How many city you would build? One or few or spawn as you can?

By on April 6, 2012 9:27:43 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Humility

Join Date 09/2007
+7


I don't know, but I learned lot of this game, not a same as war of magic. Do One city is better than many city? or few? or just many, because I see some A.I

had one city but very high number of people while I had many city but lower number of people even I try to build almost every building in city as I can, even close to river I knew it's great help more people. but what is your wise planing in start of game? One or two or many city?

 

Edit: Oh, what would you pick a building at each city level to 5 as your fav?

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April 6, 2012 10:00:34 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Personally I like games where I have around 3 well developped cities, and meaby 2 cities focused on income.
I usually focus high grain spots for high research cities, and one high material slot for army spewing cities, having 1-2 of research and army spewing devices in a game.

That said, ATM there is no Real penalty to city spamming, so I do that...

Cant answer the lvl 5 building thingie until I get a list of lvl 5 buildings only seen 5 of them since I only ever had one level 5 city.

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

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April 6, 2012 10:14:20 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

There is a population growth penalty for building lots of cities, but I do anyway because inns and such that add growth make up for it by enough, in my opinion.

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April 7, 2012 5:20:47 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

City spam is overpowered in 0.86.

That said the biggest penalty is going from one city to two cities.  Going for a few cities is the worst option at the moment.

Going to single tile cities will further promote city spam and penalise the fewer larger cities options.

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April 7, 2012 5:30:08 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Wouldn't it be nice if a few large cities could match the value of many cities? This part of the game has yet to achieve anything more than spam benefit. That will eventually change.

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April 7, 2012 10:44:10 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums


So single city or few city is not worth it? Personal, nothing wrong if  penalty, but if more city, then more chance unrest? or gave a bouns if single city like make soldier in city much stronger, build faster. ect?

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April 7, 2012 12:10:41 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I am playing a game on hard now with dense monsters. I have three main cities that are around l4, and just settled two new ones. Has worked out fine. Those two new ones get rushed buildings that makes them get going faster.

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April 7, 2012 12:22:08 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Humility,

So single city or few city is not worth it? Personal, nothing wrong if  penalty, but if more city, then more chance unrest? or gave a bouns if single city like make soldier in city much stronger, build faster. ect?

I am not happy with more unrest because you have more cities, but more cities should mean smaller cities, but meaby more trade income, more natural resources, but less wonderfull buildings (high level city stuff).

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

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April 7, 2012 12:41:32 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Currently city spam is the way to play because of how easy it is to get growth buildings like inns that make prestige splitting irrelevant. However the devs have said they are aware of the problem and are making them harder to get.

That said I don't think that will be enough. I would like to see a unrest penalty that increases as you build cities. You would be able to reduce this penalty through tech and improvements. This would prevent players from spamming right off the start and make it an actual strategy while still providing bonuses to players with only a few cities.

Another problem that is tied in with city spam is city steam rolling. Acquiring cities through conquest has no downside as is and allows players to steamroll and build huge empires incredibly quickly, this overemphasizes conquest. Grabbing as many cities as possible is always the way to play. Peace has no real benefits  as the easiest way to increase population, research, and gold is go take some cities.

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April 7, 2012 12:51:18 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting DsRaider,
That said I don't think that will be enough. I would like to see a unrest penalty that increases as you build cities. You would be able to reduce this penalty through tech and improvements. This would prevent players from spamming right off the start and make it an actual strategy while still providing bonuses to players with only a few cities.

Another problem that is tied in with city spam is city steam rolling. Acquiring cities through conquest has no downside as is and allows players to steamroll and build huge empires incredibly quickly, this overemphasizes conquest. Grabbing as many cities as possible is always the way to play. Peace has no real benefits as the easiest way to increase population, research, and gold is go take some cities.

Yes. Reworking unrest so that it increases slighty as you add cities and is greater in conquered cities would add much strategy and stop steamrolling so that the game remains challanging.

That said it is very important that the game doesnt go the way of civilization 5, where building/conquering city #5 is suicide as no matter how good it is it just drains resources.

To counter unrest for # of cities should be techs in the civilization tree and techs in the military tree should reduce unrest from conquered cities.

