[Suggestions .86] Rebalance weapons, change how world improvements are built, tone down experience split

By on February 28, 2012 6:26:50 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Sarudak

Join Date 12/2006
+23

First off I think the game is definitely getting very good. Other than the obvious balancing things and extra content for more interesting options I had a couple suggestions.

1. Make all world level improvements require production from the closest city. This makes protecting/razing them more of a big deal and means harder choices for your city build queues. (If you don't do this then at least make it so that they never take up the city build queue even if they are adjacent to the city as the inconsistency/metagameyness of it is driving me nuts)

 

2. Rebalance weapons (and armor) to give them meaningful differentiation and reflect real world weaponry. I absolutely hate the fact that you guys gave piercing weapons armor penetration. It makes no sense to me at all. And it's maddening that the first decent weapon you get is also your armor pen weapon meaning that you can easily use spears on all your units for the whole game (it's what I typically do). In the real world the weapons people used to counter heavy armor were typically heavy swinging weapons with points ie warhammers. I think a few simple principles would be good to follow. 

Early Blunt (clubs, maces) - Very cheap, very poor attack power, relatively effective against all but plate armor, ineffective against most creatures

Pierce (spears, bow) - Slightly more expensive, poor attack power, average effectiveness against armor, barely scratches plate, effective against high defense creatures

Sword Type Cutting - Relatively expensive, excellent attack power, poor effectiveness against armor, barely scratches plate, effective against most creatures, give dodge bonus based on level to reflect parrying

Axe Type Cutting (Two handed swords here too) - Slightly less expensive than sword type, better against armor, dodge penalty, accuracy penalty

Late 'Blunt' (warhammer, maul) - Slightly less expensive than sword, armor piercing, dodge penalty, accuracy penalty, largely ineffective against creatures

Now I haven't thought out the exact mechanics that would accomplish this ideal but I think most of them could be fairly obvious. This would give us real incentive to have different kinds of troops. For example swords would be good to give to defensive units as swords are a good defensive weapon and do decent all around damage. Plate armor should be crazy strong and terrifying if you don't have late game blunt weapons to counter (also it should be possible to reduce damage to 0 esp with plate). Spears need some kind of special ability to distinguish them I think (besides armor piercing) something to reflect their ability as a standoff weapon (I want to be motivated to make phalanx units).

 

3. Tone down the experience reduction for heroes/army. It is too harsh and basically means that I never am willing to put more than one hero in an army. Perhaps a gradual reduction where 2 heroes get 75% xp each, 3 heroes get 66%, 4 heroes get 50%? It really kills the adventurer strategy. I just feel like you guys went to far in nerfing heroes. I've yet to get a my channeler to level 10 even though I fought most battle with just her and I've fought 3 major wars and done a lot of adventuring.

 

Locked Post 12 Replies
Search this post
Subscription Options


Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
February 28, 2012 6:42:28 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I especially agree with #3!!  In fact, it's totally ruining my enjoyment of the game.  Or if XP gain is going to be so slow, then champions need to get two picks on level up instead of one and more than 5 options to choose from.  Perhaps the first of the two picks is stat change and the second of the two picks some skill, ability or magic upgrade.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
February 28, 2012 6:48:24 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Aerion Istari,
I especially agree with #3!!  In fact, it's totally ruining my enjoyment of the game.  Or if XP gain is going to be so slow, then champions need to get two picks on level up instead of one and more than 5 options to choose from.  Perhaps the first of the two picks is stat change and the second of the two picks some skill, ability or magic upgrade.

Yeah I feel totally bummed when I FINALLY level up and I get all common traits and have to settle on +2 constitution. What a letdown.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
February 28, 2012 7:25:10 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Re:2

You are absolutely right. Spears are poorly implemented. They should be doing double damage against mounted units, which we already have code for in the game to implement. Not sure why this is not already the case. Armor penetration is fine on hero weapons or maybe on a dagger at the endgame tech tiers. Not in the beginning and not on spears. 

One issue is that every faction is using the exact same weapons. Each faction should get a few weapons that offer unique strategies and attributes in line with the lore for that faction. 

Another problem, as you mentioned is that axes and swords are not that different. Axes should be better against armor, while swords get more attacks. A sword and shield should play differently than an ax and shield. In fact I would like axes have better attack to balance them being slower. 

The late game techs should be offering some real good counters to certain strategies. Plate should probably be more resistance to piercing and cutting. That way Warhammers have the logical role they were built for. Perhaps Chainmail should defend against pierce and cutting better. It would be nice to have only one weapon type to stop these units, given how expensive the armor is.

 

 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
February 28, 2012 8:57:29 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I'm seriously thinking of trying to roll back to .77.  I liked this game a lot better when I could actually level up my champions and they didn't run around with an endless  supply of mana.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
February 28, 2012 9:02:34 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I agree with all 3 points. They would make the game a lot more strategic and enjoyable.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
February 28, 2012 9:12:55 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Agree with this post with an additional caveat:

 

Alot of players are noting the lack of distinction among the two realms and numerous factions. My suggestion would built upon your second point: have a set of basic weapons that are universal to all factions and have unique properties specific to certain needs. For example, everyone gets:

clubs (basic weapon, no bonuses, no detriments)

spears (bonus to mounted units, less damage to armor)

longswords (bonus to non-armor, less damage to mounted)

daggers (bonus to armor, less damage overall, increased critical hits, increased initiative)

Research in Warfare tech increases the quality and materials used to construct the weapons, whereas research in Magic allows for enchantments to weapons.

 

Now, create several sets of faction exclusive weapons with the same tiers of materials/enchantments as the basic weapons. For example:

Falchion (bonus to armor, increased initiative, special skill: chop (deals 50% more damage but -5 initiative for one turn))

Halberd (bonus to mounts, bonus to armor, only moderate damage, special skill: disarm (opponent's damage is reduced by 50% next turn; cooldown (2 turns))

Pike (bonus to mounts, special trait: long reach (melee unit can attack two horizontal squares away but at 50% less damage))

Wakisashi (bonus to non-armor, special skill: concealment (ends the units turn, but increases damage threefold the next turn; once per battle))

 

And many more. These are just some quick ways to increase the diversity of the factions and the diversity of the weapons without betraying the underlying philosophy of FE.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
February 28, 2012 9:50:06 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

RE: 3

You hit the nail on the balanced head here. A straight division sucks the life from my veins. It makes sense to have a penalty, but hero grouping shouldn't mean no mana. Nor should only two heroes mean 50%. 

I would even say the 85, 75, 66, 50, 45 33, 20, 15, 10 is a perfect percentage scale given nine as the maximum number of heroes. 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
February 28, 2012 9:55:08 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

The third point, I've been suggesting that in some form all along, though my idea was to scale the penalty by level. 

 

Straight division means that 2 heroes is punished more then 6.

 

Maybe researching up the quests tree would reduce the penalties - that's also a solution.

 

 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
February 29, 2012 3:57:43 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums


1)  Can't agree.  There is currently far too little strategy in city building.

 

2)  I hope the dev's are listening.

 

3)  Remember this is a beta.  I would not be surprised if it is deliberate at this stage that we are being encouraged away from champions.  1st beta champions/questing, 2nd beta units/war (including bumped mana to go with).  3rd beta ? 

Beta's are often used to test certain features/subsystems.  By all means make suggestions but remember this is a beta and likely somewhat different from the form the finished game will take.  (If I am right look for unit production costs to units to rise in next beta...)

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
February 29, 2012 5:24:21 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums


1) This took me a few reads before I understood what you meant. I thought you meant wonders when you said world level structures.. but in fact you mean -map resources- Ahem anyway, I have no opinion on this matter. I'm not really a fan of snaking cities though.

2) This makes sense. The initiative penalties/bonuses associated with weapons should probably go. I would also like to see some differentiation in damage ranges and number of attacks, but that is probably too big a programming change.

3) I have to disagree with this. Any ammount of experience split that is not 50/50 encourages stacking all your champions together. The reason for this is that killing 2 ogres with both champions will provide more experience than splitting up that group and killing 1 ogre with 1 champion each. I like that champions are encouraged to go off in seperate directions. The only qualm I have is that regular units for some reason participate in this experience splitting mechanic.

On top of this, keep in mind that experience requirements for each level are not linear. You can much more easily level 2 champions to 8th level than 1 champion to 12th. This alone makes it worthwhile to level more than one simultaneously.

There is a third and perhaps overlooked reason for making the split harsh enough to discourage having big groups of champions: They are in limited supply. In the event that experience was not evenly split and your units continued to gain more experience overall as you grouped them together, the game would highly favor those that were lucky enough to start next to a small army of champions, and would further emphasize researching recruiting techs over other combat related options.

This was a well-thought out post, but there was a reason a large portion of the community asked for split experience. Currently I think the biggest issue is that there isn't enough experience to go around. There is only one (very sad) way to gain passive xp, and monsters that are killed do not respawn, nor do quests continue to appear, and currently the AI is incapable of throwing anything challenging enough at us to grant reasonable opportunities to level through war.

Please do not confuse the slow leveling with the split experience mechanic.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
February 29, 2012 7:11:07 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Your champions would gain slightly more experience total by being grouped together but you would still have the penalties to the trained units which means that you would probably still get less total experience from each unit. I agree that part of the problem is the lack of options to gain experience. We really went from feast to famine and while both are detrimental famine is considerably less pleasant.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
February 29, 2012 9:27:08 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting CdrRogdan,

Currently I think the biggest issue is that there isn't enough experience to go around. There is only one (very sad) way to gain passive xp, and monsters that are killed do not respawn, nor do quests continue to appear, and currently the AI is incapable of throwing anything challenging enough at us to grant reasonable opportunities to level through war.

Please do not confuse the slow leveling with the split experience mechanic.

I agree with this. While perhaps the Altar should have less of a Champ experience penalty, for most of us the penalty should exist.

The main problem, as CdrRogan said, is that experience simply doesn't flow anywhere near as freely as it used to.

Honestly, even in 0.77 I never had more than 2 or 3 champions until the "late game" ... meaning when my heroes were level 20+.

If experience flowed even half as freely as it did back then, my single Champion army would be getting my sovereign more than 12 levels (0.85) by the late game.

-> I admit I need to be testing 0.86 more, so I'm not sure how accurate this is for 0.86, but from what I've experienced the weak dudes just don't give enough experience for it to be worth it to fight weak dudes. Weak dudes should actually matter somewhat in exp ... not just giving 3 exp for killing three of them. (1 exp each just seems wrong, unless they were even weaker and came in groups of 9 )

Imho, for a battle that's even half-way difficult, 5 exp should be the minimum. Now if your just fighting one lone mite, maybe 1 exp ... but honestly I don't like battles that don't have an effect on exp. Maybe have the exp increase at a higher than 1:1 ratio with groups?

Like say 1 mite is 1 exp ... 2 mites is 3 exp ... 3 mites is 6 exp, 4 mites is 12 exp ... etc

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
Stardock Forums v1.0.0.0    #108433  walnut3   Server Load Time: 00:00:00.0000125   Page Render Time: