[suggestion] Injuries are pitifully weak

By on January 26, 2012 6:14:29 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Heavenfall

Join Date 07/2008
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The injuries we can get when a champion dies in 0.75 are pitifully weak. They have practically no impact on the game. I would suggest you increase their strength by a lot. I've made a "before and after" list below with my suggestions. The important thing here is to make injuries 1) more significant as to be actually debilitating and 2) to make injuries scale with the power of the character.

 

 

Amnesia
Before: -10 xp
Suggestion: Champion loses every XP gained in this level. Also, future XP gained is reduced by 33%

Blind in one eye
Before:-2 accuracy
Suggestion:-25% Accuracy, -10% dodge

Broken Nose
Before: -1 Hitpoint
Suggestion: -0.5 faction growth. -3 hitpoints.

Chipped Tooth
Before: Nothing
Suggestion: +20% vulnerability to poison

Flesh Wound
Before: -1 constitution
Suggestion: -15% hitpoints

Gangrene Hand
Before: -1 str
Suggestion: -15% str

Missing Ear
Before: nothing
Suggestion: -15% dodge

 


I haven't changed these

Pneumonia
Before: Double Damage from cold attacks (by the way this tooltip is wrong, the XML says its +50% damage not +100%)
Suggestion: same

'Tis but a scratch
Before: nothing
Suggestion: nothing

Typhoid Fever
Before: -1 to army constitution
Suggestion: same

 

 

 


 

Further suggestions for new ones

Cracked Mind - -20% spell mastery

Disturbed Aura - -20% spell resistance

Nerve Damage - Double damage from lightning attacks



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January 26, 2012 6:23:44 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

One thing that is important here which you'll note is that these injuries scale both with the current, and the future power of the champion. If you have a gangrene hand, or if you have amnesia, it is not something that can be overcome by finding a pair of bracers with +1str or witnessing a fight. It's going to be with you for a very long time.

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January 26, 2012 6:41:04 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Unless you drink a potion of restoration.   Although these should be *very* rare.

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January 26, 2012 6:55:44 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I don't want to see buffed injuries before we see nerfed champions, particularly since the AI is currently quite bad about hero management and often ends up with a debilitating list of injuries already

Also, the incapacitation time becomes very significant as your heroes rise in level, long enough to knock them out of contention while an AI can (potentially) take down your cities.

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January 26, 2012 6:58:17 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Injuries should be a table, with modifiers based on two factors

 

a) Number of deaths

How negative you got.  If you go to -1HP, it should be something minor.  -60HP should have a good chance to cripple or kill you.  (Maybe it could be cumulative HP you went negative by)

 

 

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January 26, 2012 6:58:18 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Something to keep in mind is that if injuries are too crippeling, they simply create the "reload save before battle" impulse that a dead champion has. A champion that becomes effectively useless after one or two lost fights might as well be dead. 

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January 26, 2012 7:05:42 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Zaisha,
Something to keep in mind is that if injuries are too crippeling, they simply create the "reload save before battle" impulse that a dead champion has. A champion that becomes effectively useless after one or two lost fights might as well be dead. 

Or alternatively a crippled champion should be retired to look after a city, which makes sense if you ask me.

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January 26, 2012 7:09:41 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Until the AI managed his Champions well (enough), having penalties that are not severe doesn't seem so bad. Right now it's more than common that all the Champions used by the AI have always at least one... and I have seen more than one with more than a row of them.

That solved, I would like a variety of injuries that range from cosmetic ("Oh, I got lucky that only got a scar") to something really crippling. But most of them being something in the middle.

Quoting ,
Amnesia
Before: -10 xp
Suggestion: Champion loses every XP gained in this level. Also, future XP gained is reduced by 33%

Amnesia affects the past not the future so I cannot agree with reducing the experience gained after getting this trait. Unless we are talking "Memento" here, in which case I would deny most of the experience (if not all). And I'm not sure Stardock was thinking of "Memento" when adding this one. (but they could add one like that...)

Blind in one eye
Before:-2 accuracy
Suggestion:-25% Accuracy, -10% dodge

Ok with this one.


Broken Nose
Before: -1 Hitpoint
Suggestion: -0.5 faction growth. -3 hitpoints.

I don't see why the faction growth should be affected by this. May be a bit more grotesque than, lets say, losing an eye but still cannot agree with that part. Unless we are talking of some kind of "charisma penalty" that only applies to the city where he is stationed.

Chipped Tooth
Before: Nothing
Suggestion: +20% vulnerability to poison

I think of this as cosmetic one and see not direct relation to being posioned.

Flesh Wound
Before: -1 constitution
Suggestion: -15% hitpoints

Ok with this one.


Gangrene Hand
Before: -1 str
Suggestion: -15% str

Ok with this one but I wish that they would change the name. Wouldn't gangrene imply to lose the hand or lose the life? Which would end in "Cannot use two handed weapons" or something like that?

Missing Ear
Before: nothing
Suggestion: -15% dodge

I think of this one as cosmetic (lose the flesh but not the capicity to hear) but could be ok with it. That said, helmets should apply a penalty to dodge too on that basis. (imho)
 

I would like some possibility for casters to lose a level of magic in some element (Elemental Imbalance or something) or some kind of penalties related to the magic that he can use. More mental stuff too (a paranoid governor or a paranoid general).

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January 26, 2012 7:11:47 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Zaisha,
Something to keep in mind is that if injuries are too crippeling, they simply create the "reload save before battle" impulse that a dead champion has. A champion that becomes effectively useless after one or two lost fights might as well be dead. 

 

True, but it's swung in the other direction, where I use my champions to be cannon fodder for my normal troops.

 

One thing that I think has to be implemented is a champion who falls in battle retreats to the nearest city and is immobilized for a few turns, victory or defeat.  I think the number of turns right now is fine, and should be based on proximity like it is now.

 

 

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January 26, 2012 7:13:32 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums


The reload/save issue is completely up to the player. We shouldn't make the game unbalanced or non-challenging because some people cheat. But of course; The AI has to be able to deal with it too (or cheat for less impact of the maluses).

As the poster above me mentioned, the way it works now is too exploitable.

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January 26, 2012 7:19:52 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I agree basically to what was said, if the AI stops getting a lot of those they should definitely have a bigger impact on the game.

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January 26, 2012 7:20:03 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting NorsemanViking,

The reload/save issue is completely up to the player. We shouldn't make the game unbalanced or non-challenging because some people cheat. But of course; The AI has to be able to deal with it too (or cheat for less impact of the maluses)

Agree. Save-scum is just cheating in my book. If you want to reload every time 10% of your faction is set back 20% in 10% of its utility, be my guest. Maybe you can give your champions some free levels as well, yeah?

 

Seriously, you cannot balance a game around save-scumming. There are 1000 other scenarios where save-scumming can save you in this game. Why should THIS particular feature be limited by it? No.

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January 26, 2012 8:06:59 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums


I am against the above listed changes, as they are far too debilitating and the AI will be an even worse opponent than it is currently. With proper tactical management it is difficult to lose a hero during combat but that doesn't mean you should cripple players (or the AI) for making mistakes.

Personally I agree that they are far too minimal in their effect, but many of the injuries could be better balanced by simply doubling their effect. While some of them need reworking (even 20 xp is laughable) your suggestions go too far the other way. If I mess up, or some monster gets a lucky crit I don't want that hero to lose 25% or more of his/her effectiveness.

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January 26, 2012 8:07:16 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

... how do you get an injured champ? only seems to see them when the battle is lost.

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January 26, 2012 8:12:26 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Currently you have to lose the battle entirely, in .76 any hero that is defeated in battle gains an injury.

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January 26, 2012 8:22:10 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting CdrRogdan,

I am against the above listed changes, as they are far too debilitating and the AI will be an even worse opponent than it is currently. With proper tactical management it is difficult to lose a hero during combat but that doesn't mean you should cripple players (or the AI) for making mistakes.

Personally I agree that they are far too minimal in their effect, but many of the injuries could be better balanced by simply doubling their effect. While some of them need reworking (even 20 xp is laughable) your suggestions go too far the other way. If I mess up, or some monster gets a lucky crit I don't want that hero to lose 25% or more of his/her effectiveness.

Fair enough, maybe I overdid it a bit. Even 3str would be better than 1str. It wouldn't necessarily scale with progress, though, but still something you can feel.

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January 26, 2012 8:40:41 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums


Perhaps  amnesia could be one one where you lose one of your benefits (way of the warror etc) at random.  you would then be one bonus pick behind a character that had not fallen, even if you selected it again.

A 1 in 10 chance of death where you have gone to more negative hit points than your maximum (so -41 if you have 41 max hits)  doesn't sound at all unreasonable.

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January 26, 2012 8:46:30 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

How about that some battle scars could give positive traits as well as negative ones? Any real warrior has battle scars! Maybe your hero could get something negative but your army could get something positive. A real battle commander should not shun away from a real fight and will sooner or later get a scar or two, would not your soldiers see that as a good token?

I for one think that this could be a really cool thing, a hero who has lost a ear or two or something else but who´s men believe in him since he never shuns a battle and never retreats. Who would you rather follow into battle? And old seasoned veteran of many battles with several scars to show for it or a clean crisp knight with not a scratch on him?

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January 26, 2012 8:49:12 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Maybe, but currently I think it needs to be more punishing before we start giving out rewards for dying.

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January 26, 2012 8:53:52 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I feel there should be injuries, not all, but some, that resemble this:

 

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January 26, 2012 9:18:05 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Well, your heroes will be cripples, but if the at the same time give a boost to he army you bring with you might prevent ppl from reloading all the time. Especially if you get a really nasty injury... Then you might very well keep those heroes instead of sending them to a early grave or something.

 

But yeah, might be a thing for the future... Though I´m not really a big fan of getting my heroes full with wounds if I can prevent it. Which I can since I use the reload function from time to time. A thing which I really hate to do, and something like this would prevent me from using it.

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January 26, 2012 9:21:37 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I think stronger injuries would be a mistake, because they would hurt the AI more while the player loads the last save.

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January 26, 2012 9:28:33 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Most people save and reload, get use to it, its NOT cheating. Thats just elitist propaganda that says everyone has to play games the hardcore player way. Heres a Tip, blatant cheating usually gets patched out of games, if you dont like it, thats your deal but it makes you look like a elitist snob to make silly comments like saving is cheating.

 

Also, yeah we dont need heavy injuries on anything but higher difficulty levels, its silly ideas like this that make me wonder if elitist players who only want hardcore players playing actually want a game to succeed.

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January 26, 2012 9:29:33 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Zaisha,
Something to keep in mind is that if injuries are too crippeling, they simply create the "reload save before battle" impulse that a dead champion has. A champion that becomes effectively useless after one or two lost fights might as well be dead. 

 

I just have to say that I strongly dislike the save and reload agruments that pops up everywhere. If someone wants to save and reload to make the game easier, then so be it.

Game developers should NOT care about this at all. I only reload if I misclick a button that I did not intend to click. I dont want FE or any other game to be made easier to play, cause people can just reload bad desicions or bad luck if they want to. If I do a gamble (a risky attack on a big monster) and fail, then I want to be punished for it. I dont want a slap on my heros wrist and continue to play with no consequence.

 

Just had to vent this in no general direction

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January 26, 2012 9:34:32 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I vote for this myself, injuries as they stand are laughably minor.  I like the idea of a range of seriousness, and the idea of retiring heroes to manage cities.  Shouldn't gangrened hand make the hero one-handed?  This would make it the worst, but the character would be an individual.

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January 26, 2012 9:37:05 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting LordRikerQ,
Most people save and reload, get use to it, its NOT cheating. Thats just elitist propaganda that says everyone has to play games the hardcore player way. Heres a Tip, blatant cheating usually gets patched out of games, if you dont like it, thats your deal but it makes you look like a elitist snob to make silly comments like saving is cheating.

There are 10 000 other scenarios in this game where a reload can save you from certain doom. Why should this logic apply ONLY to injuries?

Did you know you can LOSE BATTLES in this game? That's a feature a quick reload will save you from. WE SHOULD REMOVE THE ABILITY TO LOSE BATTLES!!!!!!

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