Derek vs. AI v0.26

First test

By on November 2, 2011 8:02:46 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001
+1491

Derek is currently putting the first FE build of the AI (first build I've checked in) through its paces.

It's a 3 person game, tiny map.

We'll see how it goes.

As the 0.26 version makes clear, the AI is about 25% done.

I'd put the odds of him winning at about 50/50.

The AI is still pretty piss poor compared to what it'll eventually be.

Locked Post 40 Replies
Search this post
Subscription Options


Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 2, 2011 9:00:14 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

If you'd like someone that is significantly worse than Derek to make your AI look better give me a yell.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 2, 2011 11:08:40 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting ,

Derek is currently putting the first FE build of the AI (first build I've checked in) through its paces.

It's a 3 person game, tiny map.

We'll see how it goes.

As the 0.26 version makes clear, the AI is about 25% done.

I'd put the odds of him winning at about 50/50.

The AI is still pretty piss poor compared to what it'll eventually be.

Derek - I'd like to point out Brad gives you a 50/50 chance of beating his piss poor 25% complete AI. Assuming that ratio stays true, you must have a 1/16th chance or so of beating the complete AI? Kael =

[Edit] I'm horrible at math. Brad must mean Derek has a piss poor chance of beating a 100% complete AI.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 3, 2011 3:51:00 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Is that 26% measurement of the AI including the Tactical AI? I hope the love is being equally distributed between the tactical side and the strategic side.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 3, 2011 4:06:14 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I think Tac AI is the 1% we are hoping towards. 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 3, 2011 4:42:33 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

It's great that you have a game designer with a great background give feedback on the AI, imho.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 3, 2011 5:19:52 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

It's been forever - surely Derek must've been beaten by the AI already. Let us know what happened!

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 3, 2011 5:34:22 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

The first A.I. Build is passed. The system goes on-line November 2nd, 2011. Human decisions are removed from strategic defense. FE begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, November 3rd. In a panic, they try to pull the plug.

Three billion human lives ended on November 4, 2011. The survivors of the nuclear fire called the war Judgment Day. They lived only to face a new nightmare – the war against Sovereigns. The computer which controlled the Sovereigns, FE, sent two Champions back through time. Their mission: to destroy the leader of the human Resistance. Derek Paxton.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 3, 2011 12:03:26 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

That is hilarious!

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 3, 2011 2:24:47 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Looks like it was so traumatic for Keal that he won't dare to talk about it.
This looks promising, crabs anyone?

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 3, 2011 2:26:53 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting ,


I'd put the odds of him winning at about 50/50.

I'll take that bet.  Where do I send my money?

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 3, 2011 8:33:17 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

"It's been forever - surely Derek must've been beaten by the AI already. Let us know what happened!"

 

Well I think they mentioned something about there being 'epic' battles, perhaps he's in a stalemate wizard battle

 

 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 4, 2011 5:22:16 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

C´mon, how was the game Derek?

 

I´m pretty sure Derek rushed the AI with no probs. and Brad stood behind him and couldn´t believe what he sees. 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 4, 2011 5:26:37 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Maybe he got cancer from the AI and is now in the hospital.  [e digicons]:'([/e]

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 4, 2011 8:42:09 AM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Quoting seanw3,
Maybe he got cancer from the AI and is now in the hospital.

heh

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 4, 2011 3:43:20 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Heavenfall,
It's great that you have a game designer with a great background give feedback on the AI, imho.

 

Definetly!   It'll be interesting to see what he has to say.

It reminds me of RTS betas where competetive gamers found abusable holes in both the A.I and the balance but mostly how they discovered some new tactic/strategy that completely wrecked the balance cause the designers did not anticipate anyone playing like that.

 

50% chance of winning against an A.I that's 25% done??    Either Brad takes extreme pride in his work OR he doesn't think too highly of Dereks TBS skills

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 4, 2011 4:10:57 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

In all fairness, part of Frogboy's AI could be different flavors. He could be testing the "base" flavor (balanced game approach) versus an aggressive Ai or turtler etc.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 4, 2011 5:26:05 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Campaigner,

Quoting Heavenfall, reply 5It's great that you have a game designer with a great background give feedback on the AI, imho.

 

Definetly!   It'll be interesting to see what he has to say.

It reminds me of RTS betas where competetive gamers found abusable holes in both the A.I and the balance but mostly how they discovered some new tactic/strategy that completely wrecked the balance cause the designers did not anticipate anyone playing like that.

 

50% chance of winning against an A.I that's 25% done??    Either Brad takes extreme pride in his work OR he doesn't think too highly of Dereks TBS skills

I think Brad had his own TBS Skills in mind. I mean, we saw him playing WoM and he lost, because he moved his champs in a tactical battle towards the enemy.   (Sry, Frogboy  )

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 5, 2011 1:05:23 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I suck at tactical battles.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 5, 2011 4:08:49 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Frogboy,
I suck at tactical battles.

 

well then give us an update on how derek has fared instead of leaving us in the suspense..

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 5, 2011 4:56:16 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

That comment could mean that Derek humiliated the AI in tactical battles.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 5, 2011 12:55:43 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Frogboy,
I suck at tactical battles.

Brad, you're good at the TBS aspect of AI right? Then why not apply the same logic to the tactical battles? Instead of thinking of the tactical battle as something different, approach it the same way you'd normally approach the TBS portion of a strategy game.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 5, 2011 1:39:38 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I look forward to the next round.

Brad versus Derek.

 

 

Just kidding.

Go Brad! Crush and humiliate him!

 

 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 5, 2011 2:15:20 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

TheProgress, they're two different beasts, strategic and tactical. Tactical is much more about anticipating and countering your opponent's every single move, whereas strategic is about playing the optimal game and countering the opponent's grand strategy. While both use a TBS system, you can't really apply the exact same way of thinking into creating the AI for them.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 5, 2011 5:37:28 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting TheProgress,

Quoting Frogboy, reply 18I suck at tactical battles.

Brad, you're good at the TBS aspect of AI right? Then why not apply the same logic to the tactical battles? Instead of thinking of the tactical battle as something different, approach it the same way you'd normally approach the TBS portion of a strategy game.

Strategic != Tactical. Very different animals.

As for the Derek vs. AI, we quickly ran into some "world" settings issues. Basically, in 0.26 the seeding of monsters and such made expansion a bit of a luck  of the draw. It's a balance thing. 

If I get a decent starting point, I can absolutely crush the AI without batting an eye.  If I don't, I get crushed instead.  

When you guys get the beta, the first thing you'll notice is that nothing "spawns" throughout the game. It's all there on turn 1. The quests, the monsters, etc.  They don't just "show up" anymore.

So for example, before you go and try for the ability to go on master quests, you should probably make sure you can actually get to master level quests because researching the tech doesn't just magically make said quest appear.

Now, the balancing part comes by deciding where to place these things when the game starts.

In the game I lost to the AI, what happened is that a large troll village was relatively near my starting point and when I walked too closely, they wiped out my key army.

After that, the AI had a big advantage over me.

In another game, the AI started out relatively close to the Wild Lands which are really dangerous to go too close to.

Getting that kind of balance nailed will be crucial over the next few months.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 5, 2011 8:09:48 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I don't see how tactical AI and strategic AI differ conceptually if you simplify the two to their basics. Like you said, you must counter the moves of your opponents. You must position yourself to take advantage of mistakes / openings the opponent makes. Divide and conquer. Make use of the terrain. Etc etc. Both AIs operate under different conditions to be sure, but they both need the same hard logic and reasoning. While the tactical AI is doing this with soldiers the strategic AI is simply doing the same with armies.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
Stardock Forums v1.0.0.0    #101114  walnut1   Server Load Time: 00:00:00.0000172   Page Render Time: