ddd888

Join Date 04/2009

champions and mana and itemization

this is a problematic matter, which is still unresolved imo and would really need a look

first of all

-we need some mage itemization, there are a few random items you can find via quests and hubs but we really need an early/mid game research giving some tool for a mage champion

thats in general but this is also a must for the problems im gonna explain

MANA

it seems mana is a limiting factor, mostly end game, which is not a bad thing, ofc spamming mindlessly wouldnt be good, but that cause a serious issue because full mage champions arent really viable, which is very bad imo, i want sometimes to have a full mage champions that does nothing more but casting

in FE there are many options really, mages could be glass cannon, support spamming buffs and debuffs, healers, there are many choices

but imo they arent quite viable because of lack of mana

also being too glass doesnt work end game against melees killing you in 2 3 hits

the only viable champion is still an offtank caster, thats the only option, you wear full tank and cast some spells occasionaly and hit with a strong weapon that does same dmg as spells but costing no mana

sadly this is the only good option

another problem is:

EXP NERF

it seems in the path of balancing champions and their level its been nerfed again

right now you can level up maybe to 14 15 but after hours and hours of play

for mages thats not even remotely enough

mages DO need high lvl tier of spells AND buff to spell dmg AND discount to spell cost

and this is just the minimum, many other things would help, like initiative et etc

lvl nerf hurts much more mages than melees, who just relies on items

thats why we need options for equipping our mages with something allowin them the get their own playstyle different from assassins or tanks, or fighters, just a couple of sets of armor giving mage stats instead of defense

(and btw staves for champions still dont quite convince me)

other than that i would still reduce the requirement for level up

imo end game champions should be around lvl 18-20

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While I would of course LOVE more items for mages, I don't agree with you on the weakness of the current mage builds ...

I am playing a mage sovereign with procipinee's crown, and I have reached level 9 with 3 fire shards at my disposal

I am able to summon a fire elemental, cast "stoneskin" and "evade" before battle (no mana upkeep cost), cast "haste" on myself on first round and with my fire elemental as a support tank and a combination of stinking mud, flame dart and my trusted bow I am able to defeat anything except dragons and wildland bosses

... and this is without any serious army / trained unit support ...

I still have a lot of map to explore, so I expect to level up some more, and with the right army around me and tactics I should be able to defeat pretty much everything.

You may be forgetting that the power of various spells actually improves significantly depending on the number of shards you are controlling, and therefore (as opposed to other champions) a mage champion's power grows both with his experience but ALSO through exploration and expansion...

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yes but not being an exclusive is the problem

my tank mage can still cast whatever

he still get bonus from exploration and shards etc

probably you got the point a bit wrong

im not saying mages are weak , im saying i dont like being forced to have them warriorish, id like a full mage wearing cloths with no armor but some bonus to spell damage or initiative or something

only the few rare items are really unique and cool to use because they give nice powers to mages

but still wearing a plate on a mage is a good thing

and it shouldnt be, imo

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Quoting ,

quoting post

MANA

it seems mana is a limiting factor, mostly end game, which is not a bad thing, ofc spamming mindlessly wouldnt be good, but that cause a serious issue because full mage champions arent really viable, which is very bad imo, i want sometimes to have a full mage champions that does nothing more but casting

in FE there are many options really, mages could be glass cannon, support spamming buffs and debuffs, healers, there are many choices

but imo they arent quite viable because of lack of mana

also being too glass doesnt work end game against melees killing you in 2 3 hits

the only viable champion is still an offtank caster, thats the only option, you wear full tank and cast some spells occasionaly and hit with a strong weapon that does same dmg as spells but costing no mana

sadly this is the only good option

EXP NERF

it seems in the path of balancing champions and their level its been nerfed again

right now you can level up maybe to 14 15 but after hours and hours of play

for mages thats not even remotely enough

mages DO need high lvl tier of spells AND buff to spell dmg AND discount to spell cost

and this is just the minimum, many other things would help, like initiative et etc

lvl nerf hurts much more mages than melees, who just relies on items

I think the amount of experience is very good at the moment and it makes the potential trait really useful, but with the random generation of traits at each level it can be very difficult to get all the traits you need to be a powerful mage. In my opinion the number of avaible traits at each level should be increased to give the player more options and to help mage Sovereigns and Champions.

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Quoting Wizard1200,

reply 3

I have just won a game (medium map, hard difficulty, standard settings) alone with a mage Sovereign that uses fire spells (flame dart, burning hands and fireball) and water spells (slow and blizzard). With the Pariden improvement, the meditation spell, three conclave cities, one earth shard and two water shards i got around 20 mana per turn and with a high initiative a single blizzard wipes every enemy off the map for 22 mana.

I think the amount of experience is very good at the moment and it makes the potential trait really useful, but with the random generation of traits at each level it can be very difficult to get all the traits you need to be a powerful mage. In my opinion the number of avaible traits at each level should be increased to give the player more options and to help mage Sovereigns and Champions.

yeah but the point is that magic is atm OP

with few shards and few trait even a naked mage can soon 1 shot a slag and 2 3 shot a drake

its just broken

(on the other side monsters magic is incredibly weak, dunno why)

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I think magic is not overpowered at the moment, but not balanced and the damage scaling is the main problem. Spells should be useful without a shard, without the warlock profession and without the path of the mage, but that is currently not the case. With the scaling per level (Burning Hands, Flame Dart, ...) and the high bonuses of shards the warlock profession and the path of the mage increase the damage too much and other spells (Heal, Courage, ...) are not very useful without a shard. That is the reason why the base effect should be increased, the shard bonuses should be reduced, the warlock profession should add 1 additional shard and the path of the mage should add 1 additional shard, too.

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Quoting Wizard1200,

reply 6

I think magic is not overpowered at the moment, but not balanced and the damage scaling is the main problem.

yes

Spells should be useful without a shard, without the warlock profession and without the path of the mage,

ehm no?

why would a mage cast powerful spells without ANY of those?

but yeah id like some more power naked and a lot less with many shards and traits

but that is currently not the case. With the scaling per level (Burning Hands, Flame Dart, ...) and the high bonuses of shards the warlock profession and the path of the mage increase the damage too much and other spells (Heal, Courage, ...) are not very useful without a shard. That is the reason why the base effect should be increased, the shard bonuses should be reduced, the warlock profession should add 1 additional shard and the path of the mage should add 1 additional shard, too.

i agree in general, not sure about path and warlock bonuses but your general idea is correct

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I agree about mana. How could I not? Conclaves need to have more mana bonuses. Simple fix that would add to the importance of magical specialization.

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Quoting ddd888,

reply 7

Spells should be useful without a shard, without the warlock profession and without the path of the mage,

ehm no?

why would a mage cast powerful spells without ANY of those?

The mage should need shards and traits to cast powerful spells, but without shards and traits the spells must be useful. One example from this thread: https://forums.elementalgame.com/429407 describes how the spells could be changed:

Flame Dart (currently):

(level x 2) fire damage + 4 fire damage per fire shard

At level 1 without fire shards and mage traits: 2 fire damage for 24 mana

At level 10 with 1 fire shard, the warlock trait (+ 50 % damage), the path of the mage trait (+ 50 % damage) and the evoker II trait (+ 50 % damage): 60 fire damage for 24 mana

Flame Dart (changed):

10 fire damage + 3 fire damage per fire shard

At level 1 without fire shards and mage traits: 10 fire damage for 20 mana

At level 10 with 1 fire shard, the warlock trait (+ 1 additional shard), the path of the mage trait (+ 1 additional shard) and the evoker II trait (+ 50 % damage): 29 fire damage for 20 mana

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yes i agree flame dart should scale much much less like the suggest you proposed that i like

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Quoting Wizard1200,

reply 9

Quoting ddd888, reply 7Spells should be useful without a shard, without the warlock profession and without the path of the mage,

ehm no?

why would a mage cast powerful spells without ANY of those?

The mage should need shards and traits to cast powerful spells, but without shards and traits the spells must be useful. One example from this thread: https://forums.elementalgame.com/429407 describes how the spells could be changed:

Flame Dart (currently):

(level x 2) fire damage + 4 fire damage per fire shard

At level 1 without fire shards and mage traits: 2 fire damage for 24 mana

At level 10 with 1 fire shard, the warlock trait (+ 50 % damage), the path of the mage trait (+ 50 % damage) and the evoker II trait (+ 50 % damage): 60 fire damage for 24 mana

Flame Dart (changed):

10 fire damage + 3 fire damage per fire shard

At level 1 without fire shards and mage traits: 10 fire damage for 20 mana

At level 10 with 1 fire shard, the warlock trait (+ 1 additional shard), the path of the mage trait (+ 1 additional shard) and the evoker II trait (+ 50 % damage): 29 fire damage for 20 mana

I COMPLETELY disagree with you - I find it extremely logical and interesting that mages start out as relative wimps which need to find weak opponents to fight and rely on other units to defend them while they get experience but end up uber-strong with silly amounts of damage from their spells after several level-ups.

I also LOVE the fact that exploration (shards) can help mages gain more power, which differentiates them from the other champions.

It all makes for a great RPG element, increases the strategic value of the game, and makes levelin up my mage a welcome challenge!

In fact I would be VERY disappointed if they nerfed the flame dart and other spells as you suggest...

But I guess that's where mods can come in to accomodate both of us

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Quoting Wizard1200,

reply 3

Yeah, this game makes basically all heroes multiclassed, even if you don't want them to. Another of those Baffling Choices that are becoming its trademark.

Also, magic is really anemic in this game. The "scariest" spell that I had to face, so far, is Titan's Breath... and I say "scariest" not because of its gaming effects but because the 1-minute long animation bores the player to death. It's really a pity, all considered.

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I've found that I have pretty big mana stockpiles in most of my games by the midgame if I'm upgrading my shrines and not casting too many unit enhancements. Enough that the 500 mana for the spell of making seems like the quick victory option. Magic feels pretty powerful to me. Buffs early on can change things pretty heavily, and focused fireballs, horrific wail, etc later on wipes armies.

I would also like to see better mage hero equipment. Mostly staffs (most are really weak 2h clubs it seems). Perhaps things to act as +x elemental power for whoever holds it - like you had more shards for that hero. Robes seem fine, but it is sad that 95% of the time my pure mage is far better off with a high + initiative dagger that gives me extra turns for those channeled spells than an actual mage staff. Or staves that would let me bypass cooldowns on spells, or cast multiple summons, etc. I'm sure some of that is in there as legendary items, but in 4 or so games in .95, I haven't gotten one yet. Maybe some nice rings that are something more than weapon buffs, but help with spell casting instead. That sort of thing.

Still, its definitely a lot better each beta.

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Quoting ins2,

reply 11

I think everyone has a different opinion how mages work in a game, but it would be logical that an archer, Legolas for example, starts weak and gets very powerful, too. The problem is that this power difference is very difficult to balance. D&D 3.x is a great example of unbalanced mages, because they are boring at level 1 - 4, interesting at level 5 - 12 and overpowered at level 13+.

In my suggestion the shards help mages to gain more power, too, but the base effect of the spells is increased and the effect of the shards is reduced.

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I don't seem to have an issue with Mana. My issue with magic is that a Champion Mage is just as powerful and a Sovereign Mage. I don't think that is right.

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you dont have issues... PLAYING as a mage?

i dont understand if you guys got the point

im not trying to play regular games abusing broken game mechanics

im trying to roleplay the game as it should be played

meaning if i use a mage i ONLY cast with him, like it should, i want to cast HUNDREDS of spells, and only that

ofc in normal game where you just try to win you put a sword and a plate on a mage et voila you dont need mana!!!

thats not the point though, anyway if you still feel mana is more than enough playing as a pure mage(not fire, because ofc if you use fire mage you kill everything with 1 cast and dont need really that much mana ) plz tell me your secret

whats you usual research path etc etc

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Some of this may have changed with the new build. I have not played a mage in the new build.

Does your Sovereign get "killed" very often. Because that is a pretty signficant mana loss. Repeated deaths to a mage character starts becoming a downward spiral that is hard to overcome. Are you customizing or using one of the standard sovereigns?

That being said, one of the best perks of the Mage path is Affinity. You get an additional 10% decrease in the cost of Tactical Spells. This is on top of the 25% you get for choosing Mage Path to begin with. If you want your mage to become a caster alone, Affinity needs to be picked up as soon as possible. Damage will come as you get more powerful, but start saving mana from the get go. Also any magic item that decreases tactical spell cost is a must. It has been a while since I played a pure mage, but I thought I found one that decreases the cost of tactical spells. Just like all games with Mages in them, Mages are pretty weak to begin with. They are almost always weak to begin with because they become so powerful late in the game. All games based on magic have this formula with mages. Your mage will absolutely need help for the first several levels.

If you are trying to do it without any help than that is one of the biggest differences. Find a champion, almost any champion since they are all so powerful, and have them do most of the killiing for you. Stay involved on the tactical screen but do not use much mana early in the game.

You also need to be a jerk in the game. Any shard you see, needs to become your shard. You either need to get a pioneer to build an outpost, or steal it from the Sovereign that owns it. The last time I played with Ceresa, I had almost 20 shards on a medium map. It also starves your opponent of mana, so it does two different things. Because of the limitation on the wraiths, Ceresa only had leather armor through most of the game. I did find some Gladiator Armor pretty late in the game, but I never got rid of her Staff of Souls through the entire game. From what I read, the Dirge of Ceresa spell has been nerfed quite a bit, which it competely needed. I killed 8 or 9 Ashwake with that spell in three turns.

Obviously build any buildings that add to your mana count. In the new build of the game you will need to focus on Conclaves.

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