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April 7, 2012 1:40:53 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums


Paraphrasing the Original Poster (OP): Humility -- One, or Two, or Many Cities ??

Here's One View:  I have played three complete games on a small map.  (I have begun three other games that I either couldn't complete (too many crashes) or was un-inspired to complete.)

I have routinely founded three cities early, and usually a couple more (smaller) settlements in the course of the game.  However, I have routinely used a relatively large number of outposts.  If I build say 5-6 cities, total, my number of outposts by game's end is routinely 6-10.  So, I am running about 1.5 outposts for every city/settlement that I create.

I really like this aspect of the game.  I think outposts are a really good feature; for capturing resources, AND for helping to unite your kingdom, by spreading your network of roads.  (Also, it reduces city micro-management -- Hooray !)  I often garrison outposts, especially those on the "frontier", but routinely find (as my kingdom grows) that I can free up some of the early garrisoning units, for other tasks.  (A lot of the randomly generated maps have enough "choke-points", that some "frontiers" are naturally created, in the course of the game.  BTW, the random map generator has created some GREAT maps!  I really like that aspect of the game too!)  When I do free up early garrisons, I usually take the occasion to seriously upgrade those unit's weapons and/or armor, before assigning new roles to them.  Most often, those units join my "front-line" armies.  Occasionally I de-activate a unit, especially if the population that it adds to an existing city, is enough to cause a key city to "level up" at that point.

I think Stardock has got the city-spamming issue nearly mastered.  You  CAN  still spam cities, if that's your prefered style of play, but the existing dis-incentives mean that you really don't have to.  As for steam-rolling (capturing) enemy cities, I still think that Stardock needs to tweak this issue a bit.  Steam-rolling enemy cities is still too attractive -- no real dis-incentives.  I also think that the flavor of the game would be better served, if it were a tougher call, to absorb enemy settlements, or raze them completely.  In my conception, I would rather keep less than half of captured enemy cities.

I liked your question about which upgrades are preferable to select, when cities level up; but I can't really give a good answer at this point.  For one thing, few of my cities have ever reached level five, as yet ...

I would really like to hear what strategies other players are adopting in this regard, especially on the larger maps ...

 

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April 8, 2012 6:06:36 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums


Thank you, OrionM42! Hmm, maybe I might try one city and use lot of outpost? but I'm not sure how to cover a cost soldier's wage if I garrison outpost, and often enemies destoryed outpost, so I rare use outpost unless it's come with free one outpost milita and one archer or something. LOL! Thing is that I don't know if Outpost help heal land, do they, I see on map with brown spot, not green like city do heal a land? oh well. But biggest problem for me is that I want build city, but I want to build unit to keep up my army, but city only gave you one a time. not one for build and one for unit, that something I would like and make more one city useful, I think more city cover that one city keep up army and other keep up building, then they both taken turn, but if one city failed, other city back up other city. So single city is very hard and diffent, I wonder if you had one city, you get bouns able to build a building and unit same time, by time you had second city, then you lost ability to do both and now only one building or unit at one time??? hmmmm I wonder if Ironclad think of this if they do read this.

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April 8, 2012 7:40:59 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

lost of almshouses and never build a city where food + production don't equal 8 or more. if you conquer such a city, raze it. outpost are way to good and easy.

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April 8, 2012 9:25:53 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting inphobia,
lost of almshouses and never build a city where food + production don't equal 8 or more. if you conquer such a city, raze it. outpost are way to good and easy.
Help me understand, do you mean a title where it's said food and production when your curser mouns cover "settler" button? are you said I need to find title prove 8? most common I find 3*2 or 2*3 or 4*3 or something like that, but never seem 8*8 per title?

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April 8, 2012 11:27:37 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

they need to add up, so 5 food and 3 materials would be fine. but 3 food and 2 materials is a waste of resources. influence is precious, since you want high lvl cities.

i prefer 5 food, 3 materials since those are the easiest to get to lvl 4 and 5, 4food 4materials is double as well with the backery but a lesser option. everything that gives food is great. i've never seen a tile that goes over 5 btw (so 6 food or six materials).

low materials are easier to fix with lots of improvents and your population bonus, low food is very hard to fix.

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April 8, 2012 2:30:20 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting inphobia,


Low materials are easier to fix with lots of improvents and your population bonus, low food is very hard to fix.
  

I tend to agree with Inphobia here.  More food tends to be more important than more materials, especially for your first city or two.  I have, on occasion, (for later settlements) settled for a city-site that only added up to 7 total (such as 4*3).  (This can especially pay off, on sites next to a river, where you can later add "docks" and "water mills" as improvements.)  I have also never seen a city-site that added up to more than 9 total (5*4  - the best; or 4*5).  However, I thought that I had read somewhere, in another forum thread, that it is possible for a city site to be 6*3, or 3*6, but I am not positive about that ...

You raise some good issues, Humility, regarding the limitations of outposts.  As much as I like them, they do have some significant limitations too (as opposed to cities).  Of course, they do not permit you to raise troops there, and you can't build improvements inside them.  Also, I think you are right, that they do not "heal the land" (change dead trees, or barren brown land, to green forest).  However, I don't really think that matters, except for appearance.  And, they DO extend your influence (kingdom boundaries) and your road network (once you have the required civilization technology) ...

On the other hand, resources (to be captured) can include: iron, shards, crystals, gold, grain (!), horses, wargs, drakes (!), apiarys (bee hives), clay pits, orchards, and one or two other things.  That means, that there are a LOT of useful places on a map (including sites where it is NOT possible to build a city), where there will be useful resources to capture. 

Incidently, if you play a human kingdom, the game will tell you that you are NOT able to use "drake lairs" to raise drakes (dragons).  However, that is NOT true!  At least, in the Beta 2, version 0.86, you CAN raise drakes, even with a human kingdom.  This may be a bug/mistake.  Perhaps it will be corrected in the Beta 3, which is due to be available around April 12.  But I would continue to hope that human kingdoms will be able to raise drakes, if they build a city or outpost in the vicinity of a drake lair.  In any event, outposts are a good tool to use, in many cases.  (Remember, your Attack and Defense capabilities are also raised by +25%, within your own kingdom boundaries.) 

Thanks for starting this discussion thread, Humility!  I hope we hear more views ... 

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April 8, 2012 10:24:29 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I've always been a city spammer for as long as I've been playing 4X games (which is...as long as they've been around). It's not the best strategy for a lot of games, but I really like the first three Xs (eXplore, eXpand, eXploit). I also tend to be a non-fighter in 4X games when possible; that is, I'll try to make myself strong enough to discourage the AI elements from attacking me, they chase after a non-conquering victory condition (if one exists).

(The interesting thing with EFE 0.86 is that it's made me a bit more bloodthirsty. Since the AIs seem pretty stuck on an arms-race/attack mindset, I've gotten more preemptive about attack them. But I digress.)

I like the outpost concept (which is straight out of FFH2 -- one of the factions there could only build a few 'real' cities but could build as many outposts as it liked). It's a good counterbalance to the "where the heck are any grain squares?" problem of founding cities, and, as noted above, outposts are generally zero-maintenance, and losing one doesn't generally set you back any more than the loss of those resources.

I'll be interesting to see how EFE plays with one-square cities, though I'm plenty used to that from FFH2.  ..bruce..

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April 9, 2012 2:44:57 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I play on the ridiculous difficulty all the time now, and always begin with one city founded by the sovereign, and another town nearby on whatever 3/3 food/material or better tiles.  Spawn a couple militias, then storm the nearest NPC towns.  I generally keep conquering until two or three enemies are gone, and thus I end up with at least 5 towns, with a nice bonus of 4 towers of dominions (1 mine, 3 from NPC towns).  Keep exploring some more, grab more shards, size up enemies, buff all champions and militias, add a few more militias or better units, and then rush a couple more enemies until they fall.  Now I'm at a minimum of 7 towns.  Capitol and rear/safer/unthreatened towns then focus more on research/gildar if feasible (had enough food on tile).  Keep going like the above, and game's over right before or a bit after capitol's lvl 4 city.  I fund it all from selling loot, and the more costly troops can be quickly built in much better developed towns of fallen enemy capitols  

So it's great to have lots of towns, popping out tons of troops, but in the beginning, two's enough for me (until the first kill heh)

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April 9, 2012 2:31:49 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Personally I like a lot of cities and am against artificial mechanics that try to limit this. 

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April 9, 2012 3:24:16 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Bellack,
Personally I like a lot of cities and am against artificial mechanics that try to limit this.

Agree, It's important though to prevent steamrolling or smaller kingdoms unable to defend themselves against larger ones.

A system of diminishing returns on # of cities would be best.

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April 9, 2012 3:52:52 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Stupidity10,

Quoting Bellack, reply 18Personally I like a lot of cities and am against artificial mechanics that try to limit this.

Agree, It's important though to prevent steamrolling or smaller kingdoms unable to defend themselves against larger ones.

A system of diminishing returns on # of cities would be best.

I think that it should be a tactic to choose between a lot of cities and a few cities, because I do not like having 1 trillion cities that I need to keep track of, I want to "Slowly" expand my empire, also I am not in favor of game mechanics that favor extremely quick expansions, due  to it leaving out most of the options, the current mechanic at least favor you wait a few turns before expanding, but after turn 50 the game mechanics tells you to just build cities everywhere, especially since you have so low prestige in the start of the game, but so "many" buildings that improve growth in other ways, that is per town and free of maintenance.

It is a walk of balance between what the players want and what the developers like, and someone is always going to be unsatisfied

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

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April 9, 2012 3:53:57 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting Stupidity10,



Quoting Bellack,
reply 18
Personally I like a lot of cities and am against artificial mechanics that try to limit this.


Agree, It's important though to prevent steamrolling or smaller kingdoms unable to defend themselves against larger ones.

A system of diminishing returns on # of cities would be best.

I can go for that but only to a point.

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April 9, 2012 4:17:50 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Basically you can choose to stay at one city for a time ....

but once you build your second city, you should be prepared to city spam like hell, because after you build your second city, spamming is definitely worth it

---------------

 

If diminishing returns is even possible, that would be a good way to do it.

 

So building a second city increases your overall power by 50%, while going from 10 cities to 11 cities only increases your power by say, 9%.

Whereas now its the reverse ... that the penalty is a diminishing return.

 

I would far rather have the benefit to be a diminishing return, but alas this would be hard to do I think

 

Perhaps simply have the "Growth mechanic" the opposite of what it is now?

Perhaps having growth penalties starting out really lOW ... and then increasing somewhat exponentially ... would create diminishing returns?

More cities should always have *some* type of benefit though, so this is a very dangerous and narrow path we seek

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April 9, 2012 5:51:02 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I like to build 4-6 good citys. since you need a tile that perduces grain now that is about all the qulaity spots you can get.

spaming pore qulity citys is to much of a drain on the treshery

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April 9, 2012 6:38:17 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting DsRaider,
Currently city spam is the way to play because of how easy it is to get growth buildings like inns that make prestige splitting irrelevant. However the devs have said they are aware of the problem and are making them harder to get.

That said I don't think that will be enough. I would like to see a unrest penalty that increases as you build cities. You would be able to reduce this penalty through tech and improvements. This would prevent players from spamming right off the start and make it an actual strategy while still providing bonuses to players with only a few cities.

Another problem that is tied in with city spam is city steam rolling. Acquiring cities through conquest has no downside as is and allows players to steamroll and build huge empires incredibly quickly, this overemphasizes conquest. Grabbing as many cities as possible is always the way to play. Peace has no real benefits  as the easiest way to increase population, research, and gold is go take some cities.

I think that the taxation production penalty is essentially the same as an unrest penalty, so it seems as if adding unrest is really adding an additional production penalty as the number of cities incresaes.

I think that the growth penalty for city spam can become mroe effective if the growth boost buildings like inns, instead of adding a concrete number of growth like 0.5, adds a percentage increase over the base prestige 'growth' rate. Thus, maybe inns add 50% prestige instead of 0.5 prestige.

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April 9, 2012 7:48:12 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

ATM (as in my current game) the biggest penalty to city spam is the interface can only handle so many cities before stopping to show them to the left

Edit: Funny how the game crashed as I was pointing this out

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

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