[.913] Feedback on the slowdown of Champion leveling

By on May 7, 2012 5:34:09 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

StillSingle

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Hi, don't know how many of you guys have noticed, but beteen .912 and .913, there has been a large increase in the XP needed for champions to level up.

I like this change as it has brought the Sov and champions more into line with how powerful trained units are at any one time.  I can no longer uber level my Sov and go solo entire nations!!

I don't like the change because now I'm picking up items that require lvl 13 or 15, and not getting to use them before I win the game (this includes my latest game on Hard difficulty, my highest champ lvl was 9.....).

I have no idea what to change, I want to use the shiny, but that would let me go back to soloing entire nations with my Sov again.....

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May 7, 2012 7:30:08 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Imho, the level of items should take into account the size of the map and other relevant settings that affect the length of a game. If I'm playing on a tiny map with fast settings, my sov is never going to get above maybe level 8 unless I go out of my way to make it so. But if I'm playing on a medium map with normal settings, I usually get above level 11.

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May 7, 2012 9:30:40 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I personally liked the idea that the sovs were so mighty (hence the original title "Elemental: War of Magic" as opposed to "War that includes some Magic but is mostly unmagical")...

Anyway, to my idea in http://forums.elementalgame.com/424106 I also propose a slider for items--do you want epic requirments for high end stuff or not?  If you do, slide it to high, if you don't slide it to low requirements, and each of us can have a wonderful game based on our preferences during world setup!

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May 7, 2012 11:04:38 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Heavenfall,
Imho, the level of items should take into account the size of the map and other relevant settings that affect the length of a game. If I'm playing on a tiny map with fast settings, my sov is never going to get above maybe level 8 unless I go out of my way to make it so. But if I'm playing on a medium map with normal settings, I usually get above level 11.

 

I strongly agree with Heaven.  <MapType> needs a tag for an XP multiplier, similar to the <ResearchRateMultiplier> tag, to tailor the XP gain to the size of the map.

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May 7, 2012 1:14:08 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Anything that improves balance is good.

Concerning the good point about the relationship between map size and potential hero experience, I don't think that it's necessary to include an XP boost, because on tiny maps that level 15 maul, while not usable, will still be worth a fair amount to sell. Being on a tiny map simply makes that decision between hoarding high-level equipment and selling it off a bit easier.

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May 7, 2012 1:21:59 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Agree with OP and also agree with Heavenfall's take on the map size dictating some item levels.

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May 7, 2012 1:47:19 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Das123,
Agree with OP and also agree with Heavenfall's take on the map size dictating some item levels.

This would seem like an excellent next step.

While I have been really enjoying .913 (Magic user, challenging, large map), it is a bit frustrating to not be able to get to the higher level spells.  Since the leveling rewards are now random no matter what path you take, it can take 3 or 4 levels to even get a magic choice.  It would be really helpful if the Path choices were always given at level 1 and at least one choice related to your chosen path was given on each succeeding level.

As far as picking up items goes, I haven't been finding a lot that I can't use.  Level 9 was the highest I've come up with (Sov just made 9 & everyone else is a 7 or 8), but I've been so busy with fighting war I haven't had time to go looking for higher level monsters or quests.

I also think 10% of value kind of ruins the fun of getting loot.  If nothing else change the value to a lower number so it's not so demoralizing to sell a $1500 magical axe for $150. 

 

 

 

 

 

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May 7, 2012 1:51:21 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting ,
      ...  

I like this change as it has brought the Sov and champions more into line with how powerful trained units are at any one time.  I can no longer uber level my Sov and go solo entire nations!!

The Original Poster has nicely summarized the pluses and minuses associated with this change.  For my part, I really think the Plus (see quote above) far outweighs the Minus.  Of course it all comes down to balance; and some folks may prefer the Uber-Sov's and Uber-Champ's, but I really think this change is a big step in the right direction !

And then there is the excellent suggestion by Ensais: (paraphrased) -- add a slider for this effect, so that if you want epic requirements for high-end goodies, you can adjust it to "high"; or if you don't, you can slide it to "low".  This degree of customization would really be nice!  However, absent a slider to customize this feature, I would leave it as changed in v0.913, as opposed to the way it was previously.       On balance, it is significantly improved in v.0913, IMO. 

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May 7, 2012 3:50:50 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Slowing down sovereign leveling is also having a pretty dramatic impact on faction prestige, which is affecting overall empire growth. I have a more indept discussion of that here: http://forums.elementalgame.com/424125

 

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May 7, 2012 4:22:31 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

This has greatly hurt me more than it has the AI's so..  

 

I would agree to HeavenFall's ideas above.   

 

To OrionM42 -  it's even worse you only get $15 for that $1500 axe not $150...  

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May 7, 2012 5:15:48 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Supreme Shogun,

To OrionM42 -  it's even worse you only get $15 for that $1500 axe not $150...  

Supreme Shogun, your comment has surprised me very much !   You are saying that you are only getting 1% of the listed value of an item, when you sell it in the shop ???   In the game I am currently playing, I can still get 10% of the listed value of an item, if I sell it.   Hmmmmm ...  It's true, that I am playing my current game on the Beginner level (which is something of a sad story in its own right - but setting that aside  )  however, I am still getting 10% of the listed value, for items that I sell.  

I wonder if selling values have, now (in v0.913),  ALSO  been adjusted, depending on the level of difficulty that you are playing on.  Has anybody else noticed this ?

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May 7, 2012 6:38:51 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting OrionM42,
Quoting Supreme Shogun, reply 9
To OrionM42 -  it's even worse you only get $15 for that $1500 axe not $150...  


Supreme Shogun, your comment has surprised me very much !   You are saying that you are only getting 1% of the listed value of an item, when you sell it in the shop ???   In the game I am currently playing, I can still get 10% of the listed value of an item, if I sell it.   Hmmmmm ...  It's true, that I am playing my current game on the Beginner level (which is something of a sad story in its own right - but setting that aside  )  however, I am still getting 10% of the listed value, for items that I sell.  

I wonder if selling values have, now (in v0.913),  ALSO  been adjusted, depending on the level of difficulty that you are playing on.  Has anybody else noticed this ?

I think Supreme Shogun failed math .....I'm playing on Challenging & it's 10% (as I said in my post above).

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May 7, 2012 11:07:12 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting scifi1950,

I also think 10% of value kind of ruins the fun of getting loot.  If nothing else change the value to a lower number so it's not so demoralizing to sell a $1500 magical axe for $150. 

 

 

Very heartily seconded!  It is true that selling loot in earlier versions easily made large amounts of money - but I think the solution should fall more along the lines of reducing the value of "vendor trash" like wolf pelts, and common nonmagical items like spears.  Anyway, I don't see anything wrong with having an economy dependent on looting - this is a fantasy game, after all (and a 50% selling price is something of an established convention itself now).

 

Regarding champion leveling, I've found it still possible to powerlevel if you make regular use of xp boosts - perhaps that means things are working fine - though it might help to move the lvl 12-15 items requirements down a level.

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May 11, 2012 2:25:21 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I've found that a well equipped warrior hero can manage to level up extremely fast if you fight solo. If it's really a problem and you want to use the higher level items, get the Potential line of traits or pick up General for your profession.

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May 11, 2012 2:44:49 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

The real problem to me is the stack XP penalty for champions is too strong for 2 heroes, especially at low levels.

 

 

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May 12, 2012 5:02:21 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Alstein,
The real problem to me is the stack XP penalty for champions is too strong for 2 heroes, especially at low levels.

true

also agree with OP, I like the new level up system, now items should be scaled accordingly

but scaling level requirement to adapt it to map dimension is less useful

small maps => fast games => few items

big maps => long games => more items

otherwise the game loses interest IMHO

 

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May 12, 2012 10:29:10 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I for one found the progression of 0.912 to be Ideal so I'm sad to hear that changed for the worse (still think the problem with normal units is that they cost way to much gildar in upkeep, probably even with the change. Though Warlord and having Verga surrender fixes that...). Will test 0.914 this weekend so I'll see what happens (and if riddiculous is still doable...)

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May 12, 2012 11:39:44 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Hmmm, I like and enjoy more .912 level up sovigan, I find it's less reward and bored of it after fight too many battle yet not level up after 12 to 13 level where I desire go 30 level rather than 12. .912 is far more meaning than .913 for level up sovgain.

Edit: Personal, .912 I had fun level up sov without mod sov's file, but if .913, often wonder better mod sov's file by add magic, ect whatever I need to make useful. it's taken so long to level up over 13 level and unable to get trait I want and desire to make stronger.

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May 13, 2012 4:57:47 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums


They've changed it back to more fast paced leveling in .914.  However, non CHampions (so trained units and summons), only receive half the base XP for each fight.

However, they have coupled the increase in speed leveling with good items being much rarer than they were in .912 (at least in the couple of games I played this weekend).  This meant that I was able to have more abilities (which is cool!!), but not get superpowered till later in the game where the techs for the trained units are able to cope with it a bit better.

Pure mages can still be OP very easily though, even without the cool equipment.  But a pure mage witll only be OP vs non champions, or champions of significantly lower levels due to debuffs not being as easy to apply (you only gain 2 mastery per level, with 60? base mastery.  therefore before modifiers, equal level champions the mage only has a 60% chance of debuffing the other.

Overall I like.  And by the end of the game when you are picking up epic loot, it is AWESOME

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