots with armor etc.

Mike.

I'm sorry but I don't like this idea - first of all, it would look ridiculous as heroes would have to go bootless and armors would remain incomplete because they have to ride a horse... secondly, it makes no sense - the defence bonuses of boots are NOT lost while mounted...

If anything needs to be done you can nerf the existing bonuses of horses except the move bonus, or give special bonuses to items against mounted units, or - as I've mentioned before - make them have a penalty on spell mastery...

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
Wizard1200
Loren1350
Join Date 05/2009
0
Reply #18 September 10, 2012 9:39:49 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

I don't understand why mounts give initiative bonuses; why can you attack or cast faster while mounted? Weight capacity makes sense, and may influence initiative that way, but as a direct modifier it isn't very realistic. Movement makes sense, dodge makes sense, prone resist makes sense (though something less than 100% might be nice). 

What about combat bonuses for having higher ground?

I see horses as being more practical/solid, and wargs as the more agile option. So, off the top of my head...

Horse: +2 move, +20 carry weight, +5 dodge, +2 to hit, +1 attack, +1 defense, +75% prone resist, +10% tactical mana cost

Warg: +2 move, +10 carry weight, +10 dodge, +4 to hit, +1 attack, +1 defense. +50% prone resist, +25% tactical mana cost

 

As pointed out, the movement bonus is still pretty huge (especially out of combat). But making Animal Husbandry a prerequisite for horses (and by extension, wargs) also makes sense from a flavor standpoint - and increases the cost, as well. Upping the gold cost isn't a bad idea, either. Is there any way to give equipment (a mount) an upkeep cost?

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
Wizard1200
ins2
Join Date 03/2011
+4
Reply #19 September 10, 2012 10:16:05 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums


... or, if you want to be really cruel, you can make two traits which are available to units and heroes (on level up) as follows:

1. Mounted casting: only heroes/units with this trait can cast spells while mounted with no penalty - all others suffer a 50% penalty to their spell mastery

2. Mounted archery: only heroes/units with this trait can use bows while mounted with no penalty - all others suffer a 50% accuracy penalty

Would this be doable through a mod???

 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
Wizard1200
NaytchSG
Join Date 03/2006
+19
Reply #20 September 10, 2012 11:42:43 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Nice idea, Ins!  Anything to make the heroes/sovs play more unique roles!

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
Wizard1200
taltamir
Join Date 01/2006
+34
Reply #21 September 13, 2012 5:47:59 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Quoting ins2,
reply 18
I'm sorry but I don't like this idea - first of all, it would look ridiculous as heroes would have to go bootless and armors would remain incomplete because they have to ride a horse...

Currently the ONLY boots worth wearing are the +1 speed boots.

Your arguments are sound though. so how about making horses incompatible with those boots and no other boot type? That way you could wear some actual armor on your feet.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
Wizard1200
LordCobol
Join Date 08/2008
+12
Reply #22 September 13, 2012 9:37:15 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Mounts don't really bother me the way they are.  But I think it would be historically accurate to give them a slight accuracy penalty.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
Wizard1200
mqpiffle
Join Date 10/2010
+44
Reply #23 September 14, 2012 2:55:01 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Nerf the Prone Avoidance!

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
Wizard1200
Kongdej
Join Date 01/2012
+58
Reply #24 September 14, 2012 4:17:46 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Quoting mqpiffle,
reply 24
Nerf the Prone Avoidance!

This sounds like the most interesting and modding friendly version

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
Wizard1200
taltamir
Join Date 01/2006
+34
Reply #25 September 14, 2012 4:24:00 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

The prone avoidance is obviously done for mechanical reasons...

Think about it for a second. A horse and rider being knocked prone TOGETHER and then getting up together? It will LOOK ridiculous and it will also be ridiculous in terms of physics...

So what should happen is either the rider is knocked off the horse and the horse keeps on running... or the rider is knocked off AND the horse is knocked off... at which point 1 unit became two units (rider and horse) and its a klucking mess.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
2 Pages1 2 
Stardock Forums v        Server Load Time:   Page Render Time: