Fahrenheit 9/11

… the movie – 2004 – By Michael Moore

By on May 4, 2011 6:44:57 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums External Link

BoobzTwo

Join Date 02/2004
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I must confess that I actually thought I hated this man and everything he was about until I started experiencing an overload of inaccurate and fictitious information the USG keeps pounding out and calling it the truth … so I decided to try an independent review of what I thought I knew and didn’t really. So I never watched or read anything Moore was involved with but I was more than willing to tell you how screwed up he was. So I rented the movie from Netflix and watched it … and I was amazed.

I have watched it twice now and I cannot find one shred of much information that is not factual or accurate. Beyond some idiosyncrasies in his sense of humor (they are funny); he presents very valid arguments and backs them up with documentation and interviews. He brings to light many of the things I have discovered in my own research into deceit, terrorism and the USG.

When I was a liberal (before I knew better) the only accurate information had to come from another liberal else it was a lie??? Later when I made my second mistake and became a conservative I learned the error of my ways … the truth could only be had from like ilk … so imagine my confusion when I called the neolibs and neocons for what they are and went independent. Suddenly, I have no source of valid information at all now (seemingly hehehe). I have had no success at all trying to walk the moderate tightrope between all the sharks without one side or the other dragging me down, go figure.

As far as Democrats/Republicans are concerned, their only care about the independent majority is how many they can acquire each election. But no matter which side is the best recruiter or who gets most independent votes … matters that concern the moderates will largely be ignored or sidelined and the neo-politicians will go their own course virtually unrestricted and completely unaccountable.

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May 4, 2011 9:16:14 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Is you being serious Boobztwo or is this a foray into satire? Moore starts with about 10% reality and ends up with 90% Twilight Zone.

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May 5, 2011 8:35:08 AM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Amazing review Anthony ... I take it you didn't like the movie when you watched it, oh well such is life. I was unable to determine what it was that you found so inappropriate and farfetched, but I guess that wasn't your intention at all, oh my. Let me know if you actually want to discuss the movie though.

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May 5, 2011 12:13:49 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Quoting BoobzTwo,
Amazing review Anthony ... I take it you didn't like the movie when you watched it, oh well such is life. I was unable to determine what it was that you found so inappropriate and farfetched, but I guess that wasn't your intention at all, oh my. Let me know if you actually want to discuss the movie though.

Typical response. Rather than asking what Anthony thought was 90% twilight zone, which would have started an interesting (although outdated) debate, you instead start with your usual "oh my" antics. How could you possibly determine what he found inappropriate and far fetched when he never gave details as to why he said what he said and even worse you didn't even bother asking him either. Then you end it with your typical "let me know when you want to really debate" response as if you ever are serious about debating.

None the less I will give you my opinion on this. I saw parts of the movie, I found it rather boring to be honest. Although he may have had some good "questions" it was his approach and delivery which made this movie suck and also hard to take serious. His intentions were noble but very hypocritical as well. When I see him do the opposite of "do as I say not as I do", then maybe I can take him serious. In the mean time, he is simply another hypocrite who ignores his own reflexion.

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May 5, 2011 2:49:20 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Quoting CharlesCS,
Rather than asking what Anthony thought was 90% twilight zone, which would have started an interesting (although outdated) debate, you instead start with your usual "oh my" antics. How could you possibly determine what he found inappropriate and far fetched when he never gave details as to why he said what he said and even worse you didn't even bother asking him either.
Charles, you forgot to tell me I was supposed to ask that question ... how am I to know what pleases you if you don't? Humm let’s see … he could have told me I suppose, but that concept is apparently outside your scope of understanding. I will try to be more clairvoyant in the future, hehehe.

Quoting CharlesCS,
When I see him do the opposite of "do as I say not as I do", then maybe I can take him serious.
I see you do not like Moore either, is ok, we will both live. I do not particularly like the person … so I was asking for a movie review or at least some meaningful conversation. How many people do you actually know that live by the creed “do the opposite of do as I say, not as I do"? Is this silly or what … oh yea, thanks for the review. How much of your stuff are you willing to give away to prove something to an idiot ... just what I thought, me too!

 

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May 6, 2011 1:44:28 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

You remind me of Mummbles.... an old forum "friend" of mine.

 

I actually never watched the film, but have found problems with Moore's "facts" and methods of screenplay to incite a predisposed opinion out of the audience.

 

 

 

EDIT:  Have you seen "Waiting on Superman"  That movie is an interesting take on the current public school problems, and I prefer that screenplay over Moore's.

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May 6, 2011 2:07:38 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Recommend reading up on Edward Bernays and his book Propaganda. He is considered to be the father of modern day flock herding, aka democratic propaganda. Wiki link (for a start): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Bernays.

