DarkGaldred

Join Date 02/2008

[.86][Feedback]Reworking Phase 1 technologies

I know the game is about rediscovering technology and reclaiming the world, but for me, having to research spears, and agriculture every game just kills immersion, as it just really does not add up (as I 've said in this technology thread, there already was a decline of civilization when the Roman Empire collapsed, and although many technologies were lost, trivial things like planting seeds, horse riding, and metal smithing were not.

It just makes the game boring as most games are decided pretty early.

This is the main thing that kills replayability for me, as I really dislike this part of the game when you have zero choice of weapon and armor (especially since the stone age wars decide a good part of the game outcome), and zero choice of things to build in your cities.

I don't think the game should try to mimic civilization in the stoneage->medieval progression, it just does not work at all for me.

There would be several ways to make early game much more varied and interesting (decision wise) :

1/ Have each faction start with a dozen specific techs (with some overlap between factions) instead of a single 4 turns tech. That would help having faction differenciation from the beginning without needing to add too much faction specific assets.

2/ Add cruder version of each weapon and armor (cloth, leather, metal) type in the beginning, like short spear, broadsword (or bronze weapons), ringmail, crude leather armor, and make the early civic techs available from day 1.

3/ Add an option to start with the first two columns of every tree researched (except for the magic tree, where players would only start with shard and crystal harvesting), and give 1 other specific tech per faction

I don't like option 3 much, but if 1 and 2 are not to make it, I'd rather have an option that could make me skip the part I find boring.

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I don't have a problem with having to rediscover technology... it is really a terminology thing more than anything. And I think the breakdown of civilization in FE is meant to be rather more catastrophic than the fall of the Roman Empire so thematically it is fine with me too.

However I do have a problem with the resulting gameplay problem of lack of construction options early game. This can be broken into two parts:

1. The lack of options for designing troops. This is pretty much what you are saying and you are right that it makes the unit designer pointless for the first few turns. Having a few stone or bronze weapons and a +1 defence 'fur coat' armour piece is worth Stardock considering, or alternatively making leatherworking available as a first tier Military tech.

2. The lack of options for early game buildings is a bigger problem to me. Even after learning the first two tiers of Civics techs there are very few worthwhile buildings to keep my cities busy. This makes me very sad because I like to feel I am making valuable choices about building my empire, rather than watching my cities do nothing turn after turn...

Fortunately I'm pretty sure the next Beta will improve #2 significantly and it might also make a few improvements with #1.

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It's not really a terminology thing :

For me researching trivial things (like agriculture, mining, spear making) gets in the way of doing cool stuff, like developing magic weapons and armors, researching spells to destroy cities, raising dragons.

My point was that we could still keep a cataclysmic background without having to go back to stone age.

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joasoze

Join Date 02/2006

+39

Its a very tough decision in early game, and I like it. Go for mining to get the iron going, or go for weapons to kill more monsters early. Me likes

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Option 1, I think, would be quite easy to mod into the game – just unlock the appropriate technologies for each faction in the XML. So that’s something the modders can do, rather than having Stardock do it.

Now, I do agree with Mistwraithe that the options on what to build can look rather lacking at the beginning of the game. Still, consider – tower of dominion for the city growth, barracks for the army training, workshop for more production, militia for defense, or a pioneer for outpost building (admittedly, the latter is only useful if the faction starts with shard harvesting).

Once the lethality of the world around is increased, so that the player has to build more defense, I think the choice will be more meaningful – can I really spend 18 turns on Tower of Dominion, or do I need another two-three units to defend my land in the meantime.

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The problem is not that building options are lacking at the beginning of the game, but that they remain so most of the game :

95% of my cities build nothing 95% of the time. I usually raze my first opoonent with spears, and my second one with shortbows. I only see the later techs for the mopping up phase, so the small number of building decisions, and army composition remains so during the whole game for me.

I could stall to unlock techs, but what fun would that be?

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Agree with both points of OP

Having to grab the same basic weapon and resource techs everry game is very annoying.

It wouldn't be so bad if there was any variety but there isn't, every game start is exactly the same, metal/crystal are luxuries more than resources.

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Quoting joasoze,

reply 3

Its a very tough decision in early game, and I like it. Go for mining to get the iron going, or go for weapons to kill more monsters early. Me likes

It doesn't really add to decision making : if you had more buildings and more options to outfit troops, we would still have the same technology choices (what to research next, things to make my cities grow faster, or big improvements to my pointy spears?), but we would have other decisions to take, like what to build in my cities that are not specialized in troop production?

And how do I want to compose my army?

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Good points.

Keep in mind though that we can't just add more stuff. There need to be trade offs, such as maintenance costs. Otherwise you still just build everything. It should be a choice, not just a matter of what order to build everything.

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I really like option 2. (perhaps due to suggesting some of it myself ... )

We should all (imho) start with a basic weapon selection (of albeit inefficient weapons), and a basic economy.

-> Personally I'm not sure if (early-armor) is needed, but for us to consider it we should formulate some type of justification.

What comes to mind is Apprentice Chain and Apprentice Plate.

Before any tech is reasearched ... this is what is available

Farming, Mining, Crystal Harvesting, Shard Harvesting, "Early Roads" ie slow-as-hell paths

The basic/defacto spells of the spell schools that we have now Element(s) I-V

Spear, Wooden Shield, early leather

-> Maybe a Slingshot or Crude hunting bow as well? (if a regular hunting bow was weaker than a shortbow, yet bonus vs beasts)

Warfare Tier 1 Techs

Standing Army -> 'Conscript' trait, +1 army size

Training -> good traits, Barracks, early national wonder?

Apprentice Smithing -> Apprentice Chain, Apprentice Plate, early (forge) national wonder?, and Crude/Dull metal weapons

Civilization Tier 1 Techs

Mounted Warfare (Wargs and Horses available)

Currency (early gold boosts, maybe a National Wonder of Gildar production)

Early Treaties/Trade (early diplomacy, leads to proper roads)

Apprenticeship Education (early form of education, leads to both Spiritual and Public Education (monasteries vs libraries))

Quarries (+1 resource/gildar from mines) -> leads to Construction, Advanced Mining, etc

Magical Tier 1 techs

Exploration (unaffected)

Arcane Circles (early spell additions, leads down the branch of Spell research, eventually to Spell of Making)

Enchantment (unlocks early magical staffs/staves ... later techs require an early weapons tech (like the weapons tech just beyond apprentice smithing))

Enchantment will go down the paths of better Staffs (no cross-teching needed, perhaps some reqs from the Spell branch) and Enchanted mundane Weaponry (will start to require warfare techs, but early warfare, not late warfare)

Enchanted Weaponry will give anything from the early Mana Knife to the midling Fire Axe

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A part of the problem I think is how few technologies we have and how they and the game are paced. It seems too easy to just grab earlier techs when they only take 2-5 seasons. I don't work my way down paths on the tech trees so much as the entire trees themselves. Il grab the more useful lv3 techs then just all the lv2's. Then the more useful 4's. Then all lv3's ect ect ect. It should take longer too research earlier technology and there should be more branches instead of just one interwoven one with a few offshoots.

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I am sure they will add a quick start scenario option for all those people that do not like the early research. They had it in Galciv.

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Edited "starting techs" to Tier 1 techs.

I basically meant that the first tier of techs you have to choose between should be those I have listed.

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