Domesticated monsters???

By on September 1, 2012 9:01:14 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

joasoze

Join Date 02/2006
+39

The monsters are now so domesticated that they are NO fun anymore.

 

I got the spell that creates a rift that spawns monsters. Pretty cool I thought. I tested on my neighbour.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8523102/FallenEnchantress_1346484959.jpg

 

The fun is pretty much gone when I watch the carnage not unfolding. The monsters do NOTHING

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8523102/FallenEnchantress_1346501645.jpg

This second link is quite a while later. The monsters are stronger now, but they still do NOTHING.

 

 

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September 1, 2012 9:36:55 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Yea I think its sad monsters won't go hug cities and outposts, they should be more aggressive, but in a more territorial manner.

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

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September 1, 2012 9:54:06 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I took the city as a test, and the monsters attacked on the turn after. That is not good. Since the frog claims that the monsters doesnt differensiate between human and AI, it means that the triggers for monster behaviour needs to be addressed.

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September 1, 2012 7:00:23 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I think the AI gets a free pass with regard to monsters.

I've encountered the same thing with that gate. The real benefit of this spell is to farm xp - you get much more bang for your buck with this than destiny's insight - I wish it would spawn demons more quickly though

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September 1, 2012 7:05:44 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Have you tried turning up the world difficulty?

It's something I"m trying to balance with regards to the difficulty levels. You'd be surprised how small the margin is between the monsters being too tough and not enough on a given difficulty level.

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September 1, 2012 7:19:38 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Hi Brad, I find the monsters attack me, they'll even chase me for several tiles too but quite often I see them ignoring the AI - it seems less frequent than previous versions of the game but it still happens that I'll sometimes see the town next to the slags and they haven't eaten it. I'll turn monsters back up to dense and see how they behave in my next game - I've been playing on expert these past few games but I don't normally move next to them if they're too strong. I'll treat the next game as an experiment

Also just as a suggestion maybe monsters movement should be upped to 2 on the map for expert and upward? I've been wondering how that would impact the game - I'm guessing you guys have probably tested that internally and have decided against it

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September 1, 2012 7:47:17 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

brad, I would like the opponents in the tactical battles to USE their movement points not just one but all their movement points, I routinely see my opponents move one square, then stop for my turn, and with my very fast megapunching uber-armoured sov riding up on her warhorse and hitting them with her boreal blade, most opponents only last one of two hits to death, and the few that take more than two hits are the boss monsters of the quests and the pretty little dragons(but the dragons usually only need three hits to die), and I have not used either growth or huge spells.

and another minor request, please put the ranged attack units at the BACK of the formation at the start of tac battles with the melee units at the front.

harpo

 

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September 1, 2012 7:48:24 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

The AI tries to get the first hit in tactical combat. So it won't just run blindly towards you but rather go slow until it has enough to hit you during its turn.

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September 1, 2012 7:51:31 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Frogboy,
Have you tried turning up the world difficulty?

It's something I"m trying to balance with regards to the difficulty levels. You'd be surprised how small the margin is between the monsters being too tough and not enough on a given difficulty level.

Doesn't difficulty set the AI players to that rating?  You mean to say it also affects monsters? 

 

Monster density only affects how many?  Or does that affect the monsters intelligence and toughness as well ?

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September 1, 2012 8:13:45 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Supreme Shogun,

Quoting Frogboy, reply 5Have you tried turning up the world difficulty?

It's something I"m trying to balance with regards to the difficulty levels. You'd be surprised how small the margin is between the monsters being too tough and not enough on a given difficulty level.

Doesn't difficulty set the AI players to that rating?  You mean to say it also affects monsters? 

 

Monster density only affects how many?  Or does that affect the monsters intelligence and toughness as well ?

On harder difficulties (Hard, or Expert, or the hardest) the 1 monster in each monster group starts getting bonus levels, and therefore will be tougher.

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

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September 1, 2012 8:14:59 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

The problem with monsters as I see it is much more complex then that they aren't simply tough enough. There are tough monsters, so tough they are unstoppable early game in fact. The problem is that the tough monsters are incredibly random and the more common predictable ones are extremely easy to eliminate early game.

Due to the current system we have two types of monsters. The first is comprised of big tough unstoppable monsters like Drakes and Dragons that sit around until someone builds beside them and then they wander off to attack some city on the other side of the world. The second group is made up of easy to kill lairs that start off very weak and grow stronger over time and produce wandering monsters. These wanderers are extremely easy to kill and don't attack cities anyway. Not that they could kill a militia. While this second group grows stronger over time they never get that tough.

Thus we are left with 2 extremes and no middle ground. On one hand we have totally random city killing dragons and on the other we have fodder for farming. Neither of these two types of lairs actually limits expansion either since the tough monsters have a habit of ignoring the cities built beside them and taking a hike. To compensate for how ridiculous it is to have dragons attack you early game they have constantly made monsters weaker and less aggressive. However no matter how much you nerf them dragons will still eat early game players.  Instead this nerfing has simply made the second group too weak.

The fix is to make it so that either lairs give off a ZoC which you can't build over, or so that when placed under ZoC monsters will actually attack the source of that ZoC, return home and not wander off. This way those tough monsters will actually limit expansion instead of just sacking random cities. Also some of the weaker lairs that spawn wanderers need to have tougher guardians to start, so they can't be eliminated early game, and pretty much all of the weaker lairs need to spawn more powerful wanderers over time. Those shrill lairs that only ever produce 1 wandering shrill are a good example of this, whats the point of a monster weaker then a militia?. Late game monsters need to stay in their areas until late game, early game monsters need to scale better and produce much tougher wanderers, and medium monsters and wanderers need to exist. The key is good progression so that over time players can claim more and more land from monsters as they grow in power.

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September 1, 2012 9:24:14 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

couldn't agree more about the need for balanced monsters that act rationally. The ZoC idea is a great one, I hope someone looks into it.

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September 2, 2012 3:38:08 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

+1!! ZOC is the answer.

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September 2, 2012 7:21:11 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

the zoc could be a excellent fix to the issue of mega monster doing long hikes, while the rest of the monsters are just wimps.

but another minor issue with the monsters is that by mid game all the weaker monsters have been cleared out leaving only the megamonsters to go, perhaps in uncontrolled areas (and perhaps in areas that only have outposts for 10+ squares) there could be skathand elemental army spawning also

harpo

 

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September 2, 2012 7:27:38 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

The monster lair ZoC is the one single thing this game still needs. The one last thing and then I think we'd be set for Beta 5, polish and release.

No one likes guessing how close they can get to a lair before the monsters attack you, and no one likes having to guess whether a monster will wander to where you want to build your next city or not.

Make lairs have a ZoC that prevents expansion and that work as a threat border. Makes the world come alive, too.

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September 2, 2012 8:43:12 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Last night I started a new game on a small, balanced map set to ridiculous and dense monsters and it has already had a big impact on the game - I can see you have been doing alot of work here Brad so thankyou. So based on the few hours I played at night here are a few observations

1) 4 players (me as Carrodus, plus AI Relias, AI Kal-al-Kulan, AI Verga (edit)) - anyway Relias died in the first few turns so the monsters must have got him and I havent seen the other 2 players so I think their expansion and scouting has been severely limited

2) Some of the monsters were displaying territorial behaviour which made it hard for me to expand beyond 2 settlements - one pack of ophidians in particular showed zone of control mechanics and was approaching my units when they were within 2 tiles - so I didnt build an outpost there as I was pretty sure it would be attacked. They also returned to their lair too. These ophidians also pounced on my sov when he was level 4/5 and moved next to their lair, other times with other monsters they ignored me. Nevertheless there is an element of risk moving near monster lairs.

3) On ridiculous setting pretty much all the monsters become tough as they get such huge hp advantages and they make sure to use their special attacks at every opportunity - one battle that really sprung to mind was when my sov soloed a haunter with the curse of cyndrum skill - this monster was seriously tough with the extra hps and would have beaten my sov except that he was immune to poison, nevertheless the battle was in a total stalemate as both my sov and the haunter were able to heal all damage dealt - I had to auto this fight in the end and I won on the auto resolve

Anyway those are a few thoughts for now

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September 2, 2012 9:52:04 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Also in response to another poster, I'd like to point out that there are several mid-range monsters such as the trolls, ogres, and shrills (air & fire) - on the harder settings a troll has around 70 hps plus good regeneration - they are tough to take down in the early game. The air and fire shrills zap you in their first turn and sometimes there are 5 of them, thats alot of damage.

I think maybe the wandering monster parties shoulc be much bigger on the harder settings - still made up of weaker monsters but bigger warbands. Small warbands are OK for lower settings but I think they should take the kiddie wheels off for higher settings

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September 2, 2012 10:24:47 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting ,

The monsters are now so domesticated that they are NO fun anymore.

 

I got the spell that creates a rift that spawns monsters. Pretty cool I thought. I tested on my neighbour.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8523102/FallenEnchantress_1346484959.jpg

 

The fun is pretty much gone when I watch the carnage not unfolding. The monsters do NOTHING

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8523102/FallenEnchantress_1346501645.jpg

This second link is quite a while later. The monsters are stronger now, but they still do NOTHING.

 
 

You tried this on Tarth? Well of course nothing happens and the monsters do not attack. Tarth are "Master Scouts" - no monsters will attack their units and probably also not their cities or outposts.

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September 2, 2012 11:29:22 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

@Ronnar

 

lol, good point

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September 2, 2012 12:35:35 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting DGB246,
On ridiculous setting pretty much all the monsters become tough as they get such huge hp advantages and they make sure to use their special attacks at every opportunity - one battle that really sprung to mind was when my sov soloed a haunter with the curse of cyndrum skill - this monster was seriously tough with the extra hps and would have beaten my sov except that he was immune to poison, nevertheless the battle was in a total stalemate as both my sov and the haunter were able to heal all damage dealt - I had to auto this fight in the end and I won on the auto resolve

I played a game on ridiculous myself, I usually play hard because I don't like fighting AIs that cheat too much, and while I agree the monsters are much tougher there are still problems. Firstly the really tough stuff is still too random. Secondly once you get on a roll it is still easy to kill monsters. The higher hp means you have to get some troops or armor before you can really start monster hunting but once you have it monsters still aren't that big of a threat. I easily cleared out all the shrills, trolls, and even ogres with champions with 2-3 pieces of armor. While the hp on monsters starts of higher and it seems like they level faster on ridiculous monsters still have sub par attack and defense. This means they have trouble attacking anything in armor and higher level weapons do a lot of damage to them. I think mostly monsters need to gain more attack and defense as they level.

Quoting DGB246,
Also in response to another poster, I'd like to point out that there are several mid-range monsters such as the trolls, ogres, and shrills (air & fire) - on the harder settings a troll has around 70 hps plus good regeneration - they are tough to take down in the early game. The air and fire shrills zap you in their first turn and sometimes there are 5 of them, thats alot of damage.

I think maybe the wandering monster parties shoulc be much bigger on the harder settings - still made up of weaker monsters but bigger warbands. Small warbands are OK for lower settings but I think they should take the kiddie wheels off for higher settings

Trolls and Shrills are in no way medium monsters. True Ogres and Troll Warriors are but most the time they are wiped out before they level from Exiled Ogres and Trolls. However even these monsters are easy to take out with a good champion and some basic armored troops since there is only ever one in a group. Shrills are incredibly easy to kill once you have enough hp to take a few static shocks. Shrills really need a higher form, like Ancient Air Shrills for instance, and to eventually start spawning groups of more then one shrill. I know Shrill Lords exist, haven't seen any in awhile, but they are really a different thing since they are every element. Again the main thing is that no matter how much hp monsters have they are easy to kill once you get even basic armor because their armor and attack don't scale. They are designed to fight militia and unequipped champions but that stage doesn't last long, especially now that leather is a level 1 tech.

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September 2, 2012 12:58:51 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

@DS Raider

I think part of the problem is the relative effectiveness of different early game spells. I find ridiculous is much more doable with regeneration and stoneskin i.e. building a tank. However it is much harder to play at that level using an empire as they don't have access to life magic and lose out more to attrition because of it. It's been ages since I've tried these settings with an empire but I know it's very tough. Trolls start off with 70 life 4 regen (?) and 14 attack (?), how much tougher do you want to make the basic trolls? They upgrade to troll shamans/warriors eventually too.

I personally think the balance with monsters is getting pretty good now though I'd like to see bigger bands of roaming monsters, respawning lairs in unseen territory, and monsters guarding their territory against cities. I don't think Tarth's cities and outposts should be protected, just their units (master scouts give a move bonus anyway, they could also be compensated with access to telescopes in their shops). Maybe roving bands should move 2 squares on the strategic map too.

If they stick in further level up options for monsters thats great but they have a pretty good range already IMO

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September 2, 2012 3:31:59 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Frogboy,
Have you tried turning up the world difficulty?

It's something I"m trying to balance with regards to the difficulty levels. You'd be surprised how small the margin is between the monsters being too tough and not enough on a given difficulty level.

I play with Hard difficulty and dense monsters. Is it true that the Master Scout even protects cities? I still stand by my point that the monsters should roam and kill (all but Tarth mayhaps). If they just stand there, then there is no point.

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September 3, 2012 7:31:22 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

OK I have been continuing this game and sure enough I found a fell dragon and Verga had built 2 cities within 3 tiles of it's lair (one had expanded to within 2), plus an outpost within 2 tiles of it, plus a road running right past it too - dragon responds to this by .... doing nothing

This is where I think the monster AI needs work - I think they should attack settlements and outposts within 3 tiles of their lairs, this should be viewed as within their hunting grounds - it feels pretty naff that these big monsters just sit there being ignored until someone builds  a superstrong warband and offs them. The red dragon in FFH used to shoot fire at anything that came close plus he spawned loads of orc and goblin followers - dragons in FE just sit there

 

Also @DS Raider - another reason monsters feel weak is because armour is king now, which also supports tank build champs. Even leather armour is really strong but a full suit of chainmail is pretty godly and that's only the mid-range armour.

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September 3, 2012 7:35:35 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

When you click on a monster in strategic, it should show which are it consider its own. When someone settles within this area, the monster should attack and defend itself.

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September 3, 2012 7:58:06 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting DGB246,
OK I have been continuing this game and sure enough I found a fell dragon and Verga had built 2 cities within 3 tiles of it's lair (one had expanded to within 2), plus an outpost within 2 tiles of it, plus a road running right past it too - dragon responds to this by .... doing nothing

Welcome to elemental

I see this all the time

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

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September 3, 2012 8:16:04 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Yeah I've seen it often too but it is one of the things that really irritates me about the game and I'm hoping it gets fixed at some point - The AI players would need to be trained to avoid building near big monster lairs too

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