 

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May 6, 2011 2:41:18 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

It's not so much that Moore is a lying sack of shit spewing falsehoods, he's just a really good spin doctor.  He pulls stuff out of his ass, like the Bin Laden family being allowed to leave the country after 9/11.  What he leaves out is that they were only allowed to leave after a good corn-holing by the FBI, and that they left after the flight restriction was lifted.  Oh, right, he said they weren't questioned...

 

Okay, I got me there, he's both?

 

Moore is like Gore, he has a predetermined viewpoint based on some idiot he thought was smart explaining the way something happened(without having a clue themselves) and twists, ignores, and fabricates his way into making it reality.  With Gore, it's that the industrial era is a plague on this earth, and be damned the realities of a few hundred thousand years of ice ages for an actual history.  With Moore. it's that capitalism is evil and utopian socialism actually exists.  It's how he can go to Cuba, see the party hospital in the capital, and say look how great things are here!  Sure, the rooms have holes and they can't even get aspirin in half the country, but this hospital where Castro goes is fucking awesome!

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May 6, 2011 2:46:59 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Michael Moore has near zero credibility.  He is a liberal version of Glenn Beck with "documentaries" instead of a chalkboard.  Even a broken clock has the right time twice a day.  To cite another post here, "Figures don't lie but liars always use figures.".

It's interesting that as I did a Google search for the link I am going to give here that all the results at the top of the search --for pages--dated back to 2007 and 2009...and all of them(with the exception of the "extreme deniers conspiracy posts") were from sources advocating drastic and immediate action to reduce human carbon emissions--which all of those articles listed cited as "the" reason for climate change and "the" need for immediate and drastic action...regardless of the short term damage to global and national economies and to particular people groups. Those almost unanimous search results line right up with the politically correct views of those hawking this effort to stop man from destroying the planet.

I don't doubt climate change is happening--nor do I doubt that human activity has had a great role in the speed and degree of it occurring.  What this statement doesn't address (and neither do the statements of the  "stop all man-made CO2 emissions" activists')--is whether or not there is anything significant we can do, how much of it can be affected by man and what amount of human resources need to be expended to do so.

So in this Google search, all the views were, "It's man's fault and we must now do everything humanly possible" views (sprinkled with a few  "It's a hoax" views).  What was missing was an actual scientific estimate and measure of exactly what can be done.  Suggested measures to control climate change have included restricting farming and livestock activities, controlling food production and distribution, population control, de-industrialization, conversions of entire economies--all to "go green".

Now imagine if I burst into your house and told you a horror story about  how bad things were going to happen but then went on to explain a "nightmare beyond imagination" was coming, showed little qualified and measurable degrees of what exactly "nightmare" meant and then went on to say, "To stop it, I need money from you right now!".  When I answered, "How much?" your response would be, "How much do you have?".

My next questions would be, "Wait...what do you need?  How will my money actually help?  What do you mean by "nightmare"?  I would not just "hand you my checkbook".

This is what many advocate--a global level of authority that can dictate to any nation exactly what economic commitments and sacrifices they will be required to make--regardless of the impact on their nation.  They also demand a central authority that can decide what power generation and industrial activities will be allowed to be started by emerging nations and third world economies as well as determining what existing industrial and power production can continue in developed nations.

That's a lot to ask for and only justify it with, "It's really bad and it's going to get worse and you have to give us everything and we'll try to figure it out as we go.".

So in all those search results only articles advocating "drastic and immediate actions" were displayed.  No real measure of exactly how much of the problem is genuinely man-made and absolutely no measure at all of what affect various man-made actions would have on changing things.  Just the urgent cry, "The sky is falling now!".

So here is the one report I have seen that even begins to try to really pinpoint what man might be able to do.  It doesn't advocate a particular action or inaction--it does what science should and simply presents findings.  Ironically, it's hard to find such things now even with Goggle since climate change activism has gone from being a mere viewpoint to passionately defended meme.:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/01/110128095044.htm

http://earthweb.ess.washington.edu/roe/GerardWeb/Publications_files/ArmourRoe_committed.pdf

I am all for human effort that has a good chance of improving things in a significant way.  I am not all for indiscriminate, unmeasured responses at "any cost".  It isn't uncaring about the environment or denying climate change to want this.  It's a rational way to assess what can be done.

The biased  hype is the problem now.  The willingness of many (including some scientists)  to oversell or even misrepresent facts and science because they are "so sure" they are right--based on  the "fact" that they are "so sure".

This is Missouri--show me.

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May 6, 2011 2:55:16 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Agree, Sinperium.

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May 6, 2011 2:56:57 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

"Wall-of-Text" thanks you

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May 6, 2011 3:42:54 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I'll put this as bluntly as I can. In 1989 my country's government shot it's people in the street and blamed it on terrorists that no one saw, no one found and no one heard from again. In 1991, intellectuals were protesting against the temporary government trying to become a new dictatorship. They were branded as Nazi sympathizers by the government and clubbed to death by miners, in the streets under the cheering of the ignorant crowd. The president then thanked the miners for the massacre.

My point. Never trust your government, because it's made up mostly of people you didn't put there, whom you don't know, whom you can't control, who have their own interests, who don't answer to you and have no idea, or care, who you even are.  

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May 6, 2011 4:05:04 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

If you want a list of factual errors in Fahrenheit 9/11, you need only google. I'll provide you with the first result here.

http://www.davekopel.org/terror/59Deceits.pdf 

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May 6, 2011 4:15:25 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

People who don't answer to you and have no idea, or care, who you even are.

That's the problems with those who are so sure they are right that any means is acceptable to get their way.  When someone says, "We must organize and force people.." That's a sign something is not balanced.

I don't give anyone real trust unless they earn it.  Talk is cheap.

People who angrily demand your trust are not your friends.

Michael Moore has parleyed his somewhat just issues with GM and the success of his first film into a political business where he can make money pointing fingers in ways he knows will be supported by the people who finance him.

Suddenly he's an expert on climate, the economy and politics--and gets paid handsomely for it too.

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May 6, 2011 9:16:25 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

nice read of a wall o' text Sin

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May 6, 2011 10:02:15 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Michael Moore is full of shit.

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May 6, 2011 10:49:14 AM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Quoting BoobzTwo,
I see you do not like Moore either, is ok, we will both live. I do not particularly like the person … so I was asking for a movie review or at least some meaningful conversation. How many people do you actually know that live by the creed “do the opposite of do as I say, not as I do"? Is this silly or what … oh yea, thanks for the review. How much of your stuff are you willing to give away to prove something to an idiot ... just what I thought, me too!

My like or dislike of Moore is not the issue here, but what is more confusing is why you ask about a movie review and when given you talk as if one was not given. perhaps you didn't notice that Moore was actually the movie. The movie was based on his personal opinions, conspiracies and abilities to twist the facts in his favor to get people like you to fall for his crap. To have an opinion on this movie is to have an opinion about Moore so for you to complain about a lack of review on this movie is rather stupid to say the least. You have a weird concept of what a "meaningful conversation" since you never like what anyone says but then I now understand more clearly why after reading your "Why do you post to JU" article. I will express that understanding over there so as to avoid hearing your "stay on topic" cry.

BTW, you need to learn to let people respond to your questions before giving your "just what I thought, me too!" response since you can't seethe persons face to give such an answer.

Let's see you handle the above comments. I look forward to you fighting off all the comments above.

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May 6, 2011 11:43:52 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I clicked on this thread thinking it was about Ray Bradbury's book Fahrenheit 451. I'm not sure how I confused "9/11" with "451" (maybe the OP had a typo?), but now I find it's about that idiot Michael Moore's equally idiotic movie.

Que sad face.

I am now of the opinion that BoobzTwo is an idiot as well.

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May 6, 2011 11:49:16 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I don't think BoobzTwo is an idiot, a lot of people fall for propaganda.  People believe what they want to believe and when underhanded people reinforce those with falsehoods,  pseudo-facts, and spins the believers rarely look for the truth.  It's human nature. 

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May 6, 2011 11:57:56 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

it's called Blind Ignorance Xia

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May 6, 2011 12:06:43 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

    America has become a pro corporate, slightly fascist government. Anyone who thinks we went into  Afghanistan or Iraq to "bring the fight to them" is a fool. btw ..."if you don't love it leave it" comments that will surely follow only prove my point.

   MM whether you agree with him or not, is for the working man, unlike the party that got us into two wars, then made it illegal to photograph our dead soldiers coffins as they came off the planes when they landed home. 17 of the 21 hijackers were from Saudi Arabia, yet that country got away without even a question. These are facts,,,,,look them up.

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May 6, 2011 12:32:15 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

SivCorp – I agree about Moors methods and personal idiosyncrasies and all because well it took me 7 years before I could override my unjustified dislike  of the man himself and actually watch it. I was a typical neocon and just never realized it … because I was duly brainwashed by the powers that be ... hook, line and sinker. The movie “Waiting on Superman” is something (topic) of great interest to me, but there are many free references such as “The Deliberate Dumbing down of America”. How did we ever survive without YouTube and such not? I would love to have this discussion, but it should be on a specific post, humm.

