[0.95] Starting Locations

By on August 18, 2012 3:09:12 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Kongdej

Join Date 01/2012
+58

There have been some posts about starting locations recently, but I figured id love to pitch in one of my experiences in the new games that really... Sucked!.

It is a starting location with NO viable settling spots nearby (I moved abit around on the map too, and found some 2/4 spots to the north east (Go up and right from the screenshot point of view)

And there is nothing immediately west (To the left of the screenshot point of view)

Save: https://www.dropbox.com/s/4805gupziiz8aip/Starting%20Location.EleSav

Hope you get to look at it, other players are very welcome to share theyre rubbish starting locations! and / or tell me im a complete moron and should have run with this totally overpowered start

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

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OrionM42
August 18, 2012 9:55:20 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I feel your pain . 

On the other hand, randomly generated starts that are rubbish, are not a problem (IMO) if you know about (and are not afraid to use)  cntl n .  I have started games in which I have used  cntl n  10 or 20 or even 30 times!  In my opinion, life is too short (well, okay, I'll say it another way:  My time is too valuable ... ) to settle for a start that is utter rubbish!  I have no inhibition about using the  cntl n  feature as one of the first significant decisions that I make at the start of the game.  (You know how 4X game players always say that they want games in which they are only called upon to make significant decisions ( "meaningful choices" ), as opposed to recurring trivial decisions ...     )       

What has sometimes amazed me, is that there are players who feel it is "cheating" to use  cntl n .  These are usually the same players who feel it is "cheating" to reload a game, when one has lost a battle, that one  really  shouldn't have lost, if the Universe were only a more Fair place ...      

 

Kidding aside, I think the solution to this (for everyone, regardless of their personal morals) is to add the famous:

Selectable Switch to chose between "Balanced" starting positions, and Random starting positions . 

 

As we both know, the subject of Starting locations has come up in several Discussion threads on these forums in the last couple months.  I really think that the players who care about this sort of thing have pretty much come to a consensus that Stardock really needs to add the afore-mentioned  Selectable Switch.  I bet they will in the end -- I just hope that it isn't the very last thing that they do ...   

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August 20, 2012 9:18:31 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting OrionM42,
As we both know, the subject of Starting locations has come up in several Discussion threads on these forums in the last couple months.  I really think that the players who care about this sort of thing have pretty much come to a consensus that Stardock really needs to add the afore-mentioned  Selectable Switch.  I bet they will in the end -- I just hope that it isn't the very last thing that they do ...   

Well to be honest, while I might be able to click CTRL + N (I did after figuring out that location was totally useless )

I still think it is very... "sad" to see these kind of starts, I can understand a more rubbish location to start, like a 2/4, that the editor would have figured "Oh well, he can build a city, he have to be happy"

But if this start happens to me, it can happen to the AI too, and a game on a small map with 2 opponents, suddenly become a battle on a small map against 1 opponent, and a silly little kingdom to the far east.

Also just wanted to share this in the same spirit that the devs needs to see some of the starting maps that are wrong... with theyre own eyes, because if they see the map they can better understand what the problem in the random map generator is.

Thanks for you input anyways though!

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

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August 20, 2012 10:49:46 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums


This has been big for me too. Often times, there is enough room to build 2-3 cities. Sometimes, like in your example above, you get hosed and have next to nothing to work with. The worst, imo, is when your starting city locations don't have the needed essence. You're a mage....I thought the rpg story line was to rebuild your magical empire. Stumble across essense locations please. And your capital should have 2 essence...always, imo.

And then there is the game I'm currently playing: Enough room for 7 cities, mountains surrounding the entire utopia valley...and the only downside is that, out of the 7 cities, only my capital has the essence (2 thankfully). It's basically the land of mordor, but without the ash and sulphur.

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August 20, 2012 1:02:35 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Tried it again, give you an even better screenshot this time

Starting out I saw this:

At that point im thinking "Oh no, not again..." oh well, ready to click CTRL+N, I just figure id look around, see if there were a rainbow filled with goodies just around the river bend.

Took a save of this initial map too btw: https://www.dropbox.com/s/kh6rx5rm5typg7x/Bad%20Start%202.EleSav
and after a few turns I quit the game, and made sure to copy the Debug, incase Devs was wondering or I dont know, better to have it and its not going to be used, than want to have it but forgotten to save it: https://www.dropbox.com/s/94iww1v87c88c90/Bad%20Start%202debug.err

oh well, I go north east up to the champion at hire, he requried a whopping one hundred, twenty or thirty something guildar to hire, but I hire him because I badly need a place to settle, and 2 people can cover the area of scouting twice as fast as one person.

So I scout around for a bit and find ONE tile to settle, after scouting my guildar hit the negative (Hm the hero might have costed one hundred and fourty-something guildar ).

Ill give you the big pic:

I would say that would decent, except for the banished ogre defending it, which I dont have the power to kill without getting the other champ to help...

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

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August 20, 2012 2:44:59 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums


I have experienced similar pains when it comes to start.  I've even had ones where there was only 1 tile to choose for initial city and the Sov was placed there but it was so crappy.  Ctrl-N and didn't give it a second thought.

 

I would also like to share a utopian experience if you don't hate on me.  4 Grain, 3 Material and 2 Essence, had a shard next to river.  Area was literally like 4-2-2 all over the place but this one tile had a goody box on it.  So I took my Sov to check it out, got piece of leather.  After the thing cleared - bam! 4-3-2 shows up.

 

I'l leave with a third and final thought.  I don't know how this occurred but I experienced some 4-4-0 tiles.  Which is Utopian pre-essence.  So I ask this?  Do you settle in hopes of finding some essence in your next city?  or your friend Ctrl - N? I was wondering since it was all dark like empires like and not green, if an empire player wouldn't get 2 essence from this area?  Anyways, thoughts?   

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August 20, 2012 3:39:30 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

@ Supreme Shogun, I wont hate on you Its always nice to see the contrast sometimes, Id just hope to get rid of the mechanic for these starts, while I may be able to ctrl+n it doesn't feel good to have starting positions where I basically have to generate a new map, not because the start is poor, but because the start is next to unplayable.

Quoting Supreme Shogun,
I'l leave with a third and final thought.  I don't know how this occurred but I experienced some 4-4-0 tiles.  Which is Utopian pre-essence.  So I ask this?  Do you settle in hopes of finding some essence in your next city?  or your friend Ctrl - N? I was wondering since it was all dark like empires like and not green, if an empire player wouldn't get 2 essence from this area?  Anyways, thoughts?   

Depends on my mood, lately I have been experimenting with essence, and naturally I would try to pick a spot with essence, but a 4/4 is a superior start nonetheless, and you basically need enchanted hammers to get near the same production if you have essence (I actually like the game balance without enchanted hammers).
I can tell from experience, starting from a 4/4, 5/3, or even more violent a 4/5 can give a huge bonus to manufacturing in the start, spewing out units, pioneers, and buildings like "Merchant", and the other usefull buildings whatever the research goal is, not caring for build times since theyre all short.... But now I'm getting sidetracked... no?

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

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August 20, 2012 4:24:58 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Yeah I would say even a 2/4 is a great start despite no essence, if you are next to a forest and an get the extra 2 production/material from a lumber yard. 

 

The city won't reach max population ever but you can build enough settlers and units early on to make sure you can scout out and colonize the nice areas before the AI does. 

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August 20, 2012 4:37:37 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums


I had a start yesterday with no tiles able to be settled as well. I didn't take a screenshot or anything, because at the time I was unaware that this was unintended game behavior. It took me a good 10 to 20 turns of roaming to find a spot (and it was mediocre), and then I was so far behind I got crushed shortly thereafter.

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August 26, 2012 11:11:42 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Found another starting position I find highly "unacceptable"...

Notice the huge stack of darklings right next to where I did start...

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

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August 26, 2012 11:54:16 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I'd suggest the devs change the starting location algorithm to something like:

Starting locations must have no fewer than three resource locations within three tiles of the sovereign's initial placement.  One of the resources must be a shard.  Potentially, rivers and forests each count as a resource location.  Recruitable monster lairs do not count as initial resource locations.

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August 26, 2012 11:58:46 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting mqpiffle,
I'd suggest the devs change the starting location algorithm to something like:

Starting locations must have no fewer than three resource locations within three tiles of the sovereign's initial placement.  One of the resources must be a shard.  Potentially rivers and forests each count as a resource location.  Recruitable monster lairs do not count initial resource locations.

Well it would be nice if they would tweak it, that is why I post these starting locations, so to bring to attention when I feel my starting location really screwed me over (besides just poor resources)

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August 26, 2012 7:13:45 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Thanks for answering, didn't mean to sidetrack you.

Also, thanks for pointing in out the way you are doing.  Pictures are worth a 1000 words (or more! ) . 

 

You are right, as a player one should expect not to have to resort to ctrl-n.  At least in the finished product. 

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