Is This a Joke?

By on July 10, 2012 10:59:31 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Captain Pat

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Those of us that payed $50 to essentially beta test that massive failure, Elemental: War of Magic, will get Elemental: Fallen Enchantress for free... right?

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July 15, 2012 2:01:52 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Captain Pat,
Seanw3, you still don't get it, but thats okay. Its not your fault.


Quoting Captain Pat, reply 23
I'd like to see Stardock be a bit more thorough in beta testing and better at getting their releases a bit closer to being a legitimately finished product upon release.


I'm not going to try and change your stance on things, but at least read what people write before saying there is no more to discuss. I've been playing the FE beta quite a bit this weekend and it is leaps and bounds better than E:WoM was 2 years ago, but FE still has many of the same memory leak problems, uninformative/clumsy UI, and silly animation bugs that people have been reporting for 2 years... good thing its still in beta I guess.


Quoting seanw3, reply 21...They are trying hard to make the best game possible...They have lots more money and time to make sure it is great on release. Stardock is putting alot of resources into this game...
 

Its great that you're a fanboy, but just how can you speak for them like this? Where are you getting this information and how do you expect someone that has been continually disappointed by this company to believe this? Because you have +86 karma?  

Not everyone has the same faith in this company as you do. Please, Seanw3 show me the way.
And not everyone has to.  But we can if we want, and we have our reasons for it too, like you have your reasons for thinking the way you do.

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July 15, 2012 2:13:42 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Right, but I'm attempting to explain my reasoning... Sean is just throwing out opinions without evidence... not everyone runs on blind faith. I simply want to know where he is getting all that information about money/time/development process/etc., and "making the best game possible" from. The Dev blogs? We all saw just how much the Dev blogs promised for E:WoM...

How can we take anything seriously if its just hearsay from fanboys?

Anyway, I think I've wasted enough of everyone's time here. Thanks for the input.

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July 15, 2012 2:36:32 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Captain Pat,
Seanw3, you still don't get it, but thats okay. Its not your fault.'
Me neither

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

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July 15, 2012 2:51:14 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

 

Quoting Kongdej,
Quoting Captain Pat, reply 26Seanw3, you still don't get it, but thats okay. Its not your fault.' Me neither

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

Do you want me to draw you a picture?

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July 15, 2012 3:06:56 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Captain Pat,
 
Quoting Kongdej, reply 28Quoting Captain Pat, reply 26Seanw3, you still don't get it, but thats okay. Its not your fault.' Me neither

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

Do you want me to draw you a picture?

Yes! ^^

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

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July 15, 2012 4:25:39 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Captain Pat,
How can we take anything seriously if its just hearsay from fanboys?

Regardless of the developer, this is always good advice to follow. Unfortunately, Stardock's pretty stellar customer service tends to create some rabid fans around here, and I actually kind of agree that this place turns into an echo chamber pretty frequently.

So, caveat emptor, I suppose.

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July 15, 2012 4:49:11 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I love people who show up and stomp around yelling "THIS BETA HAS BUGS" as if they're somehow so much more observant than everyone else who posts consistently.  It's a beta.  It's beta 3 out of 4 or 5 major beta releases, plus the small updates contained in each.  Of course it has bugs.  They main systems aren't even fully in place yet. Because of that the final polish runs haven't been done. 

As for:

Quoting Captain Pat,

I'd like to see Stardock be a bit more thorough in beta testing and better at getting their releases a bit closer to being a legitimately finished product upon release.

And:

[quote who="Captain Pat" reply="26" id="3192153"]
I've been playing the FE beta quite a bit this weekend and it is leaps and bounds better than E:WoM was 2 years ago, but FE still has many of the same memory leak problems, uninformative/clumsy UI, and silly animation bugs that people have been reporting for 2 years... good thing its still in beta I guess.
[/quote]

I'm glad to see you've done so much beta work to help make the product better that you've got all those posts reporting beta problems for FE.  Without all those beta feedback and bug report posts it would look like you came here with an axe to grind and claimed to have played the beta extensively merely to help sharpen the axe. 

As for the "E:WOM was a bad release" horse beating, that horse is dead.  The rocks underneath the now destroyed horse corpse are beaten to dust.  We may have actually beaten through the ground and reached bedrock, or China.  

Here's your evidence for why people are willing to be optimistic about FE:  

  • They've apologized for WOM.  
  • They've given amazingly detailed feedback on why they thought E:WOM was a disaster.  
  • They've been open about what they're doing to remedy it (including increasing the budget for FE, hiring significant new game dev talent, and delaying production of another game).  
  • They've also given anyone who pre-ordered the original game E:FE and a yet undisclosed game for free.  

Get the fuck over it already.  It's more than we would have gotten from any other company in a similar situation.  If you're not happy with that result, you never will be happy and you're just a poison to the community.  

There is plenty to debate about the direction of and systems in Fallen Enchantress.  Try helping to make that a better game instead of waging a war that was over 18 months ago.

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July 15, 2012 7:31:29 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting LightofAbraxas,

Quoting Captain Pat, reply 27How can we take anything seriously if its just hearsay from fanboys?

Regardless of the developer, this is always good advice to follow. Unfortunately, Stardock's pretty stellar customer service tends to create some rabid fans around here, and I actually kind of agree that this place turns into an echo chamber pretty frequently.

So, caveat emptor, I suppose.

Your probably right, but I have seen so many many maaaany stupid and half-arsed games of late, like heroes 6 in where my computer cannot keep connected to they're servers for more than 10 seconds at a time, or Stronghold 3 which is just filled with bad mechanics, to even consider not trying to be optimistic about things.

If I am not optimistic, I tend to get into dark moods, (mostly because im a cripple stuck in a useless medical system), and one have to be optimistic, and try to help the developers achieve something great, even if every last little detail is not to your liking, sometimes the game is not a success, sometimes its complete rubbish ready for the thrash can at release, but thats life.

I cannot be demanding everything and everywhere, when you pay to beta-test or pre-purchase a game you "agree" that it might turn out to be rubbish.
The fact that Stardock have decided to give the old beta testers a free invite to a redo of the game just shows they want to atleast give you something for youre money, if its another mistake, its a free mistake, you don't have to accept it.

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

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July 15, 2012 8:23:34 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Kantok,
I love people who show up and stomp around yelling "THIS BETA HAS BUGS" as if they're somehow so much more observant than everyone else who posts consistently. It's a beta.

Gee, thanks for that update. Where have you been all my life?

Maybe if you actually read my posts you'll realize I'm not the least bit surprised this particular beta has bugs.

Quoting Kantok,
As for the "E:WOM was a bad release" horse beating, that horse is dead. The rocks underneath the now destroyed horse corpse are beaten to dust. We may have actually beaten through the ground and reached bedrock, or China.

I admit I do have an axe to grind. So sorry I missed that party when I got the hell out of trying to fix E:WoM early and didn't waste any more time attempting to beta test a literally unplayable game that shouldn't have been released in the first place. Not to mention, Frogboy locked my thread about how broken his game was in 2010. Why would I stick around these forums with a developer like that? Give me a break. I bet even in the midst of that E:WoM shitstorm Kantok was Captain Fanboy. I don't get it, are you guys on their payroll or something?

Quoting Kantok,
Here's your evidence for why people are willing to be optimistic about FE:
They've apologized for WOM. They've given amazingly detailed feedback on why they thought E:WOM was a disaster. They've been open about what they're doing to remedy it (including increasing the budget for FE, hiring significant new game dev talent, and delaying production of another game). They've also given anyone who pre-ordered the original game E:FE and a yet undisclosed game for free.

That is all well and good, but where is all this information listed? The same dev blogs saying how great E:WoM was at the time? I guess I'm in the wrong for expecting similar quality in a product from the same company that gave us Gal Civ II.

Quoting Kantok,
Get the fuck over it already. It's more than we would have gotten from any other company in a similar situation. If you're not happy with that result, you never will be happy and you're just a poison to the community.

You've got to be kidding. There are plenty of other companies that give out FREE additional content for their games without needing to screw up a previous release so severely they feel inclined to give customers what the game should have been in the first place for "free." Sorry for being the "poison" in your well of rabid fanboys.

Furthermore, if I got my $50 refund from E:WoM and then pre-purchased FE now for $20 and then the undisclosed expansion or whatever it is they're offering down the road for $10-$20, that is still only $30-$40. Wouldn't I get a better deal if I simply asked for a refund on E:WoM ($50) right off the bat? I'd have $10-$20 bucks more in my pocket--unless they're planning on giving us a full priced game for free on top of FE, which I highly doubt.

But you're right about one thing, Kantok. I should help make FE better and not waste energy posting on these forums. Forums full of fanboys that can't take any criticism regarding the beloved company that feeds them garbage but calls it caviar.

Caveat emptor indeed.

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July 15, 2012 8:31:45 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

If you want to retain your posting rights on my forum you would do well to try to act a little less entitled.  Say the word and your WOM purchase can be refunded.

 

Your purchase of a video game you didn't like doesn't include the option of  being able to heap abuse on us in our own forum (that would be more of a dlc thing).

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July 15, 2012 8:34:21 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

By the way, this guy:

Quoting LightofAbraxas,
Regardless of the developer, this is always good advice to follow. Unfortunately, Stardock's pretty stellar customer service tends to create some rabid fans around here, and I actually kind of agree that this place turns into an echo chamber pretty frequently.
So, caveat emptor, I suppose.

Winner of the most level headed post on this entire thread award.

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July 15, 2012 8:37:52 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Frogboy,
If you want to retain your posting rights on my forum you would do well to try to act a little less entitled. Say the word and your WOM purchase can be refunded.

Your purchase of a video game you didn't like doesn't include the option of being able to heap abuse on us in our own forum (that would be more of a dlc thing).

Finally, a credible source.

Wait, are you saying I can keep heaping the abuse when you give me broken dlc for free? Wouldn't those of us that payed full price for E:WoM be saving money if we asked for a refund and then purchased FE and whatever you're planning in the future?

You've dealt with my abuse before Frogboy, and I'm sorry for that, but lets be honest, you sort of brought it on yourself.

Don't worry, I'm done.

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July 15, 2012 8:41:17 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Well, I reserve the right to simply give you a refund for WOM and send you on your way. I am sure there are other games that desperately need your expertise.

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July 15, 2012 8:45:39 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Oh snap. Do I need to quote Dirty Harry before you do it? 

EDIT: By the way, I was asking a serious question above regarding the E:WoM refund and saving money buying FE and whatever else you're offering for free with that $50. Isn't that how it would work out?

That truly is marvelous that you guys offer refunds, not many companies do that. Just please don't use it as a crutch to release unfinished products and then point to it when customers are disappointed with what you release. Does it matter that the credit card I used to purchase E:WoM was replaced?

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July 15, 2012 8:53:56 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

That depends on you.  Do you want Fallen Enchantress and the subsequent game or do you want to continue to utilize our own forums to attack us about a 2 year old game you didn't like?  

I can't promise you that you'll like Fallen Enchantress.  After all, we though War of Magic was pretty good when we released it.  You'd be shocked at what a combination of sleep deprivation and love of *making* a given game will do in terms of judging how good the actual game is.  But it is what it is. WOM eventually became a pretty decent game but we all obviously agree that WOM 1.0 was not what it should have been. We believed it was finished, it just was lousy by our standards.

The Gamer's Bill of Rights requires publishers who adhere to it to provide refunds to customers within a reasonable time if the customer has technical issues.

edit:

As for your serious question: FE is $39.95.  The next expansion pack will likely be between $20 and $30 depending on content level.  If you get refunded on WOM, you would get your $50 back. But there is no 2012 "upgrade" price to FE. It's full price at this point.

 

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July 15, 2012 9:19:40 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Well, I'm not sure how to say this nicely, but using a bit of empiricism here... I'd rather have a refund.

I hope FE turns out great and I regret this. Good luck!

Again, the credit card I ordered WoM with expired and my new one has a different card number. Will that cause a problem?

 

Edit:

 Nevermind, I'll contact customer service about it. Good luck with FE.

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July 15, 2012 9:25:35 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Captain Pat,
Seanw3, you still don't get it, but thats okay. Its not your fault.


Quoting Captain Pat, reply 23
I'd like to see Stardock be a bit more thorough in beta testing and better at getting their releases a bit closer to being a legitimately finished product upon release.


I'm not going to try and change your stance on things, but at least read what people write before saying there is no more to discuss. I've been playing the FE beta quite a bit this weekend and it is leaps and bounds better than E:WoM was 2 years ago, but FE still has many of the same memory leak problems, uninformative/clumsy UI, and silly animation bugs that people have been reporting for 2 years... good thing its still in beta I guess.


Quoting seanw3, reply 21...They are trying hard to make the best game possible...They have lots more money and time to make sure it is great on release. Stardock is putting alot of resources into this game...
 

Its great that you're a fanboy, but just how can you speak for them like this? Where are you getting this information and how do you expect someone that has been continually disappointed by this company to believe this? Because you have +86 karma?  

Not everyone has the same faith in this company as you do. Please, Seanw3 show me the way.

 

You are starting to insult me. Please stop implying that I am not reading what you are saying or do not understand it. I have read the thread several times over. There is a difference between me not understanding and us not communicating well. I doubt you are trying to be insulting, but you are being intentionally condescending. I understand where you are coming from. It is a place of doubt. I agree that the burden of proof is on Stardock. That is fair, considering the situation. I said there is no more to discuss because you didn't seem to want to discuss anything. You glossed over everything I said, passing it off as comments made without reading the thread. How can we discuss anything if you are going to make assumptions like that? 

You do make a good point about me making claims without proof. Fanboy might be a good description of me. I am here for one simple reason, AI. GalCiv2:TA has the best AI I have ever played against in a TBS. It is simply amazing. So, I support the company that produced it. It would take a long series of games with bad AI to change my mind. FE is already doing great in this respect. As to my claims, I am not a spokesperson for Stardock. I am just a beta tester. But you can bet that I check the site everyday and read all relevant posts. It might be second hand knowledge, but I am rather an expert on this particular forum and this particular game. I could copy down most of the xml from memory. The biggest weakness of the forum is a crude search engine. I can probably find sources for the claims I made in my earlier reply, but it would be quite the hassle. So you can trust me or look it up yourself.

Could you at least concede that what I say is what Stardock has said? I am a reasonable expert on this subject. I don't think there is anyone questioning me besides you. Most of this is common knowledge. It is common knowledge on the forums that Derek Paxton has no obligation to release the game before a certain date. It has been said in many dev posts that the game will be finished when it is finished. The developer's goal is to get a metacritic score of 90 or better. We are moving into beta 4 soon. There will almost certainly be a beta 5 and maybe even a beta 6. I have been keeping a watchful eye on this project since WoM started development. After the apology for WoM came out, there was a mission statement about winning back their slighted customers by giving them Fallen Enchantress and the yet to be named expansion for free. Since then Derek Paxton has taken over. A new team was assembled and debuted when the Alpha started. The whole point of FE is to prove to gamers like you that Stardock has realized its mistake and will from now on focus on quality over all else. That is why there is no release date and no physical distribution. In Stardock's quarterly and annual reports, which are made public, you can confirm that Stardock is putting a ton of resources into this game. And as you do not seem to realize, Ironclad Games made Sins of Solar Empire, not Stardock. Only the last end of production for Rebellion was done by Stardock. Not entirely relevant, but it is important in saying that this game is the primary focus of Stardock now. Also, keep in mind that Stardock Games are really on an indie developer level. Do not expect AAA level completion schedules. After WoM, Stardock increased the manpower and funding for their games division to unprecedented levels. There is alot riding on the success of FE.

As to the problems that exist with the current beta 3:

-Memory leaks are no longer being reported. I you get a memory leak, be sure to report it.

-The new UI that has been in development is coming out in beta 4 most likely. The stuff we have right now is largely placeholder.

-The animation bugs are a continual problem. As often as they are fixed, new content adds new animation bugs. This is a fact of betas.

-There are some things that have been problems since the WoM beta. IMO they exist in areas that have not been completed for the new game. So much has been overhauled or fixed in the beta cycle, I have no reason to think they would release the game with known bugs. Most bugs I post about are fixed within hours of being posted.

-The only serious crash error left is a repeating crash that I suspect is rooted in the roads data. I am hoping they fix it for beta 4. This one does bother me as it prevents the tester from reloading to avoid the crash. Playing on small maps seems to curtail the issue.

 

You may also be interested to know that there are many features which are planned to be added after FE releases, but before the expansion. That includes a full feature multiplayer, boats, and new content and art assets. But much of this depends on how the game is received by players. If we all agree that the game is terrible, there is not much point in adding new features.

 

[Edit] Apparently he decided for a refund before I could finish posting. Can't say I want many more people like that on the forum. Bon chance.

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July 15, 2012 9:53:40 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Wow Sean, that amazingly informative post wasn't nescessary. I really appreciate that. (No, I'm not being a smart ass this time ). You seem to finally understand how being absent from the forums for roughly two years and seeing you say all those great things about development of FE was a bit disconcerting. It is rather difficult to sift through everything on these forums, as you said.

Anyway, I agree that GalCivII:TA had some of the best AI I've seen in 4x titles--possibly THE best. However, that still doesn't change my mind after what I experienced with Demigod and then E:WoM. I'm really only getting a refund on E:WoM out of principle.

And yes, Sean, I was being intentionally condescending because I thought you were being overly pompous. For God's sake, the first sentance of your initial post was:

Quoting seanw3,
I am starting to get why you have no karma

Can you really blame me?

Well, thanks again for the info. Its really cool that you're so passionate about this game even though you're just another beta tester. But does it really help the development process if there is nothing but uber-fanboys on these forums?

Quoting seanw3,
Can't say I want many more people like that on the forum.

Don't you need people that don't view things through a rosy-colored lens to point out and help fix those faults/bugs as well? If you sift through the passive-aggressiveness a bit you'll find some constructive criticism in there. I admit I was getting a bit too heated--with everyone and their mom ganging up on what I had to say. I still have my version of the beta, and in the coming weeks I planned on being fairly active reporting bugs. (not sure that I can now, though.)

Honestly, any game that is attempting to emulate or be a spiritual successor of Master of Magic, a true classic in every sense of the word, deserves some tender love and care, and a bit of sharp criticism, don't you agree?

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July 15, 2012 10:51:59 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Certainly the game needs a fair share of doubtful critics as well as fanboys. We all play our parts I suppose.

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July 15, 2012 11:18:18 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting seanw3,
Certainly the game needs a fair share of doubtful critics as well as fanboys. We all play our parts I suppose.

wow, I had ignored this thread all last week.  I was disappointed with WOM but I think Frog and Stardock certainly stepped up to the plate.  THe changes to WOM were pretty good, and it was fun to play.  The fact they added the two expansions, which changed to a new game and then an expansion is more than most companies would ever do.  I think a refund two years after the fact, knowing what Stardock was willing to do only proves my initial investment in Stardock was well placed.  I was a first time customer, but I certainly look forward to other titles now.

 

Frog +1

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