Analysis of FE spells using MOM categories of spells

By on April 15, 2012 2:51:58 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

luketan

Join Date 12/2009
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I have classified FE 0.86 spells into MOM cataegories of spells (refer to manual pg 39)

Do note that its rough, you can quibble etc, some of the tactical creature enchantments that affect a lot of units negatively like horrific wail can be combat spells?

I followed MOM examples where combat spells = damage spells, healing dispel magic etc.. but doesn't seem consistent.

Under MOM convention, "Special" include spells that teleport (in MOM there was plane shift, word of recall), "overland" damaging spells (in MOM there was ice storm, firestorm) , terrtain affecting spells (in MOM there was change terrain)

The point isn't to debate which particular spell should be where but hopefully this is more to aid analysis to see what is lacking. Someone else can do an analysis by "paths"maybe. 


Creature Summoning

Nature's call (Tactical/ Earth and Life disciple)

Pariden's Return (Tactical/ None)

Summon Earth elemental (Strategic/ Earth Master)

Summon Fire elemental (Strategic/ Fire Master)

Summon Ice elemental (Strategic/ Water Mage)

Summon Shadow Warg (Strategic/ Summoner path)

 

City Enchantments

Antipathy (Strategic/ Death Mage)

Aura of Commerce (Strategic/ None)

Aura of Grace (Strategic/ Air Disciple)

Aura of Might (Strategic/ None)

Aura of Vitality (Strategic/ Life Disciple)

Bless City (Strategic/None)

Blessing of Restoration (Strategic/ None)

Blight (Strategic / None)

Call to Arms (Strategic/ Life master)

Calm (Strategic/ Life & Water Disciple)

Curse City (Strategic/ None)

Earthquake (Strategic/ Earth Archmage)

Gentle Rain (Strategic/ Air and Water Disciple)

Inspiration (Strategic/ None)

Meditation (Strategic/ Water Apprentice)

Sacrifice (Strategic / Death Archmage)

Wall of Fire (Strategic/ Fire Archmage)

 

Creature Enchantments

Annointed by Fire (Strategic/None)

Battle Cry (Tactical/ Air disciple)

Berserk (Tactical/ Death Apprentice)

Blindess (Tactical/ Death Disciple)

Blood curse (Strategic / None)

Blood rage (Strategic / Death archmage)

Burning Blade (Strategic / Fire Disciple)

Celerity (Strategic / Air Archmage)

Chaos (Tactical/ Water Disciple)

Cloak of fear (Strategic/ None)

Confusion (Tactical/ None)

Courage (Strategic/ Life apprentice)

Curse (Tactical/ Death Disciple)

Death Ward (Strategic / Life Archmage)

Defiled Benediction (Strategic / None)

Destiny's Gift (Strategic/ None)

Destiny's Gift (Strategic/ None)

Domination (Tactical/ None)

Escape (Tactical/ None)

Evade (Strategic/ Air apprentice)

Focus (Tactical/ Fire Mage)

Freeze (Strategic/ Water Disciple)

Giant Form (Tactical/ Earth Archmage)

Glyph of Life (Strategic/ Life Apprentice)

Graveseal (tactical/ Death mage)

Growth (Tactical/ Life mage)

Guardian Wind (Tactical/ Air Disciple)

Haste (Tactical/ Air Disciple)

Horrific Wail (Tactical/ Death and Water Disciple)

Hymn of Torax (Strategic/ None)

Infection (Tactical/ Death Apprentice)

Mana Shield (Strategic/ None)

Mantle of Fire (Strategic/ Fire Master)

Mantle of Ocean (Strategic/ Water Master)

Mass curse (Tactical/ Death Master)

Nature's Cloak (Strategic/ Earth Apprentice)

Obscuring Fog (Tactical/ None)

Pandemonium (Tactical/ Water Mage)

Paragon (Strateigc/ None)

Pull of Earth (Tactical/ None)

Regeneration (Strategic/ Life apprentice)

Reprisal (Tactical/ None)

Shrink (Tactical/ Life)

Slow (Tactical/ Water apprentice)

Steal Spirit (Strategic/ None)

Stoneskin (Strategic/ Earth Disciple)

Syphon Strength (Tactical/ Death and Earth Disciple)

Tireless March (Strategic/ Air and Fire Disciple)

Touch of Darkness (Strategic/ None)

Wither (Strategic/ Death Apprentice)

 

Global Enchantments

Crusade (Strategic/ Life Archmage)

Grip of Winter (Stategic/ Water Archmage)

Ineluctable Vision (Strategic/ None)

Morian's Chant (Strategic / None)

Sumoner's Boon (Strategic/ None)

 

 

Combat Spells

 Barbs (Tactical/None)

 Blizzard (Tactical/ Water Master)

 Burning Hands (Tactical/ Fire Apprentice)

Contagion (Tactical/ Air and Death Disciple)

Counterspell (Tactical/ Path of the mage)

Dirge of Ceresa (Tactical/ Death/ Master)

Drain Life (Tactical/ Death Mage)

Feedback (Tactical/ Fire Mage)

Fireball (Tactical/ Fire Mage)

Flame Dart (Tactical/ Fire Disciple)

Fracture (Tactical/ Earth Master)

Heal (Tactical/ Life disciple)

Mana Blast (Tactical/ None)

Shockwave (Tactical/ Earth Mage)

Soulburning (Tactical/ Death and Fire disciple)

Spell Leach (Tactical/ Water Mage)

Stinking Mud (Tactical/ Earth and Water Disciple)

Storm (Tactical/ Air Mage)

Sunder (Tactical/ Earth and Fire Disciple)

Thunderstrike (Tactical/ Air Mage)

Touch of Entropy (Tactical/ Death Master)

Wellspring (Tactical/ Life Master)

 

 

Special Spells

Alchemy (Strategic/None)

Birth of Summer (Strategic/ Earth Archmage)

Bloom of Twilight (Strategic/ Earth Archmage)

Call of Titan (Strategic/ None)

Cloud Walk (Strategic/ Air Master)

Consume (Strategic/ None)

Corruption (Stratgic/Death Disciple)

Create Mountain (Strategic/ Earth Mage)

Curgen's Volcano (Strategic/None)

Destroy Land (Strategic/ Earth Master)

Eyes of Eagle (Strategic/ None)

Falling Star (Strategic/ None)

Firestorm (Strategic/ Fire Archmage)

Infernal Convenant (Tactical/ None)

Inferno (Strategic/ None)

Lower Land (Strategic/ Earth Apprentice)

Pillar of Fire (Strategic/ Fire apprentice)

Raise Land ( Strategic/ Earth apprentice)

Return (Strategic/ None)

Shadow World (Strategic/ None)

Spell of Making (Strategic/ None)

Titan's breath (Tactical/ Air Master)

Tornado (Strategic/ Tornado)

Tremor (Strategic/ Earth Disciple)

Vetrar's Howl (Strategic/ Water Archmage)

 

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April 15, 2012 3:29:57 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

First thoughts

1) Way too little summon spells.

Why isn't there a summon spell for death or Air or Life? Why is Earth's so funky? Don't quite see why Shadow warg isn't death's summoning.

 

2) A lot of the spells have no path requirements!

In fact the most powerful ones like mana blast, mana shield, Pariden's Return (summons titans) don't have it! That's really odd, I don't know if they are offered by quests or tech research, but with no requirements, why would I borther choosing magic traits? I can go combat all the way with my champions and then get mana blast to kill you.


3) We need more global enchantments . I suppose some of the "specials" like shadow world can be classified as global enchatnments but still...

FE's Crusade is a weaker version of Mom's Crusade as it can't be mantained. 

Grip of Winter is a weaker MOm Time stop

Ineluctable Vision = MOM's Nature awareness

Morian's Chant = MoM's herb mastery

Summoner's boon that adds 50% attack to all summoned is nice, except you dont have that many summoned units hence is useless.

MoM had spells like Great unsummoning (unsummons all current active summons, useless now since FE has few summoned units), Tranquility/Life force/Suppress magic/evil omens - anti-magic that attempts to counter certain type (or all in the case of suppress magic) overland spells or make them cost more,  death wish that killed all unit unless they resisted, meteor swarm that hit all units outside cities with direct attacks, spells like chaos surge. doom mastery, holy arms, charm of life, wind mastery, that affected all units with enchantments, , zombie mastery which ressurected defeated units as zombies, etc etc

FE has quite a large number of creature enchatments, just convert some of them into bigger global enchantments ! After all you want to "go big or go home" right?

We all need more countering/ anti/meta-magic. We have Counterspell, Feedback , Spell leech which is a start. But 1) They are all tactical. 2) They work only after the enemy is in the midst of casting a spell and just differ in terms of what happens if enemy doesnt resist , aka spell is disrupted, spell is disrupted and they take damage, spell is disrrupted and you gain mana.

We need different type of counters that work BEFORE and AFTER the spell is cast. Mom had counters like Dispel magic ,Counter Magic , Resist Magic , Spell lock, Spell blast, Disenchant area etc.

Before :

Counter magic  - This is tactical version of global versions like supress magic. Before a spell can be cast the caster must overcome a standing dispel magic field (which can be increased based on the mana you put in it)

Spell lock - Protects unit enchantments making it harder to dispell

Spell blast- See a global spell/ strategic in FE and disrupt it 100% by expanding the same mana. Not relevant in FE because there aren't overland spells that take more than 1 turn to cast. It's a bit strange that in MoM, all Tactical spells cast instantly, while strategic spells take time depending on your skill, while in FE it's the reverse (though doesn't take into account your skill). 

Shouldn't overland spells particularly big global spells take longer? Makes it more epic I think if grip of winter takes a few turns so you have time to see it being prepared and countered. Right now it's instant.. which is weird. Wouldn't it be cool, if such spells would cause the unit casting it (soverign only?) to stop all action for x turns ....

Resist magic/ Magic immunity - protect/increase magic resistance of unit.

After

Dispel magic - This is tactical version of global versions like disjunction . Dispels negative enchatnments on a unit

Disenchant area - same as dispel magic except affects whole tactical battlefield


4) Paths analysis

I didn't do analysis by paths, and for sure not all paths should have the same no of spells in each category, or same effectiveness but, to lack even *one* in each category is clearly wrong. 

Summons are the most obvious. Though global enchatnments and combat spells appears to be another.





 

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April 15, 2012 3:32:24 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Agreed, want more summons.

Agreed, want more global enchantments.

 I really want some funky stuff with the global enchantments. Like in AoW, there were spells that changed the land in your domain. Why not a Water spell that turns your land into a land of frost, where enemies can only move 1 turn, monsters only move rarely, but your food is decreased by 20%.

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April 15, 2012 3:48:33 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

They should really "go bigger" with spells.

The impression I got is that they went that way with damage spells in beta 3 but everyone using that so it's too one dimensional.

Creature enchantments (positvie and negative) should also have versions that affect all units in the tactical combat (there are some now and more coming I think) and also global versions that affect ALL units in the game.

So graveseal is a really great spell that causes critical hits. Give us a version that affects all units in combat. and the ultimate version, affects ALL units in the game if they don't resist! "Great weakening" ? - Powerful? definitely. Make it a Death Archmage spell - Mana cost 500, mana to maintain 20 per turn etc.. Go big!!!

If you going to make magic powerful on global scale, you need counters on global scale as well. Make it a truly BATTLE OF MAGIC on global spell.

Despite all the talk about how magic is important in Elemental series, they have failed to duplicate the required feel, because there is no back and forth of trading spells, countering, dispelling etc on the global level. Just 3 disruption spells in tactical don't cut it .

 I just saw the other day someone suggest a spell that drained the mana pool of the enemy soverign and a developer said he liked it. That's in MoM also  

 

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April 15, 2012 5:44:59 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Heavenfall,
Agreed, want more summons.

Agreed, want more global enchantments.

 I really want some funky stuff with the global enchantments. Like in AoW, there were spells that changed the land in your domain. Why not a Water spell that turns your land into a land of frost, where enemies can only move 1 turn, monsters only move rarely, but your food is decreased by 20%.

 

I like that.  I like the idea of spells that in general may cost less or provide more powerful effects than comparable spells, but with the addition of drawbacks.

 

A fire spell that summons a series of elemental guardians to fight near your cities and outposts, with an increasing chance over time of fire being set to, and consuming a building every X turns.  A death summons that brings in a powerful serpent to aid you in a battle, but leaves the square and its immediate surroundings a swamp afterwards, removing all fertility.  A global earth enchantment that creates stone walls around all your cities and outposts, but in the process causes avalanches with a chance of destroying some mines.  This kind of thing can involve some risk or none, but provides a tradeoff of advantages and disadvantages. 

 

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April 15, 2012 6:31:27 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

One to think about too is how the current spells might be changed to have more uses and options. You might look at the Target Type tag for each spell. It seems that many of those spells do not reach their full potential because they are limited by what they can target. Did you know for example that AoE spells could be set to work even when friendlies are in the area of effect? It can be set to damage them as well or ignore them and only hit enemies. For some reason the spells are set to not be castable instead. I would like to be able to curse my own towns before they are taken by an enemy. I would like to cast Growth on enemy units and Shrink on my units. I would like Raise Mountain to have more options so that I can raise one tile at a time in the case that there is something in the way or have the radius mountain spell destroy that which is there.

 

There is also room to add generic spells like Arcane Arrow that Require Path of the Mage to unlock them. Choosing this Path should have more Path options as you continue to level. The choice should be between making a class of spells more powerful and learning new ones. A Wizard vs. Sorcerer choice to use the D&D analogy. There should also be some very rare books that are available at high levels. Evoker needs to be split up into different elemental categories. We see too many random magic techs in the previews as well. I would rather those were random traits. Water V should open up the possibility to see the Nikarian Book of Ice at some point down the road. Or you could just choose Water Mastery VI to make all water spells do +300%, in total, damage.

 

Summons are important and really they deserve their own Path once you have Mage. 

 

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April 15, 2012 8:41:39 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

 One to think about too is how the current spells might be changed to have more uses and options. You might look at the Target Type tag for each spell. It seems that many of those spells do not reach their full potential because they are limited by what they can target. Did you know for example that AoE spells could be set to work even when friendlies are in the area of effect? It can be set to damage them as well or ignore them and only hit enemies.  

Cool.  You mean is just a matter of changing the tag? Why then isn't the base game taking advantage of that to create diversity? AI issues?

There is also room to add generic spells like Arcane Arrow that Require Path of the Mage to unlock them. Choosing this Path should have more Path options as you continue to level. The choice should be between making a class of spells more powerful and learning new ones. A Wizard vs. Sorcerer choice to use the D&D analogy. There should also be some very rare books that are available at high levels. Evoker needs to be split up into different elemental categories. We see too many random magic techs in the previews as well. I would rather those were random traits. Water V should open up the possibility to see the Nikarian Book of Ice at some point down the road. Or you could just choose Water Mastery VI to make all water spells do +300%, in total, damage.

Fully agree with this. Unlocking spells based on traits from paths makes choices on levelling even more meaningful and differentiates between magic using and warrior champions.

I did a rough count and found >25% of spells have no requirements in terms who can cast it? That's very odd. I presume they come from quests on research on tech tree?

Personally I feel all spells should have a path requirement, whether it is element path (Fire/Water/Earth/Air/Life/Death) or Class path (Path of Mage, Path of Summoner etc).

Sure spells can be unlocked by quests or tech research but they should still need the right path to be castable. eg Mana Blast should require Path of Mage + Evoker etc.

This is to prevent players who only level their champions to be melee gods and still have access to powerful spells.

What do you think?




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April 15, 2012 9:46:04 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I think what we are seeing is some fallout from the Imbue era of Elemental. With the need to Imbue a caster, it made sense for many spells to require no prereqs. As we transition to a game without this mechanic, many spells no longer make sense without some kind of prereq. There are spells such as Obscuring Fog, as a hypothetical example, that should require some magical proclivity to be used. It is not good to allow the spell to all heroes just because it has been researched. I would say the best prereq would be Water Apprentice or Path of the Mage. That would limit its usefulness, but since that tech is purely optional, I see no reason not to do this. I would additionally like some unique spellbooks to be added so that any elemental trait can lead to new books either in leveling or in the tech tree. As a matter of style, the ones that are researched should be more specific to the strategic game and the ones obtained from leveling would be more about the tactical game. The one exception might be a special faction based spell like how Imperials in The Elder Scrolls get Voice of the Emperor. That should be available to every hero. This, combined with the special abilities and spells for each hero would make the magic more complete since we are no longer Imbuing heroes. I am sure we will see more changes along these lines as the game progresses. 

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April 16, 2012 2:50:45 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I never liked the imbue mechanic, it was a way to try to shoehorn the "lore" into the game, and I guess even the most devoted SD fan would say the lore isn't really anything to write home about.

In any case, the problem with the magic tech tree is that it gave you "techs" / spellbooks without regard to what paths you already had ,so you ran into problems of either

a) Allows unlocking of spellbooks without preqs

Allows unlocking of spellbooks that need preqs

 

Currently we have (a) which is problematic leading to powerful magics that could be cast without any preqs. ( Would make parts of the tech tree useless.

 

Again MOM/AOW did it best, you research spells that were based on your abilities..... So if you had death.. your "Tech tree" (feels so unmagical) would have death spellbooks..

 

But i doubt FE is designed for that. Or is it?

 

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April 23, 2012 8:46:20 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Aura of Commerce?

That's about as anti-magical as I can imagine. I hope magic will be magic and economics will be economics...

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April 23, 2012 10:24:19 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Seanw3 wrote:

Did you know for example that AoE spells could be set to work even when friendlies are in the area of effect? It can be set to damage them as well or ignore them and only hit enemies. For some reason the spells are set to not be castable instead. I would like to be able to curse my own towns before they are taken by an enemy. I would like to cast Growth on enemy units and Shrink on my units. I would like Raise Mountain to have more options so that I can raise one tile at a time in the case that there is something in the way or have the radius mountain spell destroy that which is there.

Agreed! They should not be the Health and Safety brigade: they should let us cast in ways that harm both our own and the enemy's troops. It actually allows for more strategic options.

Luketan wrote:

They should really "go bigger" with spells....

So graveseal is a really great spell that causes critical hits. Give us a version that affects all units in combat. and the ultimate version, affects ALL units in the game if they don't resist! "Great weakening" ? - Powerful? definitely. Make it a Death Archmage spell - Mana cost 500, mana to maintain 20 per turn etc.. Go big!!!

If you going to make magic powerful on global scale, you need counters on global scale as well. Make it a truly BATTLE OF MAGIC on global spell.

100% agreed Right now, all the action is focussed on the detail-level: individual units, champions etc. I'd really like to see a higher-level aspect of the game become prominent, with wizards duking it out via global / overland spells.

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