How do they get away with treason?

My thoughts, what's yours?

By on November 4, 2011 12:54:35 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Grizzyloins

Join Date 09/2010
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If one/a group is trying to take over the world, then what is the best way to do it?  People throughout time tried by taking their countries & attempt to take out all the rest - has never succeeded (Kahns, Ceasars, Alexander, Napolean, etc.(except maybe once in the bible, can't remember the guys name but all nations under one law & one language allowing for total control - this God didn't want and so dispersed humans so that they would once again be seperate by language & nation- don't know all facts here as I havn't read that part in it's entirety yet).  So what would work? Well my beliefs are that one way is to trick a nation into believing that what you offer behoves them to such a great extent as to offer you the 'reigns'/control of said nation.  This is clearly a difficult task as many nations wouldn't care to change the way they are currently unless something happens that causes them to think otherwise.  Example: The United Nations - formed to prevent another World War, only myself or the group trying to take over could support the Nazis long enough & make them Evil enough, so that countries would see the 'need' to join togather under a 'one' governing power/defense/leadership which in time goes from it provides proctection to it provides leadership/laws/currency (Thomas Jefferson- "A national bank is more dangerous than any standing army) and so on.  Once Germany had accomplished this task then they were no longer needed & the 'group taking the world' would simply switch & go against them with the members that were leading the new 'Safe' all governing power.  Ofcourse this is easier to do when your group has powerful positions in a large number of countries (Free masons/skull & dagger (the Bush presidents were both part of this one)/etc.). 

 

Example: the United States, was supposed to be seperate governing states united by a common defense (for common defense is used alot), but once those 'reigns' are given then so is the State's freedom to govern themselves (May take time but the 'seed' has been planted), the U.S. dollar was an important currency, not one the U.S. would give up willingly, hence the crippling of our economy by any means necessary.   Currently (I believe the European nations have already been 'conquered' into one nation, the U.S. is almost there & being used to conquor other nations that would resist, once the great war comes then the United Nations will come in & say that they offer the peace we all want).   Think of all the riots in all the different countries right now, the U.S. Leadership doesn't care about the people in those places but more about setting up a government that will do as the 'group' wishes.  Iraq was a fairly powerful country, had strong currency, & a leader that was evil enough to give the U.S. a valid reason for setting up a puppet gov there, one more in line with the One World Theology while crippling the economy at the same time (was like 3=1 U.S. Dollar, now something like 1= 1 US penny (Something close to this now). 

 

I tried to keep religion out of this as much as possible but hard to do when speaking what 'I' think.  With the attack on every part of U.S. lives being the, ethics, morals, honor, tv, music, 'the familiy', our rights/laws, currency, land ownership, beliefs you name it, I would almost challenge you to find something not under attack.  I believe this is all leading to the one world government wich will have to with the mark of the beast (One currency).  I myself have already been labled an enemy of the country because I support the "Tea Party = US citizens", anyone who speaks up or witnessed something or knows too much is taken down by a veriety of diff. means, weather it be smashing there reputation, plane crash, car crash, suicide, you name it.

 

Anyway, so many of our FE post were being taken up by politics I thought I would give us this post to rant on.  For a non-religious solution = if the peasants in every country killed all Governing officials, those in secret orders, and those with more than 1 billion dollars then we as a planet might last a bit longer - for a religious solution = pray your *sses off cause this if fortold in the bible - my thoughts

 

Edit: Sorry if hard to read, sorta brainstormed´╗┐

 

 

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November 9, 2011 3:18:42 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Kantok,



Quoting jackswift85,
reply 59
The only people I know getting food stamps & living in trailers are ones that are almost done with their PhD candidacy or DVM degrees. Yeah, pretty lazy people that are a drain on society... 


Why should taxpayers be paying for someone to eat while they get their PhD exactly?  