Psychoak – I am amazed at the ease some have of presenting what ails America along political lines. It seems that you believe only one side of the aisle is capable of honesty and straightforwardness … I do not think there is any validity in that. Surely you are not implying that the neocons and their supporters are above the political fray and don’t thrive from “a predetermined viewpoint based on some idiot he they thought was smart explaining the way something happened (without having a clue themselves) and twists, ignores, and fabricates his their way into making it reality.” Come on now … fair is fair and everyone should claim their share of lies and deceit. As far as Cuba, Gore and GW are concerned, I would be glad to talk about them … just not under a review for this movie.

Sinperium – Credibility is a relative term and is normally assigned by people with opposing views, go figure. I agree with most of your conclusions on GW, just not sure how it ended up here is all? The last time I looked at Wikipedia, they still had references to the demise of the Polar Bear, strange but true. We get into this kind of trouble because the people are willing to accept the suppositions we are presented with … instead of asking why? It seems to me that our whole country is governed by talking points veritably devoid of common sense.

Unacomn – Nice reply … right on. I have not found but a few who are willing to actually discuss this. I have found a bunch of self-professed experts who like to use talking points to justify, well everything. Logic and common sense are just not invited to the discussion, go figure.

Heavenfall – I can produce like lists for most government officials and the media, but to what point. Surely you are not implying that Bush and Co. have not straight out lied to the American people are you?  So there are factual errors huh … what about all the factual lies the USG has promoted? Just a thought mind you. Wonder what a Google search would produce if it were to ask it for a list of factual errors in the USG rendition of events.

Sinperium – At what point does a director/participant in a movie film require them to become experts first or ever for that matter? Personally, politicians and the media outlets are not valid source of expertise IMO and I would not recommend them to anyone looking for facts. That is why I am now looking for myself … the truth.

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May 6, 2011 12:53:43 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

CharlesCS – No problem here … have a nice day.

Whiskey144 - Fahrenheit 451 would be an excellent movie to review, humm. We all have opinions though, don’t we?

Lord Xia / EternalRequiem – It is astounding that only the idiots on the other side are propagandized while the right side revels in the truth … nothing but the truth, amazing insight.

Wbino – It just seems to me that although everyone claims to have all the facts … most are reluctant and unwilling to talk about them preferring to call any who disagree uninformed and properly propagandized idiots … end of their discussion skills, amazing but true, go figure.

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May 6, 2011 12:59:24 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

As I have wrote before, when a politician walks on his hands to the mic and talks out of his ass I might believe it but as it stands it's nothing but shit coming out of there mouth. Politicians should be hooked up to a lie detector that shows on a big screen behind them. No more secret meetings and back room deals, everything is public record. Until that day comes to me every politician by there nature is an all out thief and lier. Puppets to the 1% that own 99% of the wealth.

I like Michel Moores docs but I also take them with a grain of salt. It's up to the viewer to verify the facts but that can be hard sometimes when the very people being investigated have the power to greatly distort the facts or out write lie. If I had to pick between who I trusted more from George W Bush and Michel Moore, Moore would win hands down.

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May 6, 2011 1:17:36 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Quoting wbino,
America has become a pro corporate, slightly fascist government. Anyone who thinks we went into Afghanistan or Iraq to "bring the fight to them" is a fool. btw ..."if you don't love it leave it" comments that will surely follow only prove my point.

How come is it that people like you, and BoozToo, always throw in a "if you don't like it" comment in your replies? Why do you even bother commenting if you know you gonna get a reply back but you obviously don't want to be challenged? I will never understand why people like you come to places like this and even comment. Just makes no sense at all.

 

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May 6, 2011 1:26:16 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting wbino,
MM whether you agree with him or not, is for the working man, unlike the party that got us into two wars, then made it illegal to photograph our dead soldiers coffins as they came off the planes when they landed home. 17 of the 21 hijackers were from Saudi Arabia, yet that country got away without even a question. These are facts,,,,,look them up.

Have you considered the possibility that the illegality to photograph dead soldiers' coffins is because unscrupulous individuals used said photographs for slanderous or libelous purposes? Perhaps it's illegal to photograph said coffins because it causes undue distress to the families of said deceased soldiers'?

Quoting BoobzTwo,
Whiskey144 - Fahrenheit 451 would be an excellent movie to review, humm. We all have opinions though, don’t we?

You're more of a naffing idiot than I thought. Fahrenheit 451 is NOT a movie you twit, it's a naffing book!

Quoting myfist0,
I like Michel Moores docs but I also take them with a grain of salt. It's up to the viewer to verify the facts but that can be hard sometimes when the very people being investigated have the power to greatly distort the facts or out write lie. If I had to pick between who I trusted more from George W Bush and Michel Moore, Moore would win hands down.

I'd like to point out that I wouldn't trust Michael Moore to do anything without supervision, because he's a bloody spin-doctor. I'd trust Bush more than him, because Bush actually had to get down and do the naffing work, and Moore's an outsider who's saying "teh government sux and iz liars", when he's got very little actual proof.

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