Some pre-beta video blogging of FE’s economy

By on November 25, 2011 1:28:00 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001
+1491

This is me in the debugger so bear that in mind as you watch this:

http://screencast.com/t/QJhXaIbR

Locked Post 52 Replies
Search this post
Subscription Options


Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 26, 2011 11:40:08 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

If I need workers, I need to go out, find them, and offer proper terms for them to agree to work for me. I don't need to get a degree on how to do it, or ask scholars and specialists "how do I get the more awesome heroes? If you don't know yet please go back to your studies and let me know as soon as you do" (at least not until bureaucracy takes over).

It normally is a very natural process. If you have little to offer, only desperate people will be wanting to work for you. If a position next to you is regarded as prestigious and safe, then you'll attract more of the capable/proven ones.

At least this is how I see it.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 26, 2011 11:49:47 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I agree, defending little caravans that are traveling throughout my kingdom was extremely tedious in WoM.

However, there should still be a road building/trade route system, with implied caravans (see Civ !V, Civ V.)  Roads could still come under attack by bandits and such, but with the right mechanic it's much easier to rebuild a damaged road than it is to micromanage those caravans.

IMO, if you are willing to build an outpost way off in a dim forest or burning desert for the valuable resources that lie there, there ought to be a substantial risk and cost in keeping that gravy train a-flowing.  Also, since there are probably no basic resources near the outpost (food, materials) you should probably need to transport said resources TO the outpost to supply the workers at the outpost with their basic needs.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 26, 2011 11:52:15 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

In fact, building roads could be as simple as a button on the city screen that says "build road to", and it shows your gold cost, materials cost, and upkeep cost, and VOILA! a road auto-magically appears.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 26, 2011 11:56:29 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums
Is that really such a big problem in practise? Everyone is playing by the same rules so for game balance it's not an issue. Personally I'd rather see Frogboy spend his AI time on existing features than try to cough up new stuff for transporting a resource safely between places A and B. Which probably would be a rather demanding task and as such wouldn't even get implemented into the AI and provide gamey tricks for players.
Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 26, 2011 1:44:23 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

mqpiffle, I think a simpler solution to the far away outpost risk system might be better. Outpost upkeep could be relative to both how far the outpost is from your nearest town and how far away it is from the nearest ZoC that has a town inside it.

This would mean that it is cheaper to have outposts inside your ZoC than out in the wilderness (logical), and it is cheaper to have outposts near a town than far from a town even if inside your borders (logical again). I think the road-under-attack system might just be kind of annoying or at least not that much fun.

But I still support having roads in the game and maybe some bonuses to outposts connected with roads (reduced upkeep?).

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 26, 2011 2:44:01 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I think it would be more interesting to connect the outpost maintenance with population. Lets say the road between outpost and capital needs to be defended. Default is no defense, which gives you X amount of resources from that outpost each turn. Poor defense gives 2X, Medium 3X and Good defense give 4X.The better defense you want, the more population you will have to tie up (which means less production etc).

And it should not require you to build something, it should just be a choice in a menu. Similar to lowering or raising taxes.

 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 26, 2011 3:11:41 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

There are plenty of ways to handle defense of roads/caravans without making the user move troops around constantly.  As long as theirs a logical system that allows the player to make those choices without adding to the micromanagement then requiring roads/caravans to connect cities and outposts adds to the game.  Just off the top of my head:

  1. Caravan's have levels like cities.  Level 1 is an undefended caravan (dude in a covered wagon).  Level 2 is that same dude with a few hired swords.  Level 3 is full armed caravans.  Level 4 is a nationally patrolled road defended by soldiers equal to the most common unit type in your kingdom.
  2. Cities have an upgrade that allow patrolling of roads.  Require the upgrade at both ends for full patrolling or make the upgrade at each end create stronger patrols.  Caravans are defended at the expense of population and maintenance.  
  3. Outposts near a road act as a ZOC patrol sort of thing. 
  4. The ability to garrison troops in a road just like in a city.  Those troops are then assigned to road patrol.  This has the added benefit of allowing you to shift resources to dangerous roads and away from those that are protected by virtue of being in the center of your society.  

Any one of these allows us to keep the (in my mind) useful and interesting need to connect the disparate parts of your empire somehow (river, road, coastline, etc) while also removing the WOM nightmare of protecting the roads by moving troops around or parking them in enough locations to protect the road.  They also add potentially interesting tactical battle scenarios where you could potentially set up a battle type where the objective isn't just attacker vs. defender but attacker vs. defender trying to protect something (where the attacker could be successful not just by beating the defender but by reaching a point and then escaping without dying).  

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 26, 2011 3:31:26 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting mqpiffle,
I hope you need to set up a trade route to the outpost to really make it useful.  Setting up an outpost in the middle of nowhere and having it contribute in full measure to your economy without connecting it to your capital seems a little whack.

 

So you want the traderoute just to make it realistic?

 

I believe that shoehorning in realism will make a bad game. If your suggestion would get implemented and people would start complaining, then what is Stardock gonna defend their designdecision with?   "It's realistic" <--- Complete failure of an argument.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 26, 2011 5:26:37 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

If you want "harassable" trade routes, maybe implement it in a way where if enemy occupies your trade route (road in practice), the revenue will be cut down 20% per turn. If the route is open, it will rise 5% per turn until the maximum value of the route is achieved.

This way defending your roads would be important, but you could not lose a caravan. Losing caravan units is just boring (rebuild it, send it to destination and get it killed again... who bothers). Also, an enemy unit that manages to sneak in would not cause a lot of havoc in single turn. From coding standpoint this should be somewhat easy to implement, too.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 26, 2011 5:34:13 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Kantok,
Caravan's have levels like cities. Level 1 is an undefended caravan (dude in a covered wagon). Level 2 is that same dude with a few hired swords. Level 3 is full armed caravans. Level 4 is a nationally patrolled road defended by soldiers equal to the most common unit type in your kingdom.
Cities have an upgrade that allow patrolling of roads. Require the upgrade at both ends for full patrolling or make the upgrade at each end create stronger patrols. Caravans are defended at the expense of population and maintenance.
Outposts near a road act as a ZOC patrol sort of thing.
The ability to garrison troops in a road just like in a city. Those troops are then assigned to road patrol. This has the added benefit of allowing you to shift resources to dangerous roads and away from those that are protected by virtue of being in the center of your society.

 

Now this is how I view infrastructure 

 

 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 27, 2011 1:17:51 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Wouldn't the best way to harass trade routes be to attack the outpost and wipe them out? I feel little need for any connection to an outpost because there is also no connection between cities. Why would an outpost need something that a city doesn't? If you are worried about realism, this is a fantasy game. If you are worried about lore, the goods are either delivered by a third party merchant guild or teleported, whichever is cheapest for that location. If you are worried about gameplay, the current mechanics are better than anything else suggested here. 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 27, 2011 10:19:52 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting seanw3,
Wouldn't the best way to harass trade routes be to attack the outpost and wipe them out?
Only if the outpost isn't defended, or if you have the forces to take it. And that still leaves the 'problem' of having outposts that can be completely disconnected from you empire, but still contributing to it somehow.

If you are worried about realism, this is a fantasy game. If you are worried about lore, the goods are either delivered by a third party merchant guild or teleported, whichever is cheapest for that location.
It's not about realism for realism's sake. It is about immersion. To me it doesn't really feel like I'm building a new civilization from the wastelands if there is somehow a completely functioning trade network already there that can magically transport goods all over the planet.

I feel little need for any connection to an outpost because there is also no connection between cities. Why would an outpost need something that a city doesn't?

If you are worried about gameplay, the current mechanics are better than anything else suggested here. 
You must be playing the beta then, if you can speak with such authority about how the game works and if it's any good...

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 27, 2011 12:38:16 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I am not supposed to say anything but the real fanboys got it before turkey day. 

For some reason Lord Xia opted for the Pony instead. That was also a choice. 

 

But yes, immersion is an issue. I have a borderline alternate dimension kind of imagination. I never have a problem with that sort of thing. I would be all for a bit of logic lore game mechanic that doesn't cripple the AI or make outposts useless due to micromanagement, but until Derek stops tazing everyone in the office every time they think of a solution, I am going to assume there is a merchant guild. I will even post a backstory for them on the forums and mention them in my quests. The merchant thing also solves the upcoming boats dilemma. 

As I am sure Newton said, "Life is a puzzle, sometimes you have to force a piece in where you know that it fits."

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 27, 2011 1:26:40 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Xia wanted a pony, but got a chicken instead. 

 

 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 27, 2011 1:30:25 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting seanw3,
But yes, immersion is an issue. I have a borderline alternate dimension kind of imagination. I never have a problem with that sort of thing. I would be all for a bit of logic lore game mechanic that doesn't cripple the AI or make outposts useless due to micromanagement, but until Derek stops tazing everyone in the office every time they think of a solution, I am going to assume there is a merchant guild. I will even post a backstory for them on the forums and mention them in my quests.

This is the kind of thing that makes me wish you guys lived closer. You'd totally get along with us.

I don't want to go on a tangent here but you read these articles by developers who say you shouldn't visit your own forums.  But the thing is, I make software BECAUSE I like online forums.  Every product we make, even the non-games, have community sites around them. I just like this kind of discussion a lot.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 27, 2011 1:31:31 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

ONe thing about caravans:

The behavior in WOM was a miscommunication.  They were supposed to work the same way that trade routes in GalCiv did.  If one was destroyed, another got automatically made.  You weren't supposed to have to retrain another caravan.

This is fixed (or should be) in FE.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 27, 2011 2:50:37 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Frogboy,
ONe thing about caravans:

The behavior in WOM was a miscommunication.  They were supposed to work the same way that trade routes in GalCiv did.  If one was destroyed, another got automatically made.  You weren't supposed to have to retrain another caravan.

This is fixed (or should be) in FE.

 

Thats good to hear.

 

Can we assign guards to them?

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 27, 2011 3:48:36 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

It's really nice that caravans will automatically respawn, although I hope their is a significant penalty for losing a caravan.

As for protecting caravans with guards... I don't see how that would work. For one it would take some coding work better spent elsewhere. Secondly, a generic guard unit would be have scaling problems and would probably be useless. I think the game would be diminished anyway if you could simply press a button to hire some automatic guards that would make caravans monster proof.  Assigning designed units to guard caravans would also take a lot of micro and unless the units are mounted probably slow the caravan down. Also why would you want to split your army up so much? I really don't see why it is necessary anyway, I have no problem protecting my caravans by simply garrisoning my borders and killing any monsters that show up. Only problem is areas under AI control where the AI lets the monster run around, and a better AI would fix that. If you really worried about defending long caravan routes then I imagine a strategic placement of outposts and troops would work without the need for some elaborate caravan guarding mechanic.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 27, 2011 5:18:24 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Can we have an option to have our caravans controlled by the AI?  I often forget that I've built a caravan,  or I send it out in a certain direction and then forget about it, and since its not part of the normal "find next unit who hasn't moved" command, it ends up sitting there for yonks.  It would be good if we could just have a setting we could turn on to leave it up to the computer to manage them for us.  Civilization lets you do the same thing with workers where you can leave them automated.  They often did things that pissed me off, but at least it was optional that I didn't have to micro-manage them.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 27, 2011 5:25:36 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

In GalCiv the trade ships could get weapons and defenses. There was also a wonder that made them unassailable. Wouldn't mind seeing that in FE. 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 27, 2011 5:40:09 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Campaigner,
So you want the traderoute just to make it realistic?



I believe that shoehorning in realism will make a bad game. If your suggestion would get implemented and people would start complaining, then what is Stardock gonna defend their designdecision with? "It's realistic" <--- Complete failure of an argument.

No.

I simply tend to like strategy games that involve certain strategic decisions to impose a certain amount of strategic depth which leads to certain strategic consequences which must be dealt with strategically in order to advance in the strategic game.

If there's nothing to do than why bother doing it?

BTW thanks for the reply Brad.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 28, 2011 4:52:27 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I like how this is shown in Total war games. When you have the roads and invest in trade buildings automatically the wagons are appearing and begin to travel. That's a nice feature showing the 'living' province.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 29, 2011 5:01:45 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

What I'd like to see with caravans is that they deliver the bonuses when they reach your destination- gold for one side, something else for the other.

 

You can build improvements to routes to increase the yield.  Trading within your civ just provides gold though.  Trading outside your civ provides same gold but also other resources. 

 

Amounts would be based on levels of cities, bonus resources (impacts what you get), safety of route (yields increase safely for each safe journey, based largely on distance of route- the more the better), and upgrading routes .

 

Caravans do get auto-rebuilt, but it resets the safety counter.  Upgrading a route gives guards to caravans, but costs gold and materials.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 29, 2011 8:30:58 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting seanw3,
I am not supposed to say anything but the real fanboys got it before turkey day. 

For some reason Lord Xia opted for the Pony instead. That was also a choice. 

 

But yes, immersion is an issue. I have a borderline alternate dimension kind of imagination. I never have a problem with that sort of thing. I would be all for a bit of logic lore game mechanic that doesn't cripple the AI or make outposts useless due to micromanagement, but until Derek stops tazing everyone in the office every time they think of a solution, I am going to assume there is a merchant guild. I will even post a backstory for them on the forums and mention them in my quests. The merchant thing also solves the upcoming boats dilemma. 

As I am sure Newton said, "Life is a puzzle, sometimes you have to force a piece in where you know that it fits."

 

This is a very interesting thing you've said. How may we have access to this pre turkey day release? While I've not been vocal here on the forums, I've owned WOM since release, and been orbiting the forums almost daily since for every sweet update morsel of FE info! Stardock central doesn't seem to work for me, so perhaps you could lead me to this secret release?  I'm addicted to GC2 and WOM, I need my next fix!!!!

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 29, 2011 11:28:22 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums


I'm pretty sure seanw3 was joking.  No one currently has the beta other than Stardockians.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
Stardock Forums v1.0.0.0    #108433  walnut3   Server Load Time: 00:00:00.0000281   Page Render Time: