War of Magic: v1.2c change log

By on June 16, 2011 11:13:23 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001
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Change Log: v1.2c

+ Began work to make tactical combat occur simultaneously with the attacker getting a slight advantage (still more to do)
+ City population starts out at 1 instead of 0 so that players can build more things right away (note that it it takes one turn for this to occur at the start of the game)
+ SpecialistCost grows slower and tops out at 10X the base cost
+ Farms no longer cost money to build
+ Minimum default zoom decreased from 6.5 feet (650) to 250 feet (2500) -- this can be overridden in the options if you want to zoom in really really close
+ Janusk option removed
+ Removed some of the improvements that are no longer relevant (will try to find some new use for them later - left the assets in there for modders)
+ Fixed strange noises quest, player loses HP permanently instead of essence if they choose to get their mega powerful unit.
Plan to release this week for the beta testers.
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June 16, 2011 12:34:45 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

awwwww yeeaaah.

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June 16, 2011 1:16:29 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Heavenfall,
awwwww yeeaaah.

This response almost made me spit my coffee on my monitor.  

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June 16, 2011 1:23:23 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

heavenfall, when are you going to start cranking out "unofficial" beta patches?  with your elite modding skillz, you should be able to fix a few beta bugs for us right?

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June 16, 2011 1:32:22 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Simultaneous combat would probably do well to counteract my Berserker Steamroller tactic.

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June 16, 2011 1:33:45 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Trojasmic,
heavenfall, when are you going to start cranking out "unofficial" beta patches?  with your elite modding skillz, you should be able to fix a few beta bugs for us right?

When the bugs are on a level I can fix. For example in 1.2b, there were hardcoded problems with population handling I couldn't fix. Since Derek Paxton joined ze team, xml bugs have been weeded out to almost none.

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June 16, 2011 2:49:11 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Have the wolf quest bug and rampant population cost bug been addressed in this patch?

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June 16, 2011 3:07:09 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Plan to release this week for the beta testers

I think that that's today or tomorrow..........

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June 16, 2011 3:26:52 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I would like to see an occassional sovereign that uses magic in tactical battles.

So far, I have not encountered an AI soveriegn using magic in tactical battles in 1.2x.

I would also like to see the morale effect added, as was alluded to in an earlier post. Perhaps this would only affect units if they were attacked on opposite flanks (sides of the tile) I.e. Attack a unit from the front and rear on the same turn and the rear attack either triggers a morale check or the rear attack does not happen simultaneously. This increase the importance of manuevering your units - now its just a headfirst charge.

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June 16, 2011 4:14:23 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Fixing that citizen cost bug has been a huge pain in the rear.

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June 16, 2011 4:46:43 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I know I sound like a broken record, but I really don't understand why you're persisting with the citizen system. Sure, it's great to limit the number of buildings by a settlement's population, but citizens seem like a massively complicated way of going about it. I spoke about this more here.

http://forums.elementalgame.com/409198

I've really tried to read the explanations for the system, but none of them really ring true to me. The whole "people get harder to find as you hire more" thing sounds like self-justification for a highly complex way of making citizens relevant. I'm not saying population should have no meaning, but surely just limitting the number of studies/workshops to a given amount at each settlement level would be much easier to balance, represent the same thing, and spare us from checking back on our towns every 5 turns to see if they had enough citizens for the 15th study.

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June 16, 2011 4:54:31 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

It's good analysis for FE.  But WOM has the citizen system. It's not going away.   I like it, but agreed it needs to be better balanced.

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June 16, 2011 4:54:37 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

+ Began work to make tactical combat occur simultaneously with the attacker getting a slight advantage (still more to do)

This sounds good! Um, what is this?

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June 16, 2011 5:21:36 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Frogboy,
Fixing that citizen cost bug has been a huge pain in the rear.

I was wondering if some of the building costs were calculated on a world-wide basis rather than just a empire-wide basis. Looks like there were calcs in there that shouldn't have been - especially as different games seemed to have different cost factors. In my games it was 5x for the secondary level buildings. Actually, come to think about it, there were 5 factions in the games I've played.

Has it been fixed though? Or is it still being worked on?

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June 16, 2011 6:03:49 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

+ Began work to make tactical combat occur simultaneously with the attacker getting a slight advantage (still more to do)

I still think better balance would make this unnecessary and probably needs to happen anyway. Even having units one tech level higher is like a 4x force multiplier, which makes military tech the only really thing that matters, reduces troop design options, and many other small things... 

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June 16, 2011 6:54:58 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting DsRaider,

+ Began work to make tactical combat occur simultaneously with the attacker getting a slight advantage (still more to do)

I still think better balance would make this unnecessary and probably needs to happen anyway. Even having units one tech level higher is like a 4x force multiplier, which makes military tech the only really thing that matters, reduces troop design options, and many other small things... 

 

Simultaneous combat doesn't solve the great variance between tiers of weapons/armor issue. what it does solve is the issue of two even armies fighting and one getting absolutely crushed. How many times have you lured the AI into using all of its AP to move adjacent to your unit so you could attack and wipe out most of that unit? If i kill 2-3 of the 4 people in a squad, that squad is nearly combat ineffective. This change will force the attacker to take some losses making combat feel more realistic.

 

While I do agree, the increments in weapon and armor techs should be more gradual, that is another entirely different issue. Even with good weapon/armor incrementing, you could still have a unit get wiped out (or nearly wiped out) at even tech.

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June 16, 2011 10:55:57 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Except it all is caused by poor balance, and adjusting stats would fix it all. While yes simultaneous combat helps the AI and works around the glass cannon problem, it does so by removing complexity and strategy to make up for dumb AI and poor balance. With simultaneous combat why would I ever bother do tactical combat, except to spam magic. Tactical combat has taken a large step closer to becoming pointless window dressing that lacks any strategy or meaning whatsoever, but ya the AI has less work to do now. 

If you look at my Tactical Rebalance mod you will see all the issues that can be fixed by a simple balance fix, and how tactical combat and unit design can be made fun, strategic, deep and meaningful. I am aware it is for 1.2, but the same could be done for 1.3.

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June 17, 2011 2:48:24 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting DsRaider,
With simultaneous combat why would I ever bother do tactical combat, except to spam magic. Tactical combat has taken a large step closer to becoming pointless window dressing that lacks any strategy or meaning whatsoever, but ya the AI has less work to do now. 

Simultaneous combat doesn't remove the need for maneuvering. Just because units strike back doesn't mean it isn't important to strike with the right unit at the right time. If I have three units and the enemy only one, I will suffer less wounds myself if I can rotate the attacking unit. In a combat with equal units on both sides, the one who maneuvers best wins. Typically that's the one who's been able to concentrate hits best on individual enemy units.

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June 17, 2011 9:24:13 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting DsRaider,
Except it all is caused by poor balance, and adjusting stats would fix it all. While yes simultaneous combat helps the AI and works around the glass cannon problem, it does so by removing complexity and strategy to make up for dumb AI and poor balance. With simultaneous combat why would I ever bother do tactical combat, except to spam magic. Tactical combat has taken a large step closer to becoming pointless window dressing that lacks any strategy or meaning whatsoever, but ya the AI has less work to do now. 

If you look at my Tactical Rebalance mod you will see all the issues that can be fixed by a simple balance fix, and how tactical combat and unit design can be made fun, strategic, deep and meaningful. I am aware it is for 1.2, but the same could be done for 1.3.

Simultaneous combat is a must in TC. Why would you not want it. Also I fail to see how simultaneous combat would remove complexity and strategy in TC. If anything it would enhance it.

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June 17, 2011 9:51:17 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Wondering if using something like a Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup/Nethack model for weapons/armor would work

 

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June 17, 2011 10:19:48 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Bellack,

Quoting DsRaider, reply 16Except it all is caused by poor balance, and adjusting stats would fix it all. While yes simultaneous combat helps the AI and works around the glass cannon problem, it does so by removing complexity and strategy to make up for dumb AI and poor balance. With simultaneous combat why would I ever bother do tactical combat, except to spam magic. Tactical combat has taken a large step closer to becoming pointless window dressing that lacks any strategy or meaning whatsoever, but ya the AI has less work to do now. 

If you look at my Tactical Rebalance mod you will see all the issues that can be fixed by a simple balance fix, and how tactical combat and unit design can be made fun, strategic, deep and meaningful. I am aware it is for 1.2, but the same could be done for 1.3.


Simultaneous combat is a must in TC. Why would you not want it. Also I fail to see how simultaneous combat would remove complexity and strategy in TC. If anything it would enhance it.

 

I agree. Not only is Simultaneous combat more realistic, it certainly doesn't remove complexity but in a way adds more. If you are no longer guaranteed to be safe from combat, better decisions will have to be made by the player.

 

Frogboy, Derek. is TC in FE going to be simultaneous if it works in WOM?

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June 17, 2011 10:47:09 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

They've mentioned that combat in FE is to be based on initiative.

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June 17, 2011 10:54:47 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

 

Quoting jecjackal,
I agree. Not only is Simultaneous combat more realistic, it certainly doesn't remove complexity but in a way adds more. If you are no longer guaranteed to be safe from combat, better decisions will have to be made by the player.

You mean because smart unit placement and thus first strike isn't as important your no longer safe from bad AI in combat? How does that allow better decisions? I mean what options are players given in tactical combat? 

Let's look at usual tactical combat:

1. Build units with equipment that boosts armor and damage the most.

2. Enter Combat, and position weak units(Escorted) behind tanks.

3. Position your units so the enemies run to you so you can squish them because of bad tactical AI which always gives you first strike and bad unit design.

This shows us three main problems. Firstly the tactical AI is horrible, secondly units are glass cannons, and lastly the current equipment balance has only 1 correct path and is extremely unforgiving if you don't maximize damage and armor using as high tech gear as possible. 

 

Let's look at it with Simultanous Strike:

1. Build units with equipment that boosts armor and damage the most.

2. Enter Combat, and position weak units behind tanks.

3. Let the enemies run to you so can trade simultaneous blows where bad unit design will allow you to win.

While Simultaneous combat helps with first strike it certainly doesn't make combat deeper or more enjoyable. The AI will still rush you except the penalties for dumb AI decisions will be less. It simply negates one way players were using strategy to beat the AI. This change won't cause any new strategies to form, it simply makes positioning less important. I mean sure it helps the AI but you now what else does.. autocalcing every combat. This is simply a step closer to making combat purely a exercise in math where the larger army always wins.

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June 17, 2011 11:31:15 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

DsRaider is right on the money with this. Simultaneous combat is not a solution - it is just a hack-fix. The real problem is, as he mentions, the AI movement positioning, targeting and weapon tech imbalance. This step takes the tactics out of tactical battles and makes them all but pointless.

+1 to you DsRaider.

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June 17, 2011 11:48:56 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

There are three issues with combat. You are completely overlooking one of them.

1. Equipment Tiers- This is the issue we are all aware of. Each time you increase a level of weapons or armor (or other equipment) you gain a HUGE amount of power. For example, going from the spear (9 attack) to the warstaff (15 attack) is a big difference especially when armor only increases by 1 per location. Dsraider is completely correctly when he asserts that this is an issue.

2. Poor AI; Currently the AI generally charges ahead and will try to kill the weakest member even if it gives up attacks on other good targets. Again Dsraider is correct in stating that it needs improvement or players will do much better than expected in TC. However this isn't the only issue.

3. Retaliation: Currently, most units are completely wiped out after being attacked once. Under the current system, there is no counterattack. This rewards players for putting most if not all of their unit resources into attack. Why should i equip armor if I can never be attacked? Only archers would give a reason for armor in the current system. Otherwize, glass cannons rule the day. If I can give a soldier 40 attack from a lord hammer and no amount of armor will stop a One hit kill, then that unit can attack with impunity. Simultaneous combat solves this issue very well.

 

Fixing the AI does not solve the glass cannon issue.

Fixing the equipment tiers partially solves the glass cannon issue.

Simultaneous combat mostly solves the glass cannon issue.

 

I can't explain it better than that. Maybe Frogboy will allow modders to turn TC back to the way it was for you power gaming folks. Personally I've always preferred more realistic combat.

 

Anyways, Good luck Frogboyy and SD. Hope the patch comes out today

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June 17, 2011 12:17:16 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting jecjackal,
There are three issues with combat. You are completely overlooking one of them.

1. Equipment Tiers- This is the issue we are all aware of. Each time you increase a level of weapons or armor (or other equipment) you gain a HUGE amount of power. For example, going from the spear (9 attack) to the warstaff (15 attack) is a big difference especially when armor only increases by 1 per location. Dsraider is completely correctly when he asserts that this is an issue.

2. Poor AI; Currently the AI generally charges ahead and will try to kill the weakest member even if it gives up attacks on other good targets. Again Dsraider is correct in stating that it needs improvement or players will do much better than expected in TC. However this isn't the only issue.

3. Retaliation: Currently, most units are completely wiped out after being attacked once. Under the current system, there is no counterattack. This rewards players for putting most if not all of their unit resources into attack. Why should i equip armor if I can never be attacked? Only archers would give a reason for armor in the current system. Otherwize, glass cannons rule the day. If I can give a soldier 40 attack from a lord hammer and no amount of armor will stop a One hit kill, then that unit can attack with impunity. Simultaneous combat solves this issue very well.

 

Fixing the AI does not solve the glass cannon issue.

Fixing the equipment tiers partially solves the glass cannon issue.

Simultaneous combat mostly solves the glass cannon issue.

 

I can't explain it better than that. Maybe Frogboy will allow modders to turn TC back to the way it was for you power gaming folks. Personally I've always preferred more realistic combat.

 

Anyways, Good luck Frogboyy and SD. Hope the patch comes out today

This.

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