Who's still running Windows XP?

By on March 18, 2012 1:05:43 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001
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As some of you may know, 32-bit Windows XP users only see 2GB of memory no matter how much memory they have installed.

Windows 7 users see 3GB of memory IF they're running a 32-bit version and 4GB if they're running 64-bit -- as far as Fallen Enchantress is concerned (native 64-bit programs can see effectively unlimited amounts of memory).

The #1 thing holding us back on having "more" stuff is memory.  We've been optimizing memory a lot in the past month so that we can stuff more but it sure would be nice to have even another 500 megs to play with.

If you are using Windows XP, I would really recommend upgrading to Windows 7 soon.  FE will probably be the last game we make that supports XP.

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August 13, 2012 3:35:36 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting GFireflyE,
"It's a TRAP!"

Windows 8.... ....almost lost my lunch.

I'll be getting win 7 before win 8 and will ONLY be getting win 7 if I'm satisfied with the way I can change the settings in it. Will definately be skipping win 8. Don't like the 'tablet' OS AT ALL. If I wanted a tablet, I'd BUY a tablet. If tabelt OS is the way of the future, then I'm going CONSOLE. (there I said it... 

You've been misinformed, Windows 8 is most definitely a desktop OS, not primarily tablet. People always freak out because the start screen's design optimizes touch in addition to mouse/keyboard. So what?

I use the Windows 8 x64 beta as my primary OS (for home AND work). The main difference (from the user's perspective) is that the "start" orb has been replaced by a more elegant system. I hit the "windows" key and type in whatever I'm searching for. The screen fills with the search results in a nice, 2D plane that is easy to scan with my eyes. I can scroll the results with the mouse wheel. Using the up-down arrow keys, I can select a category such as files/apps/settings, or even get search results from applications (since the OS now allows apps to integrate their own searches into Windows' results). It is a much nicer experience than search in Win7, and worlds away from actually dragging the mouse around the little text menus to find what I'm looking for the XP way. At no point do I touch my monitor -- I don't even have a touch-screen.

Windows 8 is even better from the perspective of a software developer. Like I mentioned, the OS exposes certain contracts (like search) that allow apps to integrate their features more fully into the OS. Windows 8 also introduces the Windows Runtime, which is the biggest change to the underlying Windows architecture since, I believe, NT. As a .Net developer, RT means I will have access to native APIs that people write without having to jump through any hoops. But I understand that RT also exposes a much more elegant programming model for native (C++) developers than is available in previous versions of Windows.

Windows 8 also performs better. Since Vista, each successive version of Windows has been/is going to optimize memory use at the Kernel level. Windows 7 and 8 are the first OS's in Microsoft's history to actually reduce system requirements compared to their predecessors. This trend will continue.

I wish people would put aside their petty prejudices. Stop taking for granted the hard work of thousands of highly intelligent people, just because it's fun to hate an "evil" success like Microsoft.

 

Edit:

If you're a "poor student" who can't afford new software, then sign up for Dreamspark:

https://www.dreamspark.com/Default.aspx

I know that Microsoft has offered Windows 7 for free through there. They may have stopped for now to encourage students to try the Windows 8 preview (which is free for everyone right now) and will probably offer the pro version to students for free after it's released.

Being a "big evil monopoly", Microsoft exerts their predatory corporate dominance by giving away tons of free stuff to everyone. They especially dote upon small businesses and students. Truly this is an unfair abuse of their market share and they should be sued by the government again. </sarcasm>

Well, that takes care of the software part of the problem. 

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August 15, 2012 2:20:04 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Loved XP, great OS, lasted ages, but now is the time for Win 7 64bit, and it's even more rock solid.

Home premium is $100 OEM from NewEgg  $140 for pro if you must.  It's silly to make up weak excuses for not upgrading.  Financial hardship is the only excuse and if you're on high speed internet and have time to putz around on gaming forums, I question the hardship angle and have to wonder about your priorities.  Mine are having a solid gaming rig and playing the heck out of quality games.  If you're a starving student, maybe you shouldn't be playing so many games and visiting gaming forums - focus on school so you can afford better hardware some day - get a summer job.

I don't want quality gaming held back because of people's silly attitudes (MS is the devil!  really!) or desire to stay in the tecnnological stone age.  MS will eventually rescue the rest of us by obsoleting XP entirely but it's a ways down the road.

PC gaming suffers in so many ways.  Need sales, have to sell to people with ancient hardware.  Need to push tech but can't due to 10 year spread on hardware.  Should be pushing 64 bit but can't due to MS haters thinking they should magically get OS software out of thin air or for free.  You'll pay $60 for 1 premium game, more for a console game, and then cry about $100 for the OS that runs everything and lasts for years of 24/7 operation with free maint updates forever.

If any of the hardship types out there happen to be cigarette smokers paying $60 per carton of cigs...just don't even speak, instead congratulate yourself for being a moron who pays out the nose to kill themself.

I WISH game devs would push harder on the tech and requirements.  64bit processors have been around for ages now.  Dx10/11 have been around long enough.  Neither are used much.  Every time a new game comes out and there's no Dx 11...or even Dx10 support I'm like...you gotta be kidding.

Oh well, maybe in another 5-10 years people will catch up to 64 bit and Dx11 will be in widespread use.

Lastly, I really wish people wouldn't mention games on Linux.  Linux is < 1% marketshare for OSes, not all of which are gamers.  Developing for that is a complete waste of time.  If so many people are too pitiful to bother upgrading Windows, they surely couldn't handle Linux, an OS for IT geeks and enthusiasts.  Mac is nearly as bad, so give that a rest too.

 

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August 15, 2012 2:29:09 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Godplex, I find your comments on Windows 8 interesting since it seems to be a complete contradiction to everything I've read about it from users and developers.  I guess it depends what kind of developer you are.  And I guess it depends on what you read.

I develop with MS languages (pc dev, not app/app phone/tablet dev) and I'm fairly pro MS but there doesn't really seem to be a whole lot to Win 8 to make a person want to move from Win 7.  Bit late with the new and improved task manager that should've been updated 10 years ago.  $40 for an upgrade is low for MS but still seems like a lot for very little.  There's supposedly thousands of tweaks under the hood but I don't look under the hood - probably mostly to services and features I don't want or use.

We'll see.  It does seem like MS alternates from good to bad OSes with every release, or at least it's perceived that way.

I don't think Vista is bad, I have it on my work laptop, but I never saw a reason to shift to it from XP Pro for gaming.  Win7 is a definite keeper, it's like XP on roids.  Win8...we'll see.

 

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August 16, 2012 12:57:55 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

What about the /3GB switch?  It does contribute to system instability outside a game, but within it, people running WinXP can access 3GB RAM if they have it available.  I've done it myself with some of the heavy duty mods for Civ IV.  I'm not suggesting this is a substitute for 64-bit, but it might be at least a temporary solution for modmakers who want larger maps in FE.  I'd gladly play them using that switch.

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August 16, 2012 5:43:30 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

I use windows XP and other than my games running a little slow, I have no issues playing any game out.

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August 17, 2012 1:54:23 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Voqar,
Godplex, I find your comments on Windows 8 interesting since it seems to be a complete contradiction to everything I've read about it from users and developers.

One thing to keep in mind is that people's job security is threatened whenever they must learn something new, and this influences public opinion. Power users may hate a feature that makes a task ten times easier because they have become so good at doing it worse way. Eventually, however, the better way will improve the industry because more people will be enhanced by the new method than hindered.

Microsoft seems to be taking steps to force people to adapt to new systems, whether they want to or not, and it makes people uncomfortable.

For example, Windows 8 forces users to log in using their Windows Live ID. This is guaranteed to piss people off. On the other hand, it guarantees to the software developer that they will have Windows Live features like Skydrive available. In Windows 8, a programmer can backup a user's settings to Skydrive and automatically sync them with all the other computers a user has. Yes it's annoying, but it's small compared to the convenience of every program guaranteed this capability automatically. Developers can also use Live ID's authentication with their own services too. It's entirely possible to log into your PC and have Steam, Impulse, and whatever else be authenticated securely and automatically, without needing individual credential systems for each app to introduce new security issues. The technology is available today, but won't be used by developers until MS can force the 95% to get off their backsides and upgrade.

Software developers are also having better design crammed down their throats, whether they like it or not. For example, right now all monitors have pixels that are 1/72 of an inch squared. There is nothing preventing manufacturers from building super-high DPI monitors (think Apple's Retina display for your desktop and games) other than the fact that legacy programs were visually designed assuming 1/72" pixels. Anything else would make legacy programs render large and blocky, or small and unreadable.

Microsoft released an amazing framework called WPF (Windows Presentation Foundation) that fixes this problem. WPF forces vector graphics for all of its rendering. When you zoom in on a WPF application, the text and graphics look clearer, whereas with older technologies it just looks blocky and crap. WPF also uses "logical pixels" to lay out applications. When a developer creates a button 30px by 90px, it actually calculates how many "physical pixels" it should render based on the specs of your monitor. That button will be the same size on every screen. WPF applications will look beautiful on a super-high DPI monitors, whereas old applications will be distorted, blocky and look like crap.

All Metro-Style apps are forced to use WPF or HTML5. I bet that, eventually, desktop apps will be forced to use some new technology too. Metro-Style apps are also more secure because users have to grant explicit permission for apps to use certain features. The new app store also benefits users by enforcing compliance with Microsoft's security and quality standards, for all the apps distributed there.

In summary, the dilemma Stardock faces when contemplating 64bit-only applications is really part of a larger problem. As Voqar said, Win7 may be the new XP because it's so stable that people won't see a reason to upgrade. Developers will make applications for the widest compatibility, and everyone will miss out on new possibilities because their current OS is "good enough".

Short-term discomfort at a massive scale is the only way to force people to use better systems. If everyone started using Windows 8 as soon as it was released, then creative developers could take full advantage of all the cool stuff it offers under the hood.

(For fairness, I should add that I have an unrealistically positive opinion of Microsoft. Most people have unrealistically negative opinions of MS.)

 

Edit: final note on metro...

The start screen is cool for launching desktop applications, but it's hard to say whether the metro apps themselves will be great or terrible. The Windows beta doesn't have any big scale metro apps. They are all just Wikipedia readers and dumb little games like you would find on the iPhone store. Anyone who says "metro is lame" is being premature because no developers have sunk their teeth in yet, and anyone who says "metro is great" is also premature for the same reason. Only time will show it's merits.

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August 17, 2012 9:50:20 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Log on using a Windows Live ID?? LOL. Live is a joke. No wonder win8 is going to fail.

 

 

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August 17, 2012 1:50:01 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums


Thanks, Godplex, for the detailed and rational explanation regarding some of Win8's liabilities and assets.  Your calm, solid, and patient explanations add something valuable to the discussion (and particularly help those of us who are non-techies).  I personally expect to dislike Win8; and I will probably decide to "upgrade" soon to a 64-bit Win7 . 

But, again, I appreciate the thoughful explanation, that you took the time to offer, in your replies #76 and #82 above.  Thanks!       

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August 17, 2012 3:22:52 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Sorry but XP users are holding the market back. The fact that games need to be made to be compatible with 32 bit operating systems is limited what companies are capable of creating for new games. I know it is still a beta, but I can't even run a large map in FE without my game starting to run out of memory, forget about mods and such in the future. I really want to be able to run gigantic maps, even larger then the large maps now with 20 factions. Never gonna happen if things remain the same as they are now. 

 

I also think 32 bit users are trying to skew things towards their thinking. Every single person I know uses win 7 64. It is so cheap nowadays to build a system that is 64 bit with win 7. Those who still use a 32 bit system don't want to lose access to new games and such they are interested in so are just pushing their own agenda. In my opinion that is selfish. It is like any other situation where a small group drags down everyone else and we all end up behind because of it.

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August 17, 2012 4:07:47 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting BlackRainZ,
Sorry but XP users are holding the market back. The fact that games need to be made to be compatible with 32 bit operating systems is limited what companies are capable of creating for new games. I know it is still a beta, but I can't even run a large map in FE without my game starting to run out of memory, forget about mods and such in the future. I really want to be able to run gigantic maps, even larger then the large maps now with 20 factions. Never gonna happen if things remain the same as they are now. 

 

I also think 32 bit users are trying to skew things towards their thinking. Every single person I know uses win 7 64. It is so cheap nowadays to build a system that is 64 bit with win 7. Those who still use a 32 bit system don't want to lose access to new games and such they are interested in so are just pushing their own agenda. In my opinion that is selfish. It is like any other situation where a small group drags down everyone else and we all end up behind because of it.

Sorry, but that's not fair to XP users. 32-bit users are what is holding the market back, to which XP users are a part of. In addition, 32-bit users still make up the wide majority of the market (all my friends stil use 32 bit with the excpetion of 1), so it's in the interests of software developers to make their product compatable with 32-bit. Naturally, this in turn reinforces 32-bit users from upgrading as the new software being released still only requires 32-bit, adding to why they do not need to upgrade.

Two solutions:

1) Force 64-bit. Developers may try this at their own peril. It's a gamble because if not enough of the market can run their program, then they'll take a loss on their product...or even go bankrupt.

2) Acknowledge that 32-bit is still main stream. Developers will have to think smarter...as efficiencies in code will be needed to have their software do more with the 32-bit platform. The last time this phenomina occured was in the days of DOS. Ah DOS, how I miss you. The platform required developers to be extremely efficient at code in order to sell a good product. Most of the best games still come from that age too.

Personally, I'm for the second option. Why should users have to pay (upgrading their computers and OS) for developers to put out sloppy coded products?

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August 17, 2012 4:40:43 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting GFireflyE,
Developers will have to think smarter...as efficiencies in code will be needed to have their software do more with the 32-bit platform.

There's a point where you can make do and a point where you're just plain crippling yourself. When the current-gen midrange video card has as much memory as the entire application can address, we're past that point.

64-bit desktop CPUs have been mainstream for the better part of the last decade. It's time to move up.

 

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August 17, 2012 5:21:19 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting kryo,

64-bit desktop CPUs have been mainstream for the better part of the last decade. It's time to move up.

 

The problem lies in the distance between your command above, and the desires of those who are happy with 32-bit.  I suspect that's the stretch of road paved with the money the latter won't spend on 64-bit games.  It's entirely up to each company how far they want to push the envelope in exchange for whatever loss of revenue they incur.

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August 17, 2012 5:56:03 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting GFireflyE,

2) Acknowledge that 32-bit is still main stream. Developers will have to think smarter...as efficiencies in code will be needed to have their software do more with the 32-bit platform. The last time this phenomina occured was in the days of DOS. Ah DOS, how I miss you. The platform required developers to be extremely efficient at code in order to sell a good product. Most of the best games still come from that age too.

That's a valid point. But remember that there are trade-offs between a program's efficiency and the work+cost required by the developers. Would you be willing to pay $500 for a game that had every processor-instruction hand-optimized? Would you wait twenty years for it to be released? Even if performance was vastly improved on old 32bit systems?

Every software company has to perform an n-dimensional juggling act with a myriad of factors that can only be optimized at the expense of others (high performance, fast development speed, low development cost, ironclad security, bug-free, easy to maintain, easy to extend/mod). Stardock is being amazingly generous with the development time+cost part of the equation. In all our Elemental matches combined, however, we couldn't cast "Enchanted Keyboards" on them enough times to make a product that's 100% perfect to everyone.

Buyers of software that control space shuttles, nuclear launches, or the Curiosity on Mars can afford to put up the crazy amount of money and wait as long as it takes for their (nearly) perfect system. Everyone else has to compromise with business (not billionaire) limits, and build the best damn systems they can in the ways that matter to their clients (and themselves). "Rapid Development" by Steve McConnell greatly influenced my views on this topic (so much that I feel I owe him credit). I would recommend it for people who want to learn more.

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August 17, 2012 5:58:43 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Fallen Enchantress is the end of the line for supporting 32-bit OSes.  I'm not willing to keep the # of monsters or map sizes gimped to support those who can't be bothered to get a decent machine.

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August 17, 2012 6:13:10 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I gladly skipped Vista. I was a hardcore XP fanboy. But Win 7 64 is so much better I can't believe that I waited for as long as I did to upgrade. Windows Live ID to log in to Win 8? So much for Win 8.

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August 17, 2012 6:17:50 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Frogboy,
Fallen Enchantress is the end of the line for supporting 32-bit OSes.  I'm not willing to keep the # of monsters or map sizes gimped to support those who can't be bothered to get a decent machine.

 

Are you planning to continue support for 64-bit WinXP, Brad? 

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August 17, 2012 11:10:19 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I am.

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August 17, 2012 11:59:02 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums


Well it seems the major factor here is the economy, so perhaps Bill and President Obama should be the ones to adress this 32 64 bit address problem?

I'm just saying. I run win7 64.

Also ex milatary Love the USA so please no attacks

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August 18, 2012 7:00:42 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting John Ramsey,

Well it seems the major factor here is the economy, so perhaps Bill and President Obama should be the ones to adress this 32 64 bit address problem?

I'm just saying. I run win7 64.

Also ex milatary Love the USA so please no attacks
  LOL awesome.

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August 22, 2012 5:12:14 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting RichVR,
Windows Live ID to log in to Win 8? So much for Win 8.

Win8 also has a local account option, so this is incorrect.

You CAN log in with a Microsoft account and it's recommended, you aren't forced to.

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August 23, 2012 4:35:24 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Thanks. I was the one who got it wrong.

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