CdrRogdan

Join Date 04/2009

+23

[.77][Balance] Dodge, Accuracy, and Encumbrance

Imagine the scenario where you have a high level champion focusing on strength, and another high level champion focusing on dexterity (for dodge). Even if the chance to dodge increased by 2 per level, the champion focusing on strength would have zero problems hitting the swift champion because accuracy is purely a determinant of level.

This creates the odd scenario where a high dexterity champion is capable of dodging low level enemies -very well- but nothing else. This can effectly make fielding armies pointless (for addtional reasons).

Accuracy and Dodge should both be based on encumbrance adjustable by traits.

Encumbrance should not be a mutable stat. Heavy armored units are -supposed- to be encumbered. They hit less often and dodge less often, but take less damage. Encumbrance should have multiple levels to it - 4 would make sense. <25% (none) grants bonuses to dodge and accuracy, <50% (light) imposes penalties to spell mastery/damage, <75% (medium) imposes penalties to accuracy, dodge and spell mastery/damage <100% (heavy) imposes penalties to accuracy, dodge, spellmastery/damage and move.

Traits could be greyed out based on encumbrance level. That is to say a medium and higher encumbered character would not have access to fast, and only an unencumbered character would have access to charge. Traits could be used to adjust encumbrance as long as there is an appropriate trade-off. Let's say for example going from medium to light removes a penalty of 2 accuracy and 1 to dodge. The 'accuracy' trait of 3 makes removing a level of encumbrance not necessarily the most appropriate option.

If accuracy is adjustable by level it should be by a -very small- ammount, so that relatively equal level units will have a relatively equal chance to hit each other.

The functions of strength, dexterity and constition may need adjusting, as well as some items, and to prevent gamble mechanics, champions may need to start using multiple attacks, but that isn't the scope of this discussion. Basically I'm looking for ways to make the level disparity less harsh and encumbrance a larger factor in design.

Just to throw some numbers out there, assuming a forumula of (Acc/(Acc+Dodge)) to hit:

Base Dodge is 5

Base Accuracy is 10

(Base to-hit is 66%)

No encumbrance Provides +2 Accuracy, +1 Dodge

Medium Encumbrance Provies -2 Accuracy, -1 Dodge, (and -30% Spellmastery/damage)

The unencumbered unit would have a 75% chance to hit the encumbered unit

The encumbered unit would have a 57% chance to hit the unencumbered unit

In this way it would still be more useful to wear armor to defend against physical attacks, but in those situations where unit defense was unimportant, such as with first strike, charge barbarians, or archers in the back row, you would want to maximize your hit rating and wear less armor to do so.

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Having worn body armor before, I can safely say that it really doesn't impede movement all that much. I'm sure old fashioned stuff would likely be a little worse, but seeing as encumbrance (in this game) come almost exclusively from armor, it really shouldn't impede accuracy all that much. I do like the idea of balancing dodge a little better though, that could be a good way to do it.

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The problem that only some stats scale with the level was already in WOM, but either all stats should scale with the level or none to avoid the problem you described.

I think your encumbrance idea is great, but i would change the encumbrance levels:

- None (1 - 25 %): no modifications

- Light (26 - 50 %): accuracy - 1, dodge - 1, spell mastery - 1

- Medium (51 - 75 %): accuracy - 2, dodge - 2, spell mastery - 2

- Heavy (76 - 100 %): accuracy - 3, dodge - 3, spell mastery - 3

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@ Markon It doesn't have to be realistic. It's possible to have armor just affect dodge, but as dodge is a defense mechanic, you are basically trading defense for more defense, which isn't a fair trade off. Mind you, that construction time is also being traded, but it still works out better to have more armor. It could affect initiative instead, and I would be okay with that. I just wanted to stay away from initiative discussions right now, since the mechanic seems pretty broken.

@ Wizard1200 I completely forgot about spell mastery! Of course if damage spells cannot be resisted it won't make a difference, so let's hope that gets added in. I'll update the post. Good catch!

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Lord Reliant

Join Date 03/2006

+39

This is a great game mechanic adjustment. I find it frustrating now that the Dodge attribute isn't particularly powerful in comparison to the Strength, since dodging just doesn't happen often. Someone should be able to gain a significant advantage to high Dexterity, and dodging should be one of those things. I also like how there are suggestions on increasing the penalties for higher encumbrance, including spell casting. Very good balancing.

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StevenAus22

Join Date 06/2010

+110

I like these ideas too, and even if there's only a small window for changing, I would encourage the devs to do so.

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Lord Reliant

Join Date 03/2006

+39

Nice thing with these ideas is that it shouldn't require a drastic overhaul, but just changes some of the balancing, which is a primary goal of the beta.

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Quoting Markon,

reply 1

Encumbrance should not be a mutable stat. Heavy armored units are -supposed- to be encumbered. They hit less often and dodge less often, but take less damage.

I disagree. While I think you are moving in the right direction you are going too far. Having encumberance effect accuracy is a terrible idea, especialy when it also effects dodge (which it should).You end up with a scenario where units in the heaviest armor cannot hit units without armor or at least are weak against it. A better idea would be to just make encumberance really effect dodge, with lesser effects on movement and initiative so that even leather armor on an everyday average normal guy will lower dodge and plate pretty much flat out stops it and slows you down unless your a lv 15 defender or wearing full spectral.

Also I agree that Str and encumberance are an overpowerd combo but it could possibly work with constitution instead.

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Kamamura_CZ

Join Date 03/2006

+34

Not wanting to spoil the fun, but the idea that a plate-armored combatant is a lumbering behemoth that is unable to move with speed, but can take direct hits with little effect is not quite correct (along with huge axes and swords weighing more than 5kg).

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@Kamamura as I said I wasn't really going for realism, but rather game balance. 'Realistically' daggers don't make your character move any quicker, but that's what they do >.> In any case, take the suggestions with grain of salt ^^

@Stupidity10 Perhaps you should look at the numbers again. The odds of hitting/missing aren't terribly high in favor of the unencumbered characters, not to mention I didn't include the likelyhood those armored characters were using sheilds (which can and still should provide dodge). Accuracy.. meh. It's a stat that should perhaps be removed, as well as dodge. Neither of them lend much to combat. But in the interests of keeping things the way they work now, I wanted to address that accuracy accumulates very quickly with level and eventually makes dodge pointless. By having accuracy based on encumbrance there is a way to control it, while still having it serve a purpose.

Also if traits were used to reduce encumbrance you could still have heavily armored units without the penalties associated with being weighted down, you would simply have to give up strength or constituion or whatever else you can think of to do so. Initiative could work too, but then accuracy still needs addressing in a way that makes it functional but not make dodge moot. 'Small' increase are okay though. Like +1 accuracy per 2 or 3 levels.

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Accuracy is the problem. For balance and fun nothing should effect accuracy but like a +1-2 weapon bonus on magic weapons and the odd rare trait. Most units should go through the game without going above or below base accuracy.

Example Swordsmaster: +2 Attack/ +1 accuracy with swords.

I would recomend accuracy and dodge be scrapped but without them assasins seem kinda pointless. You just have to balance dodge against armor so that they are roughly equal and that assasins/light armor defenders can use it while heavy armor warriors/mage cannot. Though to balance dodge perfectly better base hp would have to go up to make missing or hitting an attack less vital to combat. Oh, and maybe you could make dodge reduce chance of critical as well.

And while shields increasing dodge makes sense from a realistic view, I don't think it could be balanced easily. Only way would be to make it a seperate dodge from normal a "block" instead of a dodge that cannot be lowered by encumberance.

Heavy armor doesnt need to come with a downside beyond higher cost and lower dodge/initiative/movement. Reducing accuracy and spellpower is just too much. For Mage there just needs to be more robes, some with defense built in to compete against armor. Throw in some penetrating and accurate special attacks and I think it could balance.

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