[.915] Comprehensive Analysis of All Faction Traits

The thing I don't like about traits that unlock faction abilities is, why do you have 2 faction prereqs for a unit?  Since slaves and golems initially didn't require any prerequisite traits (haven't tested golems, but slaves still do not), I see no reason to have such a crazy-high opportunity cost to juggernauts and henchmen.   Either require a faction trait, OR limit the unique units to one race. 

I agree completely with your break down.  Any trait that just grants a tech is useless.  Anything that grants a small bonus lie +1 initiative is almost useless.  Some of these are hard to choose because the abilities they grant are poorly explained like caravans or some of the spells.  I still don't know what the 50% diplo does.

You only get 2 points (3 with a weakness) the abilities you get should alter the play style of the race not make a small statistical change.  Master Scouts, Death worship, heroic and enchanters accomplish this.  Most of the others don't.  I finish most of my games before some of these abilities even become relevant.

Actually those bows do get an Initiative bonus as well as a damage bonus. I think the problem is a general balance issue with archer damage. All bows need at least +1 damage to be competitive. Their techs need to unlock some better traits and improvements to foster a solid archer strategy.

True, but there are fewer ways to block lightning damage. It is an extremely hard thing to counter.

Light Plate is far superior to chain and can give you an extreme advantage in the midgame. It outperforms Plate in most cases and actually works well with it if you want to mix and match later in the game. Chain is very easily countered, whereas this armor stands the test of time. 

Master Chainmail is great for the simple reason that you can get magical plate, which is as good as plate and still use Master Chainmail in the late game to counter Trog axes and other cutting units. It also plays well into the hands of a faction going after very high Initiative as it weighs much less for a full suit.

The rest of your analyses are fairly complete. I think the devs have yet to try to balance these options for custom factions. Your analysis drives that point home very well. It might be valuable to look at the stock factions as a whole and compare that analysis to this one. It might also be useful to think about when these traits come into play and how useful they are. Iron Golem for example is a midgame tech with low armor for that act as well as no hope of getting a competitive amount of Hp. Not a great buy for the price. That kind of thing.

Binding (The shard demons) is NOT weak midgame. When your death demons have split till full size they will have 372 hitpoints mid game. Weak, me thinks not In my current game my sov has an army of 1600 hitpoints midgame. I have found little weakness here. You could get very unlucky against a shrill lord and loose one unit, but since you can make quite a few that is not too bad to live with.

I generally agree on your assessments, with the exceptions noted below. I don’t know that they need to be balanced though, as long as the overall factions are. If a player wants to make an overpowered faction, well, that’s up to them really. IF the final game gives us 8+ well balanced, differentiated factions, I’m happy. Not every ability has to be OP, as long as each faction has at least one individual characteristic that is powerful.

 Defensive: I’d never pick this one. City defences are (or at least should be) too rare for this to stack up to much.

 Flesh Bound Tome:  Cull the Weak is awesome!!! I play Magnar with just heroes and cheap slave spearmen. Whenever a hero gets weak you just pop a slave to get mana and health.

 One Handed Spears:  I really like this one, one-handed spears are extremely good.

 Vulnerable to Magic: I think this is currently weak only because the AI doesn’t use magic that much. I find the spell resistance of my opponents highly relevant.

The most logical way to deal with the imbalance is to make the OP abilities more expensive (e.g. 2 or 3 picks).  This is how they deal with it in a lot of other 4X games where you can customize abilities--MOO, MOM, etc.

Otherwise, I wouldn't go tweaking many of the abilities too much, maybe just a few.

OR alternatively make picks for custom faction similar to picks for sovereign:

1 from the following of Enchanters, binding, master scouts, heroic, etc.  

1 from the following weaknesses

you get the idea.

True that one specific monster isn't bad but they become a lot less useful once you get groups of 5 troops in chainmail. If you have plate then they are useless.

Ya a good way to go at it may be to give all factions 3 or 4 points instead of 2 and increase the cost of the better traits to 2 points. I would still like to see a bit better balancing of the tech traits and the like.

Since only single target curses even test against spell resistance it's incredibly easy to ignore. The only really good way to use it is to defend against counterspells.

Thanks for the feedback, there is some great stuff here.  I'm making some tweaks based on it.

Hi Derek are you still in beta 3 then? Or have you moved on to beta 4? Just wondering because if you are still looking at faction differentiation and balancing traits then I might make a few suggestions of my own

edit: what kind of input are you looking for from us at the moment?

YAAAAY!

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

Feedback is going to be difficult to do while we wait for beta 4. Derek is probably working with a very different game already and it is only going to get worse as the devs change and add stuff. As with hunting in the dark, the key is lots of bullets and random firing. 

On

Heroic: Doubles quest XP and grants 50 influence and 1 prestige for completing quests. Unlocks Henchmen, some improved swords and Athican Armor.

One of the best traits. The prestige bonus by itself is worth the point, Henchmen are also awesome. Also unlocks Quest Maps.

Has anyone been able to create a custom faction with Heroic and still recruit Henchmen?  There was another thread where several of us reported that as a bug, but it sounds like some of the OP abilities require more than one trait?

I have Poko8.  I think Henchmen are attached to the Altarian race, NOT the heroic ability.  I think quest maps are to if I remember right, but I could be wrong.

Really good traits need to cost 2 picks, great traits should perhaps cost 3 picks. Of course that means you need to start with 4 or 5 picks. It will make the whole character building more interesting.

They are attached to both heroic, and altarian race (all special units are attached to a race), kind of like how juggs are attached to trogs and great axes.

You can make another race get henchmens (or golems/juggs), but you'd have to make a custom race.

Thanks for listening.

I hope for more modifiers to affect cities, and some modifiers for the magical tech tree as well.

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

Hey Guys, here some more suggestions  for the CUSTOM FACTION

Adepts:                        SUGGESTS:   400 mana or 20% off mana maintenance Cost.    (40 mana and a 7 turn tech just doesnt cut it)

Archers:                       SUGGESTS: do NOT change.   

Assassin Tools:              SUGGESTS: do NOT change. 

Betrayers:                    SUGGEST:  100 to 200 per city level, Influence takes a long time to build.

Binding:                        (haven't tested)

Civics:                          SUGGESTS: Special Building giving  a discount (5-10% / city level)  Rush

Death Worship:            (haven't tested)

Defensive:                   SUGGESTS: +1 defender /city level   OR Guardian improvement is GREATLY improved (double)

Enchanters:                 SUGGESTS:  add missing Lightning jewelry (1 and 3) , + Resist DAZE (or chaos) from lightning atk)

                                  SUGGESTS: Add Enchanted GOLEM , IMPROVED Guardian Statue

                                  SUGGESTS: Move Monolith to general use  30 mana-30 Turns- MAX 30 hex away from your closest city)

                                                  a Temporary Claiming pole, that you can replace with your pioneer (to make it permanent and

                                                  granting it a small atk )  Can be recasted on the same spot

Flesh Bound Tome:       (haven't tested)

Great Axes:                 SUGGESTS:  Could also use a side ability: CLEAVE (see AD&D)

Great hammers:          SUGGESTS:  Could also use a side ability: KNOCK DOWN (resist)

Guile:                         SUGGESTS:  Have the the treaties  be affected by this (perceived value of Economic/trade)

                                  SUGGESTS: Allow UNLIMITED Missionary Hall

Heroic:                       SUGGESTS: do NOT change. 

Legacy Of Serrene:      SUGGESTS:  Fix war Horse being NOT available to heroes

Lucky:                        SUGGESTS:  2% Chance Enemy fumble and hits themselves (resist or take damage)

Masterscouts:             SUGGESTS: ADJACENT AGGRO at 25%   (one quarter normal)

Mastersmith:              SUGGESTS:  Additional 20% efficiency on Standard gear (armor and weapon)

One Handed Spears:    SUGGEST:  REPLACE BY  Pole Arms  +  Long reach (Basing this unit grant this unit a FREE SWING Prior atk)

Quick:                       SUGGESTS:  3 if Encumbrance Under 40,  2 If encumbrance is 40-80 (making it 0)   1 if encumbrance 81-100 (making it -3)

Scholars:                   SUGGESTS: Allows UNLIMITED Scholar Guild at 30% instead of 25)

Slavelords:                 (haven't tested)

Wanderlust:              SUGGESTS:  Heroes get +1 move, FREE scout movement and +1 Vision (stacking)

Warmachine:             SUGGESTS:  EARLY access to small SIEGE weapons (balista) , Replaces Archers in cities +

                                  deals preventive pierce damage similar to wall of fire, but less)

Warriorcaste + warrior   SUGGEST:  Can wield 2handed weapon with a shield - Units  Starts at level 2

My 2 Guildar

also having some things change a tiny bit with either empire or kingdom would be nicely interesting (Civics giving a building for empire that rushes faster, but for kingdom it makes you construct buildings faster

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

Thanks for your comprehensive Analysis, and for starting this excellent Discussion thread, DSRaider! 

I am coming a little late to the Party (to this Discussion thread, that is); because since Beta3, v0.915 came out, I have only been playing the 8 standard kingdoms/empires.  But now that I am ready to try a customized race, it is really nice to have all this great information, neatly summarized in one place.           Thanks, again!

BTW, for what it's worth, for my first custom kingdom, I am going to avoid what I think are the most over-powered (worst) Faction Traits.  Those would be (IMO): Binding, Death Worship, MasterScouts, and Enchanters.  I am avoiding those, not only because I think they are too over-powered, but also because I suspect they will probably be "toned down" when the Beta 4 comes out.  (Okay -- maybe they will, and maybe they won't.  I hope they are.)  Anyways, they don't appeal to me either, in terms of my style of play.  On the other hand, I will probably use: Heroic, Quick, and Scholars (by also taking on the liability of "Vulnerable to Magic"). 

And now I know (see Frogboy's announcement regarding the Beta 4 not coming out until at least July) that I will have plenty of time to play around with the existing features!   Happy, happy, Joy, joy ...   

Pssst. don't listen to this idiot, think I was drunk or something (my meds are making me weird when I get tired ;))

Sincerely
~ Kongdej