Too large production costs

By on September 6, 2012 5:48:39 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

harmonius_

Join Date 08/2012
+3

Some improvements have too large production cost. Also benefits from these improvements are not worth spending so much seasons for building them. For example, Brewery has 3748 production cost and gives additional +5 Food per Grain for the Empire. If some city has 30 production, that is not bad, it will build Brewery for 125 seasons. It is really worthless. In Civilization 5 the minimal production cost for usual buildings (not epic wonders) is 60, maximum is 650. So ratio between maximum and minimum 650 / 60 = 11. In FE minimum = 40, maximum = 3748, ratio = 94.

Locked Post 26 Replies
Search this post
Subscription Options


Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 6, 2012 6:04:45 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Yeah. I think this is particularly bad with the alchemists lab (the one which turns essence into materials) since all those seasons constructing it mean you're losing the Research Idle bonus... to get a bonus to production on what's probably THE LAST THING you'll be able to build. It's one of those things which makes me scratch my head and go "eh?" trying to figure out the purpose behind the decision.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 6, 2012 6:12:00 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

There is some balancing to be done. I think they should increase the benefits more than reduce the build cost. Its important that you have to prioritize and that you cannot build everything.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 6, 2012 6:50:26 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I still think the while idle concept needs to die.  I know Derek loves the idea , but it's boring.

 

 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 6, 2012 6:54:26 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Alstein,
I still think the while idle concept needs to die.  I know Derek loves the idea , but it's boring.

 

 
YES, kill it. I had a post about this a while back. 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 6, 2012 7:11:34 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Alstein,
I still think the while idle concept needs to die.  I know Derek loves the idea , but it's boring.

 

There's nothing wrong with the idle concept. In fact, it's rather good. Effectively it serves the same function as a Production -> Gold/Research that you don't have to micromanage. The problem arises from massive construction times for very little payoff or payoff that comes way too late in the game.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 6, 2012 7:19:26 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

In a game of balancing priorities, I find the concept of +something when idle is rather hopeless. If a city is being idle and run out of stuff to do, I think that the game dont have enough buildings, resources, units or whatever to produce. I dont want to calculate in my head how much research I miss the next 5 turns(+25% research when idle), cause I want to make a pioneer. Its quite hard to track these effects too, without going into the city and look at the buildings. 

I just find it very annoying and will not produce such buildings or chose them at level up of cities. EVER. 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 6, 2012 7:48:18 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I'd rather have Idle bonuses that don't require additional micromanagement for a payoff that only amounts to Building +1, Building +2, etc. Interesting buildings are good. Not interesting buildings are just additional clicking.

 

And your pioneer example still happens with building, even though it's disguised. The opportunity cost is simply transferred to a potential building's bonus (which will have continuous impact throughout the game) rather than a duration of improved production/research/growth that is always there if you need it. You don't have to calculate either of them unless you're deliberately trying to tinker everything for maximal output. That extra effort is on the player for taking it on and that is a good thing because it encourages higher levels of play.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 6, 2012 7:56:42 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

When I get the choice between a building giving +25% research bonus when idle or a +1 research pr turn building, its a pretty difficult calculation. I just dont like the concept. I think we have to agree to disagree.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 6, 2012 10:20:03 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums


I don't mind the bonus when idle buildings.  I think it gives you alternative to just clicking away at the next the building.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 6, 2012 11:12:07 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Not building something= boring.

 

Running out of buildings to build= boring.

 

I don't mind buildings having marginal effects- not every building has to be equal.

 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 6, 2012 11:50:12 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

The only idea I could think of is giving an increasing chance for an event to occur within that city for every turn that it's idle.  That event could be good or bad give extra options, or not, but I was thinking it could at least cut out the boredom.  Rare quests, hidden dungeons, plagues, jousts, beer fests, Bonaroo...  umm, okay maybe not Bonaroo. 

 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 6, 2012 12:00:43 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Alstein,
Not building something= boring.

 

Running out of buildings to build= boring.

 

 

Maybe if your entire empire consisted of one city and you never built outposts or did anything else besides sit on your little city... Run out of buildings? Get a new city. Adding buildings just to click on is tedious and doesn't contribute anything. Upgrading outposts/resources is more interesting than going through an endless cycle of buildings with slightly better effects since you have to first claim/clear them and then develop their protection.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 6, 2012 1:08:20 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums


I think costs are generally spot on. The only buildings I have a problem with are the ones that increase production. +1 PPM (production per materials) is irrelevant when it takes 12 turns to get. Same with 10% discounts.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 6, 2012 1:16:52 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting seanw3,

I think costs are generally spot on. The only buildings I have a problem with are the ones that increase production. +1 PPM (production per materials) is irrelevant when it takes 12 turns to get. Same with 10% discounts.

Really? Those are my favourite improvements. Perfect for starting a city with high production, or catching up later in the game. Plus it is rarely just that production you gain, since improvements all over the place reduce building time and training time. (increasing the value of production).

Also, the fact that they scale with materials really highlights how important materials is in the game. I never settle in a spot with less than 3 materials anymore, and preferably there should be nearby woods a swell.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 6, 2012 1:21:35 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Madcatter,
I'd rather have Idle bonuses that don't require additional micromanagement for a payoff that only amounts to Building +1, Building +2, etc. Interesting buildings are good. Not interesting buildings are just additional clicking.

 

And your pioneer example still happens with building, even though it's disguised. The opportunity cost is simply transferred to a potential building's bonus (which will have continuous impact throughout the game) rather than a duration of improved production/research/growth that is always there if you need it. You don't have to calculate either of them unless you're deliberately trying to tinker everything for maximal output. That extra effort is on the player for taking it on and that is a good thing because it encourages higher levels of play.

 

I think it's important to remember what is the point of having to make the decision of whether to idle or not to idle. When it comes to something like research points, it's rather vague since how often do you need that particular tech 2 or 3 turns earlier (not a hard number just a guesstimate)

However, when it comes to gold you immediately have someting more tangible to work with - do i want the production going ? or do i need the extra gold per turn to pay troop wages or to pay for equipment for my heroes. That is a hard choice to make. that is what makes the "while idle" system work.

having idle production in age of wonders was very important to pay for your army and city upgrades. you had constant tension over how to manage your cities. The system just needs someting in place to provide tension, such as providing some mana income, or a temporary shard buff, or perhaps adding a temporary essence point to a town while it was idle (an intriguing idle buff)

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 6, 2012 2:49:03 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Glowing_Ember,
I think it's important to remember what is the point of having to make the decision of whether to idle or not to idle. When it comes to something like research points, it's rather vague since how often do you need that particular tech 2 or 3 turns earlier (not a hard number just a guesstimate)

This is a good point.  Personally, I think a choice between doing something and doing nothing is generally not a fun choice.  Fun choices are usually picking between doing thing A or thing B (or thing C, etc.), allocating scare resources, building up a powerful champion, etc. 

With the right structure around it, I can see how it could work.

But IMHO with the structure of the current game as it is, idling my cities is not something I'd even consider a choice.  It's something that happens by accident, or because I have run out of things to build in that city.  Really, if I am in a position to idle one of my a major cities it means that I am so dominant that maximizing production no longer matters; and what is the benefit of the idle bonus at that point?

 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 6, 2012 2:57:18 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting sweatyboatman,
But IMHO with the structure of the current game as it is, idling my cities is not something I'd even consider a choice. It's something that happens by accident, or because I have run out of things to build in that city. Really, if I am in a position to idle one of my a major cities it means that I am so dominant that maximizing production no longer matters; and what is the benefit of the idle bonus at that point?

 

I can sorta see that, although there have been a few situations where I need either a lot of extra gold, to beeline a tech (usually related to Heroes before the AI snatched them), or wanted to focus on growth with Festivals and get my city up a tier before going back to build. It doesn't happen too often however. Right now Idling is more often a bonus to cities which have already constructed everything you'd want.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 6, 2012 3:01:35 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums


Let's do some math!

 

On a good day something like Timbermill gives you +3 Production per turn. It costs 387 Production to build. That means it will take ~129 turns to compensate for the opportunity cost. If most games last 500 turns by the time the game releases (currently more like 300), you will only see 270 turns of gain, which is only 810 extra production overall, if you get the recquisite techs by turn 100. Considering that earlier turns are more significant in terms of opportunity cost, this is a bad decision, only offset by the AI's tendency to not do the math as much as the player.

 

The best solution would be to make production increasing buildings cost much less and do much more. Reduce the standard Material yields to offset the increase. Mason and Mill are actually worse because they have higher costs and only benefit construction.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 6, 2012 3:22:15 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Well, in the current system you get gold from rush buying things. That means that +3 production can turn into +3 gold per turn in some cases, which is pretty powerful. I think once that bug gets fixed production will be worth less. 

 

Some buildings do require too much production and should be balanced. The consulate is a good example, where +1 growth isn't a big enough difference to justify 15 turns of production on a city with sovereigns call already.  Considering that outpost improvements are harder to defend than city  improvements, I think that they should be cheaper, perhaps with a penalty based on distance.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 6, 2012 3:43:10 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I think the game should be shorter. High production costs are delaying the game without reason. Better to play short shining game, than overextended game. Else it leads to many unfinished games. 100-200 turns are enough for this game. It is more suitable for multiplayer. Production and research costs can be decreased to achieve this.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 6, 2012 3:45:02 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums


You think that +1 Growth is small? That tells me the current vanilla game is far too unbalanced to play. I reduced that to .5 for consulates and it still seems OP. Espcecially since I set the AI to really want this improvement.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 6, 2012 4:29:19 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting seanw3,

You think that +1 Growth is small? That tells me the current vanilla game is far too unbalanced to play. I reduced that to .5 for consulates and it still seems OP. Espcecially since I set the AI to really want this improvement.

Consulates are WAY OP.

Considering that you can build outposts practically anywhere, the cost of a pioneer + consulate <<<<<< +1 growth.

0.5 would still be OP. 

0.25 ... maybe...

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 6, 2012 4:40:02 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums


I might set a max for each city at .5 from consulates. Need to figure out a good way to do it. I could make it a spell.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 6, 2012 5:04:25 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

It should be zero, it's a silly thing.

 

 

 

Quoting seanw3,
Let's do some math!



On a good day something like Timbermill gives you +3 Production per turn. It costs 387 Production to build. That means it will take ~129 turns to compensate for the opportunity cost. If most games last 500 turns by the time the game releases (currently more like 300), you will only see 270 turns of gain, which is only 810 extra production overall, if you get the recquisite techs by turn 100. Considering that earlier turns are more significant in terms of opportunity cost, this is a bad decision, only offset by the AI's tendency to not do the math as much as the player.



The best solution would be to make production increasing buildings cost much less and do much more. Reduce the standard Material yields to offset the increase. Mason and Mill are actually worse because they have higher costs and only benefit construction.

 

Okay, let's do some math. A Lumber Yard adds 3 per material (a Timber Mill adds 4 production per material btw).

Let's say a city has 3 material, that directly translates to 9 production per turn. The Lumber Yard takes 176 production, which means without any other modifiers you'll need ~20 turns to complete it using only its own production (ze opportunity cost).

If your game lasts 500 turns, you'll earn 480*9 production throughout the game. Obviously I'm not including secondary benefits such as scaling with Unit Training Discount and Improvement Construction Cost Discounts.

 

Okay, let's do some math. A Logging Camp adds 2 per material (a Timber Mill adds 4 production per material btw).

Let's say a city has 3 material, that directly translates to 6 production per turn. The Lumber Yard takes 80production, which means without any other modifiers you'll need ~13.333 turns to complete it using only its own production (ze opportunity cost).

If your game lasts 500 turns, you'll earn 486*6 production throughout the game. Obviously I'm not including secondary benefits such as scaling with Unit Training Discount and Improvement Construction Cost Discounts.

 


 

Let's say you do the upgrade to Lumber Yard at turn 100 in the game. Lumber Yard adds 1 more PPM and takes 176 production to build.

At 3 materials, the paid opportunity cost is ~59 turns. That leaves you with (500(-100-59)) * 3 production net benefit at the end of the game (comes out to just over 1k).


Production boosters are brutally strong at the moment.

1) I only used a 3 material city. I frequently get 4 material cities and even 5 with a clay mine.

2) Set in stone multiplies any bonus, and scales perfectly with

3) Buildings that enhance the production value further, such as Barracks or Mill

 


 

My advice - stop treating production like something you get for free. There are huge bonuses to be picked up, and they'll benefit you more the earlier you build them.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 6, 2012 5:12:36 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting seanw3,
Let's do some math!

Oh god no!

Quoting UmbralAngel,
I think once that bug gets fixed production will be worth less.

Who says its a bug?  The 3 turn minimum with negative rush cost has been in the game a long time and I haven't seen anything from anyone at Stardock to suggest that it's not in there intentionally.  It's not a bug.  It's a feature.  It's a terrible terrible feature.

 

Quoting seanw3,

You think that +1 Growth is small? That tells me the current vanilla game is far too unbalanced to play. I reduced that to .5 for consulates and it still seems OP. Espcecially since I set the AI to really want this improvement.

I think the problem is that growth doesn't scale.  Cities reach level 2 ridiculously quickly and level 3 is a still pretty quick.  After that, though, getting to Level 5 then takes the rest of the game.  With basic buildings and enchants it's pretty easy to boost growth to hit level 3 at a similar rate to level 2.  But if you want to maintain that pace of growth to level 4 you need a ton of +growth, which might actually not be attainable (I haven't tried that).  I think the game needs to do more to make city leveling an interesting challenge, rather than a waiting game.  But leveling champs is far too easy in the game as well, so maybe that's a conscious design choice.

Quoting seanw3,

I might set a max for each city at .5 from consulates. Need to figure out a good way to do it. I could make it a spell.

a +growth improvement on outposts doesn't make any sense to me anyways.  As a rule of thumb, outposts are about ZoC and resources, so if an improvement isn't associated with the ZoC or a resources, it's feature creep and I'd get rid of it.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
Stardock Forums v1.0.0.0    #108432  walnut2   Server Load Time: 00:00:00.0000250   Page Render Time: