oh no, not random researches again

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

Yes, research is boring.

But, random research only makes it boring and random.

Sorry.

If you're new here, you probably don't realize that this was talked to death, and then talked about some more, earlier in the beta process. Also, I'm sure that you're a very nice person, but what you proposed just doesn't sound that fun. No offense.

I am sorry, but as LightofAbraxas said, the random part have been talked to death.
I personally am not a fan of random technology, because I like to plan out my gameplan, and design a faction around that gameplan.

But I will listen to all your other ideas!! If you have some good ideas to how research could be made more exciting, without just putting more resources required into the big grinding wheel of getting new stuff, I will happily listen.

I personally like the way research points work, since its dead-simple, I do not have to focus half my game hunting spiders because I need spider eyes to research spears or whatnot.

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

I know Mr. Pocus, even without the Fr
Greetings!

I agree that the research system in FE is pretty boring.

What I think makes a great research system in a TBS game is a system that unlocks new mechanics as you progress down the tree.

For example, Civ5. You go down the tech tree and you unlock some iron ore. If you have it, you can build some special units. So now there's a new mechanic that wasn't there at the start of the game - you have to control and manage another resource.

But of course having more mechanics isn't equal to being better. They also have to work together just right. Some games do this great - Alpha Centauri and Endless Space comes to mind, they both have heavy focus on terraforming but it is placed just right in the pacing of the game.

Examples that FE could use:

- High magic research allows for costly conversion of shards

- High warfare research introduces new combat abilities that you can put via traits on designed units

- Siege cities

FE already have some of this "unlock mechanics" stuff, of course.

Diplomacy and quests are pretty weak areas of the game right now. Espionage is non-existant... while you probably could make an interesting system using those tools, right now I think random tech is a bad direction to head.

I do think that faction specific techs is a great idea, not necessarily a faction specific tree but that could work as well. More unit traits in the tech tree would be great, though even what we have isn't very well balanced. 

@leowen

I think that having a +2% bonus is a terrible idea. Those types of improvements water down the game and make it so your decisions don't matter. Its better to have something like a tech midway in the tree that gives you +25% defense on forest tiles, and then another at the end of the tree which gives +1 movement through forest tiles.

The point is that consolidating the little bonuses into one big thing makes it more of a strategic choice, in my opinion. If you look at WoW's new talent system, they are scrapping all the +1% stat bonuses that you get every level and such and instead giving your character a new game changing ability every 10 levels or so. I think this is a much better way to design any kind of progression system.

@UmbralAngel

Well I wasn't suggesting you remove the actual techs, so it's not watering anything down - it'll be the current system with an extra element added on. And yeah, if there are big super techs spread throughout as you suggest, again, fine - the idea I was suggesting was something on top of the usual tech tree structure. Something that adds a bit of a sting or a bit of a bonus just by playing your faction a certain way - without necessarily restricting you.

So a faction that focuses on the tree that is detrimental to them (eg Umber getting Civ) without getting lots in the tree they like (War) means they'll be at a fair disadvatnage. An Umber who went racing down the Civ tree might end up with 10% reduced hp (as well as all the other techs along the way). An Umber who screwed himself in the usual game by ignoring the Civ tree and getting 10 Warfare techs would have +20% hp. And an Umber who went magic is getting nothing.

If another faction was getting, say, increased spell damage, they might track a path through the detrimental tree really carefully to avoid too many techs, and base a strategy around a lot of the techs in the favoured tree. Then they might show up to battle with a tasty +15% damage bonus.

A long term thing, that you can ignore if you really want, but which provides a bit more depth without needing to completely revamp the current system...

I would not randomize the entire tree, but I have no problems with a champion unlocking a new tech or a quest unlocking a new tech or a faction have a unique branch, or having some of the branches offering random choices to start a game (i.e. Book of Fire, Book of Frost, Book of Wind, etc.)

Sorry, I have to chime in.  Random is a good thing for me.  The whole game is random anywayz.  Random map, random monsters, random loot, random tiles, random rivers, random mountains and random starting positions.  Why not have some random techs thrown in there.

If I go on a quest and find this fancy item that is not in the tech tree (or not there yet) I can take it to the scientists and they break it apart to figure out how to make more of them.  Then I have to research it if I want to use it.

If its a bow, and your heavy armor specific, dont waste your research on it, but at least you get to think you could someday if you needed to.

Say you meet a farmer and do a quest for him.  In return you will get the knowledge to research +10% food in your cities.

I like the idea someone earlier had.  Make a separate branch for techs you come across throughout your travels that is totally separate from your main techs (or maybe just have them show up in the current trees as an offshoot).  Then you have one more added "surprise!" for your questing.

Just my 2¢

The current random techs are annoying enough, my biggest problem is if it is going to be both proper and interesting technology you receive at random, some is going to be "overpowered" (in some sense anyways) and will be favoured by players, If I wanted to change my playstyle throughout the game as I was playing it because for some reason I cannot cast fire spells, then the Racial system and sovereign creation system should also be expanded to gain powers throughout the game, instead of starting with all the powers at once...

I would still hate it though, because usually when I sit down and want to have a game, I determine some ideologies about the empire and character I want to be playing, I want to play an empire that is melee centric... Oh crap I only got all the bow technologies, and only found all the bow pieces, no heavy armor, no proper shields, no awesome melee weapons, I am fucked in any sense battling the other empires... So I cannot play the way I enjoy playing the game, and that is why I am trying to advocate less random technology, because technology is having such a major purpose and is such a major power-source in the game.

If I reliably could know how to get the ability to craft all the things I wanted to try out, That would much more help my problem, one game did this.. called "X-com, Enemy Unkown" and you had to gather equipment up and research it before you knew what was going on etc. But you cannot make the "random technology" dropped in a reliable way in a civ like game, without it being either a tiresome grind, reliably - but I only find it near the endgame, or its going to  be pointless random technologies that doesn't give anything real.

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

More of a question.

Is it possible to design the tech trees more specific to each faction.  For example, they already have the Athican Longsword.  Could you design enough tech to supply enough research for an entire faction.  Then if the tech trees are different enough, you could "steal" different things from other factions.  That way the Magnar could steal the Athican Longsword tech and research how to make them.

The whole game is not random, its not random how many troops you build in each squadron, its not random how long it takes you to build those same troops, neither is it random how fast you research your technologies, or how fast your city grows in size.
Its 2 different opinions that clashes, thanks for at least trying to understand.
I don't see the game as random, while yes the loot part of the game is random, and how the landscape looks is random, but if everything in the game is random I might as well just roll a dice, and when I roll a 6 I win...

Ps. Give me an option to turn random events off if you include it, some game's random events have been terribly destructive to the game mechanics, essentially breaking the game.

Sincerely
~ Kongdej