Permanent disabilities for battle deaths: yes or no?

By on April 21, 2012 10:54:52 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Glazunov1

Join Date 08/2010
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This game mechanism frankly puzzles me.  I've built up a champion over time with what seem like small, incremental improvements, for the most part--and then they die in battle, only to end up with a a permanent and frequently more aggressive malus.  The moral would seem to be, never enter a battle that there's any possibility of losing.  But as most of us like to try our luck and skill in them--it's after all one reason we play games at all levels--this seems unproductive.

 

What do you think?  And do you have any suggestions for how awarding penalties might be improved?  Here, for what they're worth, are a couple of mine:

 

A) Retire the champion for X turns to the nearest friendly city for a lengthy recuperation.  No punishment while they're out of service, except they're really out of service.  You can't use them for a given term.

 

Provide the same severe penalty, but make it temporary.

 

C) Remove the last leveled up improvement from the corpse.  Or, remove the entire level.  Midway up through level 8?  Sorry, but they're back at the bottom of level 7.

 

Over to you.

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April 21, 2012 11:06:44 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I completely agree, this mechanic seems way too harsh and forces you into a very cautious style of play. I think there should definetely be a penatly but it should be much lighter.

Of the options suggested above, option A would be my favourite. That or make the heal injury potions available from any city (or allow a structure to be built that provides them, such as an alchemists) and make them fairly pricey.

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April 21, 2012 11:24:42 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Harsh penalties that are more feasible to get rid of. That is the best design.

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April 21, 2012 11:29:55 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

We had immortal champions, and it was absolute shit. It did not work. All you needed to do was equip them and autoresolve every fight until you won.

I like the current injury system, but I think there should be more ways to get rid of injuries. For example, a level 4 spell that removes a random injury, costs 250 mana, researchable.

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April 21, 2012 11:58:49 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Maybe when you level up instead of choosing a trait you could choose to remove a negative one, that way you can get rid of the really bad injuries. Also a limit of 3-4 injuries wouldn't be a bad idea in order to help the AI out.

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April 21, 2012 1:49:21 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

before the injury trait there was 2 options: 1. heroes DIED when they died in battle or 2. they didn't die as long as you had won the battle. 

1. Nobody liked death. Whats the point of investing large amounts of time in a hero only to have him die in some random battle? Doesn't work.

2. This was almost as bad. With no repercussion for sloppy play heroes became unstoppable powerhouses way too fast. There was no need for regular units at all, just a stack of undying heroes.

The injury mechanic forces you to be careful with heroes. They are high risk/reward units  that in later levels and with equipment can become more powerful than any other regular unit but require you to think about using them especially in big battles.When you commit your top level heroes you   are throwing down more power but have more skin in the game as it were.

The injury mechanic is a great balancing tool and the players screamed for something like it in earlier stages of the beta. It forces you to be cautious with them at lower levels as you should be. When a regular unit dies in combat they don't come back, they are dead. When a hero dies, you don't lose your investment in time and money but you get a penalty for careless play. As you should.

Don't tie injury removal to mana either, that just means people with lots of nodes will have ravening unkillable hero armies again. You shouldn't be able to buy your way out of penalties. The level-up removal.....that has some merit, it means that if you got your hero killed, his injury can go away eventually. Its not quick or easy to remove the injury but possible.

That all being said, the AI needs some work on how it uses its heroes. It gets them killed a LOT and never retires or even bothers to accompany them with units often. 

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April 21, 2012 2:08:26 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting DsRaider,
Maybe when you level up instead of choosing a trait you could choose to remove a negative one, that way you can get rid of the really bad injuries. Also a limit of 3-4 injuries wouldn't be a bad idea in order to help the AI out.

 

That's interesting.  If a champion dies in battle and only loses their last perk, dropping to the start of the level below, they can more easily make up the difference in an experienced party.  But if they have to finish the level instead to get the malus removed:

 

They don't benefit from dropping levels and playing "catch up" with less experience; and

 

They lose a perk at the end of the current, just to get rid of the malus they've received.  Certainly tough but not unworkable, and better than getting a really harsh permanent malus that renders a champion unusable.  Just my opinion, but they might as well be dead, in that case.

 

 

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April 21, 2012 2:15:32 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Heavenfall,
     ...

I like the current injury system, but I think there should be more ways to get rid of injuries. For example, a level 4 spell that removes a random injury, costs 250 mana, researchable.

 

There  IS   a partial remedy for this issue, built into  v0.90 !      In my current game, one of the Magic Items that I was able to pick up, from a minor Quest, was called: "Restoration Potion" .  It was described as restoring a hero's health (up to 100 hit points!) immediately,  AND  " removing all injuries champions have from escaping combat".  Sure enough, I passed it along to one of my heros who had suffered a "permanent" injury as a resulf of a deadly, losing, battle, and it  DID  remove his "permanent" injury !  

 

I thought (and think) that this was a great solution, for this issue!  We could still have an honest arguement about whether this is the best way to go; and/or also, how common or rare this particular magic item should be in the game.  However, it is one way to deal with this issue ... and I must say that I am delighted with it !     

 

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April 21, 2012 2:57:02 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

How about some buildings giving heroes a 1% chance of losing a random injury per turn they are stationed in the city, kinda like the Adventurer's Guild gives XP?

 

Usually with my heroes right now, if they get hurt early I just try to get them to lvl 4, path of governor, camp them somewhere unless they get typhoid fever.  IN that case , I just steal spirit (that injury need to go, injuries shouldn't impact other units like that)

 

 

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April 21, 2012 3:44:47 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting OrionM42,

There  IS   a partial remedy for this issue, built into  v0.90 !      In my current game, one of the Magic Items that I was able to pick up, from a minor Quest, was called: "Restoration Potion" .  It was described as restoring a hero's health (up to 100 hit points!) immediately,  AND  " removing all injuries champions have from escaping combat".  Sure enough, I passed it along to one of my heros who had suffered a "permanent" injury as a resulf of a deadly, losing, battle, and it  DID  remove his "permanent" injury !  

 

These were quest results, correct?  Which means they can't be researched, and may not turn up in a given game, at least for the questing human player, leaving a champion you've spent a lot of time working up, never recovering. Perhaps if these could be researched as a high level magic tech.

 

The problem with really punishing the player for being "careless" is that of course they don't have to take it.  They'll either reload before the battle, or grumble and put the game away, possibly for good.  It's one thing for a player to get the result of a careless decision and accept this, and another for the player to perceive themselves as treated unfairly.  It's like the old game mechanic for dealing with pickpocketing, per Baldur's Gate: every person in town suddenly turns hostile.  What does the player do?  They reload.  The solution fails if it causes the player to erase the event.

 

 

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April 21, 2012 3:52:10 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums


well, i need the weekend to play the game to get a handle on the current equipment and unit combinations, but on the whole from playing last night so far, the game is mainly played as a player versus environment game. There isn't a mulitplayer format and i don't know if one is planned for the future. So taking that into account, the ai players don't serve as much of a threat at the moment - the real treat is the badlands areas. By the time i can take out a badlands i can more than easily take out all the ai's.

That being said, i think the nadlands should have more influence on the game and spawn more units that go on ramages through the countryside attacking all players aggressively - i miss the mechanic where stronger monsters gradually appeared and i feel a replacement needs to be found.

You have mosters that have the ability to hurt groups off people. Some monsters should be added that hunt down heroes in a fight and hurt them, showing them why the badlands really still exist. Work more for clearing thos areas out. However, it's currently easier to defeat the ai's then clear those ares out - a good sign that ai's need to be made stronger and better at defending themselves - better at defending themselves is key.

 

After this is done, put in the potion to heal injuries from your heroes - some lesser ones to remove one injury, some minor ones for 2, and then eiether a potion for 3 or heall all injuries.

put in the risk  then enjoy the rewards - it would be nice to have fights where my heroes get knocked down and my units save the day. As it is, my units are meatshields for my flame wave casting mantle of ocean life magic channeling mages of healing fury.

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April 21, 2012 4:06:40 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Glazunov1,


Quoting OrionM42,
reply 7

There  IS   a partial remedy for this issue, built into  v0.90 !      In my current game, one of the Magic Items that I was able to pick up, from a minor Quest, was called: "Restoration Potion" .  It was described as restoring a hero's health (up to 100 hit points!) immediately,  AND  " removing all injuries champions have from escaping combat".  Sure enough, I passed it along to one of my heros who had suffered a "permanent" injury as a resulf of a deadly, losing, battle, and it  DID  remove his "permanent" injury !  



These were quest results, correct?  Which means they can't be researched, and may not turn up in a given game, at least for the questing human player, leaving a champion you've spent a lot of time working up, never recovering. Perhaps if these could be researched as a magic tech.

 

The problem with really punishing the player for being "careless" is that of course they don't have to take it.  They'll either reload before the battle, or grumble and put the game away, possibly for good.  It's one thing for a player to get the result of a careless decision and accept this, and another for the player to perceive themselves as treated unfairly.

As usual, Glazunov1, you make some good points; and have provided a thoughtful commentary.  ( In fact, I am really glad that you started this Discussion Thread; because I think it is an interesting - and occasionally, dismaying, - issue! )

You are correct, that I secured the   Restoration Potion   by completing a simple quest; so it is not researchable, or a guaranteed solution.   It is part of the  Wonderful World of Randomness!   Still, the whole game of FE is so much about randomness, that I still find it to be an agreeable outcome.  Better a random chance, than no chance at all ...

As to " ... really punishing the player for being "careless" ... " , I guess it depends on how you look at it.  IMO, most injuries aren't Game-Breakers -- they are just part of the overall experience.  And, as far as that goes, I (personally) have no problem with reloading a saved game.  ( On the other hand, I know there are some people who hate to do this -- out of Principle. )  The thing is: none of these circumstances/outcomes would cause me to go so far as to put the game away for good.  In fairness, once one gets beyond those of us, who are relatively hardcore 4X or RPG game players, there is another group of more casual players, who may feel more strongly about this ...

In any event, I would be happy to see the discussion continue ... 

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April 21, 2012 5:02:37 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I agree with HeavenFall there should be some way to get rid of these one at a time, slowly, at some cost to the player. Of course, the AI as well.  

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