kilijan

Join Date 02/2008

[0.914 More feedback]

Today I played a normal difficulty game vs 3 other computer players. From the moment I met my first empire we were at war and it hasn't stopped since then. I built all of 3 cities (because I had no other places to build any) before I got to war. By the time I met my first empire my rating was 19, his rating was 68. He immediately declared war on me. Since then I have met a 2nd empire and their rating is more than 3x my rating at all times.

They are teching faster than I am, I can tell because they have 5 man groups now. I got some in a dialog to find out he had twice the population size and over 3 times the amount of income I did per turn. I am not sure how they can be SO FAR AHEAD Of me in every aspect of the game, however I have found some pretty good indications of why this definately is.

Firstly, their cities and outposts are not beign attacked by monsters, and monsters are ALL OVER Their territory. I think the best part was when I took a city of theirs of which a Ravenous Harridan spider den was parked right next to it. The VERY next turn the spider left his den to attack my city. But of course hes perfectly fine letting the computer stay there. This needs to stop. Probalby the most disgusting thing was that 2 turns later a earth elemental who had a sanctum 4 squares from my city which was in his territory because his outpost near it hadn't been destroyed yet, went out of its way to attack ME in the city I just took. NEver mind the outpost right next to the sanctum. No, just b-line for the player and impale himself on my city. This needs to be addressed.

When I started attacking their cities they had outposts all over the place, sometimes right next to each other and next to random wandering monsters and dens, and the outposts stayed here untouched. This needs to change. The computer can't be allowed to expand with impunity when I can't even have a road that goes by a drake without him ganking anything that is unlucky enough to run out of movement points right next to it (thanks for that by the way, Now i have ot micro manage movement.

Secondly, the road system in this game needs to be looked at. I either need direct control of where roads will be placed, OR enemy monsters and armies need to not benefit from the incredible movement speeds they give them. While I think roads are absolutely necessary to carry troops all over the world at a speed that makes them practical the computer is using it to cherry pick my least defended city and get there before I even see them approaching.

Thirdly, I purposely went very military oriented on this game just to make sure that my score was close enough that I might have some period of peace between me and the first empire I found. I was broke the entire game because everything was put into troop wages. This was all well and dandy until the computer rolled up on me with 2 stacks of 6 of their best armored and armed troops when I would have been broke trying to field that. What the hell is going on there? The computer is totally out of control in this game. It is not fun to be contantly at war with someone who has some sort of HUGE advantage over me that I can't compete with. I was able to take out the stacks with my 2 heroes and 3 inferior troops very narrowly.

Money and gear: Might as well remove it if you're going to be so stingy with it. Seriously, I'm so broke trying to field units enough to defend myself that I haven't been able to afford to by my 2nd hero ANY leather armor what so ever. Its rediculously expensive for the way the economy being overly tuned downward in the beginning of the game. Money needs to be more available earlier and later I believe the economy is just right, I go broke equipping one hero in light plate and i'm ok with that. It forces me to make a choice in priority.

Computer attack: The computer needs to stop going out of its way to run deep into your territory past other cities to attack the one that is the least defended. While this is an OBVIOUS tactical advantage, the computer needs to pretend like it doesnt know everything about where my stuff is. I have a fog of war which keeps my knowledge of the enemy cities to almost nothing. When I approach I don't know if i'm going to encounter the bulwark of the enemy army or a city taht is undefended. The computer needs to stop cheating and basically making life miserable for the players because we can't afford to defend our deepest cities the most heavily just to encourage the computer to attack our cities on the border with them. Seriously.. The allies didn't win world war 2 by going, we just ran 250,000 soldiers and tanks to berlin and took it because they had deployed their soldiers on the beaches of normandy. Have some common sense here.

Even though my last couples posts are almost completely negative, its because I feel this is the feedback you need about the beta. I am enjoying the game very much and it is so much better than elemental. You guys are utlimately building a great game that I will play for a long time because its alot of fun. Keep up the good work and I look forward to the next patch and ultimately the release of the game. There are good things coming in the future.

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I don't disagree with any of what you said. I've seen that city thing enough times that it makes me not want to take cities, and the roads thing needs addressed BADLY.

While I agree that a lot of the wage/build times things are a bit askew, we are going to see the city rework in Beta 4, so we may see some really nice changes in that regard then.

As to the focusing on Military tree only, that is not a very viable tactic, I have found. It seems as though you almost universally need Shard Harvesting (from magic), and the first two techs from Civ and the next tech up that gives you Merchant. That gives you shards, income bonuses, and the capacity to build at least something for improving research. From there you can really start focusing on your tree. Similarly, if you go down a different tech tree, it seems like you need to work at least up through Leather Armor in Warfare so that your heroes can be safe until later game.

The roads, though. Oh man. The roads. We badly need to be able to place them AND not have the computer utilize them (no movement bonus on roads in enemy territory). Pretty much every time that I have shut the game off and walked away from my computer has been due to that one thing.

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1. The AI build lots of troops, and will change their tax accordingly to get funds (check the AI cities, sometimes you'll see it at 98% unrest for this reason). You can do this too. Lower your tax to build faster, then raise it when you need gold. It's not what *I* would do, but it's certainly possible to afford a couple of well geared troops. Money is actually really easy to make because of this.

2. Don't buy gear unless you absolutely HAVE to. This is a surefire way to bankrupt yourself. Most of the time, you can get by just fine by hunting monsters and looting lairs, using what you find. Every once in a while you might want a certain item to fill a build, so you'd buy it, or you need to quickly equip someone and can afford it (key point). Most of the time, the shop is there for you to sell junk, not buy them.

3. Never go military heavy from the onset. The ONLY early military tech you want is spear. Maybe horses to scout/hunt faster, but that's it. After that, focus your tech into civic, you want basic techs that give food and production, then go for economics. The farmer market from economics will allow you to field armies with practically no (or very little) tax. Once you've got the infrastructure, go for blacksmithing and squads, basically you want to go from 3 guys with spears to 5 guys with boar spears, ideally designed with some good traits (muscle, fast, toughness). When war breaks out, push for logistic and field 7 of them per unit, ideally with mage robes and a couple of leather armor pieces (but not more than 40% encumbrance). With low tax you can continually crank them out and stab everything to death. (Note that some of this will change next patch since they are balancing unit size techs.)

4. The AI only have FoW cheat if you play on ridiculous difficulty, nothing else. Heck, one of the weak point of the AI is that it doesn't scout as well as humans, that's why it tends to build outposts next to one another (secured one resource only to find another just outside its range). The computer doesn't need to cheat to look at your city filled with defenders and think... can't take that, let's check out what else I can wreck... they'll start with outposts and resources... until they find the cities you mention (A lot of time, they'll actually send you a message saying they are doing this). The solution is obvious... don't let them walk around your territory and cherry pick their targets. Go out and destroy them before they get the chance. Use overland spells if necessary. It seems like you're the one that needs common sense on this topic. If all you want the AI to do is suicide against your steel fortress... I think you might want a different game. Maybe a tower defense game or something.

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I think a clear understanding of the relationship between AI and monsters is a necessity from a playability standpoint - otherwise people are going to get frustrated and quit. Many times I have discovered a nice collection of resources protected by a powerful monster and, by the time I'm strong enough to defeat that monster, the AI has built a city right next to it! I understand that the AI needs a helping hand to put up a challenge, and maybe an alliance between AI and monsters is the best way but - make it a formal alliance - no pretending that the game has "equal opportunity" monsters! Obviously some balance changes would be required, my vote would be defensible outposts - which should make the game more enjoyable for those who prefer a defensive, rather than offensive, style of play.

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LOL - I am formally announcing a political wing lobbying for "equal opportunity for monsters".

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I've played the game quite a bit during this beta over many builds. I have a little experience with some of the aspects of the game. I have experimented with jacking my tax rate up and its not even a pheasible way to play the game. The big point is that the AI obviously isn't doing that or else they wouldnt be able ot build so much.

Just last night I fired up the game again and the AI sat down a city right next to a monster den (which ignored it) but the AI starting city population was 30. My cities start at 5 (i think). I'd like to know why this is happening. I'm playing the game on normal difficulty. This isn't fair since obviously they make more income and grow faster when growing from a base of 30 vs a base of 5.

If i spent all my turns building buildings that increase my growth then I would have no army. This is a sure way to lose my cities to monsters and also be targeted by aggressive AI players. There is a catch 22. Its been my experience that this is by far the hardest parts of the game because later you can field a huge army and easily defend everything.

Also I wasn't teching military only, I was focusing on keeping my military units up and mixing in buildings when I could. I agree that shard harvesting is a must have, almost the first tech in the game you have to have.

I'll be looking forward to "beta 4" or whatever the next itteration will be called.

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Gaunathor

Join Date 04/2006

+170

Quoting kilijan,

reply 5

This isn't fair since obviously they make more income and grow faster when growing from a base of 30 vs a base of 5.

Your capitol starts out with a base population of 30. The base population of your other cities depend on the group size of the pioneer. 3 at the beginning with a max of 9 when you have companies unlocked. I'm certain, that the AI has the same limits as you in that regard.

Quoting kilijan,

reply 5

It definitely is possible. I have already won four games and only when I was testing Magnar was I building an (slave)army. Mind you, I'm not a great player (decent at best), so when I'm capable of winning by using champions only, so should you. It depends entirely on how you play. My currents settings are large map, dense all, normal research, all factions, challenging world and AI difficulty. I'm using only the stock factions/sovereigns for now. No custom builds.

Regarding the "Monsters are ignoring the AI":
I'm reasonably certain, that this is a bug and not a feature. Frogboy mentioned in the changelog thread for 0.915 a bug, where the AI was only seeing the goodie hut, but not the monster on top. It is quite possible that something similar is happening in this case, too. Plus, I have seen the monsters destroy AI cities, outpost and troops plenty of times in the current beta, so it isn't as one-sided as some people make it out to be. I have also been on the receiving end of rampaging monsters, especially a triplet of Umberdroth in my first game (the only time I wished, I had an army), so I can definitely relate to all of you.

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I can agree on that 30-inhabitants-thing. Have seen it several times - ai builds a city right next to my army, 30 inhabitants one turn later. And of course the always funny "get out of my territory"-message. But i don't see this as cheating on behalf of the ai. They actually need it to ever get to do something. It's not like they had a real masterplan or something...

Yes, that road thing. Quite sure something will happen there, but not today. But roadchanges will not save you from overlooking the enemies army or from not having intercept units ready to move out. I would like to see the human player that attacks your border when you let him get past it to attack your inner territory. This is not c&c. And anyways, there is always the possibility of forming a non aggression pact.

On Tech: yes, there are techs you need early and there are techs you don't need early. Yes, going civil early means you have more population and tech bonuses thus more research generated thus less time to research more stuff. Even on small maps the first few civil techs are always great.

Getting beaten: get used to it. If you can be sure to win every game or even territorial skirmish - why play then? Everyone loses a FE-game once in a while. Try finding out what went wrong. Did you ever try to just rush into the enemies direction right from the start? Now that is fun. You either lose the game or win it, all within the first 30 turns. No matter how long it takes afterwards.

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Quoting Kalin,

reply 2

No offense, but it just sounds to me like you need some more time with the game before complaining about various aspects of it. It almost sounds like you're talking about another game because the normal AI couldn't put up a challenge if I was sleep walking. But let me address a couple of your points:

1. The AI build lots of troops, and will change their tax accordingly to get funds (check the AI cities, sometimes you'll see it at 98% unrest for this reason). You can do this too. Lower your tax to build faster, then raise it when you need gold. It's not what *I* would do, but it's certainly possible to afford a couple of well geared troops. Money is actually really easy to make because of this.

2. Don't buy gear unless you absolutely HAVE to. This is a surefire way to bankrupt yourself. Most of the time, you can get by just fine by hunting monsters and looting lairs, using what you find. Every once in a while you might want a certain item to fill a build, so you'd buy it, or you need to quickly equip someone and can afford it (key point). Most of the time, the shop is there for you to sell junk, not buy them.

3. Never go military heavy from the onset. The ONLY early military tech you want is spear. Maybe horses to scout/hunt faster, but that's it. After that, focus your tech into civic, you want basic techs that give food and production, then go for economics. The farmer market from economics will allow you to field armies with practically no (or very little) tax. Once you've got the infrastructure, go for blacksmithing and squads, basically you want to go from 3 guys with spears to 5 guys with boar spears, ideally designed with some good traits (muscle, fast, toughness). When war breaks out, push for logistic and field 7 of them per unit, ideally with mage robes and a couple of leather armor pieces (but not more than 40% encumbrance). With low tax you can continually crank them out and stab everything to death. (Note that some of this will change next patch since they are balancing unit size techs.)

4. The AI only have FoW cheat if you play on ridiculous difficulty, nothing else. Heck, one of the weak point of the AI is that it doesn't scout as well as humans, that's why it tends to build outposts next to one another (secured one resource only to find another just outside its range). The computer doesn't need to cheat to look at your city filled with defenders and think... can't take that, let's check out what else I can wreck... they'll start with outposts and resources... until they find the cities you mention (A lot of time, they'll actually send you a message saying they are doing this). The solution is obvious... don't let them walk around your territory and cherry pick their targets. Go out and destroy them before they get the chance. Use overland spells if necessary. It seems like you're the one that needs common sense on this topic. If all you want the AI to do is suicide against your steel fortress... I think you might want a different game. Maybe a tower defense game or something.

No offense taken, but I agree with the OP and I'm playing on Easy, played WoM, and have been with this game's beta for its entirety. For the most part, I follow your advice and routinely die quickly playing on Easy. Same story as OP: the first NPC is always way stronger than I am, and the second is usually me x 2.

I then re-read your items two and three and immediately think, "why is there a recipe for winning?" By that I mean, why is a deviation from a set recommended path so destructive to one's kingdom/empire? Should the choices not add variety? As of now, I feel they just confuse the player into selecting the "wrong" choice.

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Quoting estefaz,

reply 7

I don't think you understand why the average player enjoys videogames. I've been playing this beta since it was released to WOM players (I bought the original a couple months after it first came out), and while I admit pre-.913 the AI was a bit of a pushover, the difficulty as-is is entirely too punishing. Granted, some of that is buggy behavior, but when I start a game I want to know I will have a reasonable chance of winning, as long as I don't make any egregiously stupid decisions.

This isn't Demon's Souls 4X, and if that's the game FE becomes then I will never play it again. I don't want to be punished for not knowing in advance that the fog-of-war I'm sending my sovereign to explore is within the aggro radius of a Drake; nor do I want to lose the game because I decided to put off researching Spearmen until turn 25, instead of starting it on turn 1. This is why I do not play the game on Hard. If you want to be forced to play the perfect game, every game, and STILL have a chance of losing, then turn the difficulty level up to 11 and have a blast. Realize, though, that while you greatly enjoy nail-bitingly hard gameplay, there are a good number of people who are not so inclined, and don't try to insinuate (or flat-out state) that just because someone doesn't want to be punished in a single-player game, that means they are automatically an inferior player.

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