Interesting. They get food stamps like anyone else - they make less than the required monthly income. Being a full-time student (especially a graduate student) leaves very little, if any, time to work and make money. Should they not get food stamps because they're getting a degree that will leave them with ~$60,000-$100,000 in debt? Maybe you think it was an unwise choice to rack up that debt with student loans: does that mean then only the rich should try and become doctors? Are they less deserving of food stamps than an undergraduate who's working at McDonalds to pay for rent, books, health insurance and the occasional date with his girlfriend? What if the person at McDonald's isn't an undergraduate but a high-school dropout who's just looking for money to score some weed?

How would you draw the line for food stamps?

edit: Looks like DrJHBL already had posted some of the same thoughts and you answered some of my questions. I guess you can skip to the last question: how would you implement food stamps to be need based instead of income based?

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November 9, 2011 3:33:15 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting Kantok,
Seems like we largely agree unless I'm completely missing your point.

We do indeed. And "my salute and thank you" to you and your wife for your service... one vet to another (me - IDF).

If we don't talk before the 11th, have a well earned Veteran's Day.

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November 9, 2011 3:34:59 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting jackswift85,

Quoting Kantok, reply 61


Quoting jackswift85,
reply 59
The only people I know getting food stamps & living in trailers are ones that are almost done with their PhD candidacy or DVM degrees. Yeah, pretty lazy people that are a drain on society... 


Why should taxpayers be paying for someone to eat while they get their PhD exactly?  


Interesting. They get food stamps like anyone else - they make less than the required monthly income. Being a full-time student (especially a graduate student) leaves very little, if any, time to work and make money. Should they not get food stamps because they're getting a degree that will leave them with ~$60,000-$100,000 in debt? Maybe you think it was an unwise choice to rack up that debt with student loans: does that mean then only the rich should try and become doctors? Are they less deserving of food stamps than an undergraduate who's working at McDonalds to pay for rent, books, health insurance and the occasional date with his girlfriend? What if the person at McDonald's isn't an undergraduate but a high-school dropout who's just looking for money to score some weed?

How would you draw the line for food stamps?

I don't think it's an unwise choice to rack up student loans.  As someone who did it once already in my life, and in a mostly unemployable degree field at that, I understand the difficulty of the decision.  But lets not forget that it is a choice.  PhD candidates are not poor and down on their luck like the traditional recipient of government help.  They're highly capable adults who voluntarily put themselves in a position of low income now in the hopes of higher future income.  If they're unable or unwilling to work to support themselves while pursuing their degree they should take larger student loans.  Government assistance is the avenue of last resort, not easiest resort.  

Now, if you don't think you're PhD is going to pay off those larger student loans then maybe you're chasing the wrong degree field. 

The simple answer is just what DrJBHL point out.  A combination of means testing and work effort should be required for any student to receive this sort of government assistance.  If they're able and willing to work (and actually working) and have maxed their student loan potential and still can't make enough to live on then by all means we should give them a hand.  

People seem to forget, or obscure, the fact that government benefits are money taken out of the hands of your fellow citizens.  You should have significant need before other citizens are forced to support you.  "I'm busy getting my PhD and never planned for how I'd support myself in the process" in and of itself doesn't count as significant need.  

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November 9, 2011 3:36:47 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting DrJBHL,

Quoting Kantok, reply 75Seems like we largely agree unless I'm completely missing your point.

We do indeed. And "my salute and thank you" to you and your wife for your service... one vet to another (me - IDF).

If we don't talk before the 11th, have a well earned Veteran's Day.

Same to you sir.  

I hope things go well for your former compatriots in the coming days.  It is not the best of situations in that part of the world right now.  

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November 9, 2011 4:10:56 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting Kantok,
Same to you sir.
I hope things go well for your former compatriots in the coming days. It is not the best of situations in that part of the world right now.

Not the best, no. Only people who have borne arms understand why that should be the last "choice". In war, there are no winners, only survivors.  

 

Quoting Kantok,
"I'm busy getting my PhD and never planned for how I'd support myself in the process"

Reminds me of what's been said by kryo and others regarding personal responsibility and pregnancy (voluntary, that is). Lack of planning on one (or more) person's part does not necessarily constitute an emergency for someone else.

As for food stamps? I'll be damned before I see someone starve. If the person sells those stamps for drugs then he/she needs to be in treatment. One ride, and make it count.

 

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November 9, 2011 5:09:37 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Kantok,


I don't think it's an unwise choice to rack up student loans.  As someone who did it once already in my life, and in a mostly unemployable degree field at that, I understand the difficulty of the decision.  But lets not forget that it is a choice.  PhD candidates are not poor and down on their luck like the traditional recipient of government help.  They're highly capable adults who voluntarily put themselves in a position of low income now in the hopes of higher future income.  If they're unable or unwilling to work to support themselves while pursuing their degree they should take larger student loans.  Government assistance is the avenue of last resort, not easiest resort.  

Now, if you don't think you're PhD is going to pay off those larger student loans then maybe you're chasing the wrong degree field. 

The simple answer is just what DrJBHL point out.  A combination of means testing and work effort should be required for any student to receive this sort of government assistance.  If they're able and willing to work (and actually working) and have maxed their student loan potential and still can't make enough to live on then by all means we should give them a hand.  

People seem to forget, or obscure, the fact that government benefits are money taken out of the hands of your fellow citizens.  You should have significant need before other citizens are forced to support you.  "I'm busy getting my PhD and never planned for how I'd support myself in the process" in and of itself doesn't count as significant need.

Yep, I totally agree. As a graduate student myself I was perturbed by the assumption that PhD candidates shouldn't qualify for food stamps, but there certainly are mitigating circumstances when comes to "need".

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November 10, 2011 11:04:39 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I can see both sides to the Ph.D. thing.   The problem is that Ph.D.'s are generally regarded as upper class.  Why do you have middle-class people paying for Ph.D.'s to achieve upper class....   Is that reality?  Not exactly, on multiple counts.  But the perception is understandable.

However, in economics, growing the education level of your constituency is categorized as growing your economic base.  It's like a farmer spending money to buy more fertile land.  You make an investment...it pays back itself and then some in time.   It's like the state (which is made up of the people) investing in its constituency, in the hopes that the investment pays itself back economically back in time.   I'm inclined to agree with this viewpoint.   However, some people in the middle- and lower-classes view any kind of economics with disdain.

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November 11, 2011 10:06:30 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

"Upper....middle...lower classes..."

How.....quaint....

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November 11, 2011 11:20:55 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

wow... that was great, reminds me of all the English comedy I watched growin up

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November 12, 2011 9:50:55 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

About food stamps and advanced degrees.  Not all people earning a masters are going into high paying careers.  Mine certainally wasn't a high paying career.  Secondly, yes, its a choice. And some can argue that an adult choosing to live poor for a time to earn a degree is 'taking' money from other taxpayers.  Perhaps so.  But in the US, at least, during the past 30 years, automation has increased the productivity of workers - while wages have, at best, remained flat.  Someone reaped an obscene mountain of money (value) from this 'arraingment.'  The arraingment was brokerd by 'our' government.  Massive amouts of wealth has been funnled into hands of the wealthiest 'citizens/corporations,' many of whom pay no taxes and receive additional cash/resource 'gifts' from the government (the taxpayers).  The larger context in which these food stamp transfers happen does matter.

So, why do people continually harp on some poor people who abuse food stamps, while also supporting a corrupt political/economic system?  By support, I mean either not mentioning this larger, more massive, white collar free-loading, or actually justifying this massive, white collar free-loading under the guise of 'free markets,' and 'capitalism,' when targeting the 'abuses' of people at the bottom end of the ecomomic jungle?  Doesn't seem fair and balanced to me.

 

 

 

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November 12, 2011 12:10:43 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting ElanaAhova,
About food stamps and advanced degrees.  Not all people earning a masters are going into high paying careers.  Mine certainally wasn't a high paying career.  Secondly, yes, its a choice. And some can argue that an adult choosing to live poor for a time to earn a degree is 'taking' money from other taxpayers.  Perhaps so.  But in the US, at least, during the past 30 years, automation has increased the productivity of workers - while wages have, at best, remained flat.  Someone reaped an obscene mountain of money (value) from this 'arraingment.'  The arraingment was brokerd by 'our' government.  Massive amouts of wealth has been funnled into hands of the wealthiest 'citizens/corporations,' many of whom pay no taxes and receive additional cash/resource 'gifts' from the government (the taxpayers).  The larger context in which these food stamp transfers happen does matter.

So, why do people continually harp on some poor people who abuse food stamps, while also supporting a corrupt political/economic system?  By support, I mean either not mentioning this larger, more massive, white collar free-loading, or actually justifying this massive, white collar free-loading under the guise of 'free markets,' and 'capitalism,' when targeting the 'abuses' of people at the bottom end of the ecomomic jungle?  Doesn't seem fair and balanced to me.
 

The discussion at hand was PhD students and food stamps (among a few other things), not the larger problems in society. That's probably why no one has mentioned other issues (although some of the things discussed here are certainly generalizable to larger problems).  I'm sorry, but anyone pursuing a PhD is a highly capable individual.  By and large they are purposefully forgoing earning potential for something they see as a benefit (love of a subject, higher future earning potential, whatever).  These are NOT the people the social safety net is meant to help.  It's meant to help people that can't help themselves get to the point where they CAN help themselves.  I'm not saying no one pursuing a PhD should get assistance, but that assistance should absolutely be conditioned about a significant number of things.  

As for the larger problems in society, they really all come back to the same issue.  No one wants responsibility for anything.  People would rather bitch and whine than actually take the time to pay attention, study current economic and political conditions, and learn about HOW we've gotten into this giant mess.  It's easier just to find a scapegoat and whine that the government needs to fix our problems.  And if you need any proof that this is true, just look at the cities parks full of morons whining about corporations ruining the world when the barest bit of attention and research will show you that our problems are not corporate in origin, they're political in origin.  

The problems all stem from politicians rigging a system they barely understand towards their favored groups or policies.  These politicians have literally no concept of the consequences of their actions.  The entire housing and credit bubbles were not caused by corporate greed.  They were caused by politicians pushing those markets into areas they wouldn't otherwise have gone.  Capital will ALWAYS go towards opportunity.  That's the essence of capitalism.  Politicians rigged the market to make risky investments and expansive credit potentially profitable in ways that would never have existed otherwise (and traditionally didn't exist).  Bubbles by their very nature must pop.  Politicians just continually delayed the pop because it would hurt their favored policies and in doing so ensured the burst was more painful.  

But going back to the idiots in parks (and in reality the larger ideology they represent), they're going to continue to bemoan the very system that has created the immense wealth and productivity responsible for the massively available college education system, their favorite iDevices, their favored eco friendly cars, etc all while continuing to vote for many of the same politicians that forced the skewed regulatory policies that caused the bubbles in the first place.  All because it's easier to be loud, ignorant, and demanding of short term benefit than informed and making choices that have short term hardship in return for long term prosperity. 

Was their greed on Wall Street?  Absolutely.  We're human beings.  There is greed in every endeavor.  Denying that is just asking to be lied to and ripped off.  The problem is that politicians messed with a system they barely understood (because they're by and large uninformed) and in doing so allowed that greed to move into areas it was previously regulated from going to.  Hence easy credit, bad loans, larger than feasible banks packaging poorly backstopped securities all based on a government psuedo-guarantee leading to a society allowed to live WAY beyond its means.

And before people jump on a partisan bandwagon this goes beyond either party in the US.  Both parties are equally to blame (though I'd argue for vastly different reasons).  And in reality the blame ultimately falls not on politicians, but on us as citizens.  We were content to live the lie because it got us nicer houses, a nicer second car, two or three computers instead of one family computer, and the ability to have a Wii, Xbox, and PS3 rather than having to choose one.  The facts involved are not all that difficult to understand.  We just chose not to because we wanted easy street and now we are looking for scapegoats.  Own up, admit that we voted for these assclowns, and for fucks sake start paying attention.  Don't kill every politician who says that we have some hard choices to make and may have to cut some popular handouts or scale back government guarantees on things (mortgages, credit, and college loans in particular).  Until we're willing to admit we may have to own more of our future rather than relying on some ambiguous government program to guarantee that we're on easy street we're going to stay on an unsustainable path because that's what our votes are telling politicians we want.  

 

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November 12, 2011 1:19:11 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I think arguing that politicians are to blame is a hard argument to win. At this point the financial institutions, politicians, and corporations are a bit hard to define, as far as who is controlling whom. The truth is they are all in league to some degree and all of them caused the economic crisis we are now dealing with. Kantok, what are you saying exactly here, "Politicians rigged the market to make risky investments and expansive credit potentially profitable in ways that would never have existed otherwise?" Was that by decreasing regulation or do you know of specific party members that actually shaped policy to lead to this economic powder keg? 

I believe the true problem with our society is capitalism; the basis that cheap labor and lowest price for resources are the ideal circumstances for the economy. While there is currently no better system of economy, I think the goal of profit is a fundamentally flawed concept. It disassociates the motivation for labor with the art of laboring. I think Marx was at least partially right in his critiques of the failures of capitalism. While the soviet experiment did not succeed I look forward to a day when the art of labor is motivation in itself to sufficiently propel our society. Until then it is important to imagine better ways of doing things, to protest injustice, and to bitch about capitalism's failings so that we as Americans don't become complacent enough to think that capitalism is anything more than a steppingstone to the American dream. 

I also think it is naive to think that politicians are appropriately representing those that vote for them. Once again, it is the dollars coming in from the other two parts that truly decide how a politician will act once elected. And for that matter, our entire voting system is based on economic output instead of the number of people. Maybe they should just simplify things by having one's net worth decide how many votes one gets. 

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November 12, 2011 1:50:43 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

The crisis was multifactorial. Not possible to lay at just one doorstep.

Ridiculous, unsecured loans/mortgages to people without jobs or savings. No recovery because the value has been leeched out of homes (traditionally the rallying point in a Recession) for stupid toys, cars and the lifestyle of the rich and famous.

Irresponsible deregulation, repeal of Glass-Steagall Act of 1933 in 1999, on and on. Credit drying up (from China), no manufacturing and actually selling something abroad.

"The crisis was not a natural disaster, but the result of high risk, complex financial products; undisclosed conflicts of interest; and the failure of regulators, the credit rating agencies, and the market itself to rein in the excesses of Wall Street." - Levin-Coburn Report

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November 12, 2011 3:40:44 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting seanw3,
While the soviet experiment did not succeed I look forward to a day when the art of labor is motivation in itself to sufficiently propel our society.  

I have a few responses here, but am about to run out the door.  I couldn't let this pass though.

The Soviet Union wasn't an "experiment".  It was one of the worst examples of human evil writ large in our history.  It was a totalitarian monstrosity responsible for the wholesale death of millions of innocent people.  Calling it an experiment is naive and a gross insult to all of those who lived with it.  

I'll write a more substantive response to the rest later.  

Good discussion though.  

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November 14, 2011 5:24:15 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Kantok,

The Soviet Union wasn't an "experiment".  It was one of the worst examples of human evil writ large in our history.  It was a totalitarian monstrosity responsible for the wholesale death of millions of innocent people.  Calling it an experiment is naive and a gross insult to all of those who lived with it.

Would you say Hosking and Suny (two prominent historians of the Soviet Union) are naive? Are there many books and recordings of primary documents a gross insult to all those that lived through it? Nearly every analysis of the life of the Soviet Union begins and ends with the mention of it being an experiment. You should take some time to read a little about the subject of how the soviet experiment was conceived by Lenin and the Socialist Democratic Party before the Bolsheviks split off and seized power. The entire revolution was a Utopian experiment. Lenin believed that Communism as described by Marx could be achieved in Russia without following the natural course of history. Of course it quickly devolved into a proletariat dictatorship. War and famine gave birth to brutal totalitarianism. Wholesale death, as you put it, was the price of revolution. It was a dark chapter of humanity.

That does not mean that the ideals that started the experiment were ignoble or evil. Communism is beautiful, humans are it's only obstacle. Many of the former soviet citizens I am happy to call good friends would agree with that notion. Then they might point out that we are all crazy if we give try it again, but it was an important part of human history. 

I find it particularly funny when someone accuses me of naivety, while being in fact naive in his accusation. 

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November 14, 2011 5:49:52 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting seanw3,

Quoting Kantok, reply 89
The Soviet Union wasn't an "experiment".  It was one of the worst examples of human evil writ large in our history.  It was a totalitarian monstrosity responsible for the wholesale death of millions of innocent people.  Calling it an experiment is naive and a gross insult to all of those who lived with it.




Would you say Hosking and Suny (two prominent historians of the Soviet Union) are naive? Are there many books and recordings of primary documents a gross insult to all those that lived through it? Nearly every analysis of the life of the Soviet Union begins and ends with the mention of it being an experiment. You should take some time to read a little about the subject of how the soviet experiment was conceived by Lenin and the Socialist Democratic Party before the Bolsheviks split off and seized power. The entire revolution was a Utopian experiment. Lenin believed that Communism as described by Marx could be achieved in Russia without following the natural course of history. Of course it quickly devolved into a proletariat dictatorship. War and famine gave birth to brutal totalitarianism. Wholesale death, as you put it, was the price of revolution. It was a dark chapter of humanity.

That does not mean that the ideals that started the experiment were ignoble or evil. Communism is beautiful, humans are it's only obstacle. Many of the former soviet citizens I am happy to call good friends would agree with that notion. Then they might point out that we are all crazy if we give try it again, but it was an important part of human history. 

I find it particularly funny when someone accuses me of naivety, while being in fact naive in his accusation. 

Right.  And Joseph Mengele was just conducting experiments too.

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November 14, 2011 6:01:35 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting seanw3,
Would you say Hosking and Suny (two prominent historians of the Soviet Union) are naive?

No. Overeducated twits, who have no idea of the degree of the slaughter, devestation and waste that totally bankrupt concept wreaked on those unfortunate to live under such malignant totalitarian despotism, if those are their words.

Quoting seanw3,
Communism is beautiful, humans are it's only obstacle.

Right. So, let's rid the world of humans that it's beauty be properly appreciated.

What? You cannot be serious.

Political systems exist to serve humans, not vice versa. The beautiful ones do so by respecting humanity, value (communism's ultimate internal contradiction), quality of life, individual rights and serve those it governs... not vice versa.

Quoting Kantok,
The Soviet Union wasn't an "experiment". It was one of the worst examples of human evil writ large in our history. It was a totalitarian monstrosity responsible for the wholesale death of millions of innocent people. Calling it an experiment is naive and a gross insult to all of those who lived with it.

Absolutely correct.

*edit... beat me to it, kantok.

Indeed. "Auschwitz, The Original Club Med". Those "fortunate" enough to be there just didn't appreciate its "beauty" now, did they? More human obstacles.

 

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November 14, 2011 6:37:25 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I will avoid quoting as there are too many things to address. 

Overeducated twits? I am sure you haven't read them if that is your opinion. A shame because I usually have a great deal of respect for your opinions, DrJHBL. Admitting that the Soviet Union was an experiment is not mutually exclusive to recognizing the atrocities that it wrought. It seems like some people are having an extremely emotional reaction to a word that accurately describes the first socialist society. I get rather emotional about the horrible cruelty of man, but I also try to keep a level head and try to put things in perspective. Otherwise I would never accomplish anything. 

As to my opinion about humans mucking up Communism, I stand by that. I wouldn't say rid the world of humans, though that seems to have been Stalin's reaction. I merely think that humanity is not ready for a society without greed. Capitalism is the best functioning economic system because there are so many of us that say, "Why should I work harder if I am not getting more for my efforts?" The answer, to me, is that work should be a reward unto itself. The betterment of society is the motivational force, as opposed to personal gain. It is too noble a thought for humanity. Too beautiful and too delicate for me or anyone else that I have met. I still hope that one day out species evolves to the point where Communism can be a reality. We are very far away and you can't rush to the end. That was one of the lessons I learned from the USSR. 

Based on these quick responses, I am guessing everyone here has a poor conception of what Communism was supposed to be. It was supposed to be a republic. That is what the "R" stood for. It was turned into a dictatorship after the Bolsheviks seized power over the multiparty representational body. Communism would be a Utopian society where ownership is a meaningless term. There would be an abundance of everything to the point where owning something simply had no significance. Many people hear the word Communism and immediately go to a dark place. That is fair because of what the Bolsheviks did with their power. I see the ideals. I see the United Federation of Planets. That was also Communism. (If you respond to this point, please specify Soviet Communism or Ideal Communism so that we know exactly what you are talking about.)

 

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November 14, 2011 7:47:28 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting seanw3,
I am sure you haven't read them if that is your opinion.

I haven't, and remarked based on your reporting that they felt this was an "experiment" by implication from your reply #90. There is such a thing as "overeducated"... when the search for a euphemism for Communism results in the word "experiment", which is used to evoke a clean, orderly laboratory with white coated professorial types searching for something of benefit for mankind.

Communism was anything but. It was conceived in carnage and continued down the path of purges, slaughters, betrayal and mass disinformation of the Russian (and satellite) populations.

Gone, not missed and never forgotten, I hope. Horrible to think that misbegotten smear on humankind might, by error be repeated in any shape, way or kind.

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November 14, 2011 7:53:20 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting seanw3,
I will avoid quoting as there are too many things to address. 
Based on these quick responses, I am guessing everyone here has a poor conception of what Communism was supposed to be. It was supposed to be a republic. 
 

This is where the arguments for communism break down.  It doesn't matter what it's supposed to be.  What matters is what it is (or was).  And it was (and is) an ideology that absolutely tramples on the rights of the individual in the name of the collective good.  Except that the "collective good" is always determined by people who sit decidedly above the collective which tends create elitist societies where the uppity collective (or uppity elites) are slaughtered in the name of preserving the status quote for the elites doing the slaughtering.

Human beings are flawed.  We're imperfect and prone to irrational behavior and mistakes.  Despite our best intentions greed, lust, envy, jealousy, and all their generally shitty cousins remain as constant parts of human existence.  These are balanced, of course, by many admirable and wonderful traits like compassion, courage, ambition, love, trust, and their equally wonderful relations.  Communism works splendidly as long as the negative human traits go away and positive traits remain.  The problem, of course, is that the only way the negative human traits go away is if the humans go away. And in reality, if the negative traits that are inherent in humanity went away, we'd have no need for organized civil society.  The Utopian natural order would emerge on its own. 

There's only one system that holds people responsible for both the good and bad traits and it isn't communism.  Is that system flawed?  Certainly.  But at least under this system I have the chance of owning both my own successes and failures.  

There's a reason that communist societies continue to trend capitalist and it's not for hot women.  It's because incentive matters to (flawed) human individuals and communism ignores that fact. 

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November 14, 2011 7:53:31 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Capitalism....Communism...two extremist ideals.

Both flawed.

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November 14, 2011 7:55:16 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting DrJBHL,

Gone, not missed and never forgotten, I hope. Horrible to think that misbegotten smear on humankind might, by error be repeated in any shape, way or kind.

I hope too.  But I'm not optimistic.  

Just look at the negative press within the EU elite get for suggesting that countries hold elections and referendums to decide their societies fate (rather than leaving those decisions up to the educated 'elite' who surely know better than the plebeian masses). 

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November 14, 2011 7:56:53 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Jafo,
Capitalism....Communism...two extremist ideals.

Both flawed.

Without a doubt.  But one allows you the chance to own your own successes as well as own your own failures.  The other does not.  

One is generally accompanied by your individual right to have a say in how you are governed.  The other is generally not.  

To me the choice is clear.  Hope and potential win out over equality of misery. 

 

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November 14, 2011 8:03:21 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting Kantok,
Hope and potential win out over equality of misery.

Wait until you are on the wrong side of the 'inequality of misery' that is capitalism...

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November 14, 2011 8:11:01 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting Jafo,
Capitalism....Communism...two extremist ideals.

Both flawed.

Absolutely.

I do agree. "-isms" should never be allowed to create misery for humans. That includes every political/economic/religious "ism".

My old Grandma used to say, "Too much of anything isn't healthy." Wise person.

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