The Grand Demandobot AI Thread

By on January 27, 2011 2:50:48 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Vallu751

Join Date 05/2003
+14

We are the Demandobots   http://forums.elementalgame.com/404518/page/1/#2876891

It is our nature to relentlessly demand AI improvements.

Our programming has the following rules:

1. We demand specific improvements. Those making vague demands are not true demandobots! Elaborate to prove your worth!

2. We provide savegames by dropbox or similar technology to offer others a chance to share in the mockery of the puny AI's feeble attempts at gameplay. (And to help the devs)

3. We separate issues and requests into "Community confirmed", "Needs confirmation" and "Too vague, please elaborate".

4. Our programming is quite moddable, please make improvement suggestions if you feel like it.

And finally, Rule zero: We cheer AI improvements mightily.

 

STRATEGIC AI

Top priority:

Champion AI concidered lacking because of the following two issues.

HeavenFall, Vandenburg, Lord Xia, nitey47, AlLanMandragoran: AI won't equip new items. If they hire champions, they will never have better equipment than what they start with.

  • Apparently somewhat improved with 1.19n?

Stuie, Lord Xia: AI does not take stat upgrades at level-up http://forums.elementalgame.com/404479

AlLanMandragoran: AI gets "pop-locked" and doesn't do anything for many turns. http://forums.elementalgame.com/407995

Community confirmed:

AlLanMandragoran: Most recent strategic AI analysis thread: http://forums.elementalgame.com/407995

AlLanMandragoran: AI leaves settlements undefended. Also, has unused pioneers and is building more in the same location. http://forums.elementalgame.com/408391

AlLanMandragoran: AI building cities on top of resources. http://forums.elementalgame.com/408401

Vandenburg, nitey: Rushing military (techs) too powerful http://forums.elementalgame.com/403879/page/9/#2877482

Lord Xia: AI could group better, instead of two groups of 4 units coming after a city, and both failing, one group of 8 would have succeeded

Sethai: Teleport allows human players to concentrate their forces better than an AI. AI doesn't build groups or archers. their huge armies of individuals are destroyed by area spells. http://forums.elementalgame.com/407978/page/1/#2927950

Yosarian2:  AI will consistantly declare war on me, and then completly ignore me and do nothing for dozens of turns. The AI just needs to learn to properly launch a single large attack on nearby cities it's at war with. http://forums.elementalgame.com/407978/get;2928071

Yosarian2: I often conquer cities that have the wrong buildings (for example, it'll build the buildings that give a % bonus to metal production in cities that have no metal production.) http://forums.elementalgame.com/407978/get;2928071

impinc, Tydorius: Poor maneuvering. AI always moves units in the same turn order every time.  AI never uses the pass turn to just stand still, even if using its turns moves it backwards. http://forums.elementalgame.com/404507

  • Partial fix suggestion by Tydorius: Allow units to move through other units as long as the other side is clear.

HeavenFall, Lord Xia: AI uses mounts very, very rarely

 

TheProgress, kaitro AI does not defend improvement tiles.: The AI continues to rebuild improvements whilst enemies are right next to the improvement tile. http://forums.elementalgame.com/404551

TheProgress: The AI retreats (on the strategic map) when it has superiority in numbers and strength. Link to saves: http://filebin.ca/kpaeyt/Saves.zip

  • Related to: TheProgress: strategic AI commands an empire that has a power rating 5x higher than that of my own - they declare war on me - 100 turns later, I have yet to even see a single attack made by them.

Blackmantle_: AI gives obscene amounts of Gildar for diplomatic capital during diplomatic negotiations (treaties part of the negotation-table) while giving the diplomatic capital away for cheap when bartering for goods. The richer the AI is, the worse the bug

HeavenFall, Sythion: AI attacks a city with 400 combat rating worth of units in, with an army that has 80 combat rating. AI  tactics about when and where to fight are poor.

Blackmantle_, Sythion: AI seems to undervalue hiring heroes. Ridiculous AI may have thousands of gildar, but there are still heroes available in AI territory or just near it. AI needs to focus on champions early game, since they are much easier to purchase and buff up (only need gold)

nitey47, vallu751: Combat rating needs improvement. Is defensive armor given enough weight? Are magical effects values? Spellcasters?

  • Example: force of 5 spiders with combat rating 39 attacked with three lower end units (Boar spear, some padded armor) combat rating 29. Overwhelming victory. 
  • Another game, 5 spiders vs sovereign and 4 other units. Sov stack had all values - especially defense - higher, but combat ratings were the same. Spiders were barely able to scratch.

nitey47, HeavenFall: AI creates too many monuments. 8 or 9 in a city, each taking 10 pop.

nitey47: AI build options could be better in general. Currently too many monuments and labor pits. Too few Studies and Schools.

Werewindlefr: AI does not build units with a shield and one handed weapon.

citywolfdreams: AI should keep low level heroes with fighting stacks, hanging out back to gain exp.

 

Needs confirmation:

EternalRequiem: AI doesn't cut down forests to make room for cities.

Vandenburg: AI doesn't phase out obsoleted units with better ones

Blackmantle_: AI gives more for a Hero on bartering than demanding for that same hero. Might be tied to recruit cost of the player as well as the AI and relations. So beeing a Bard with a high charisma might help to reproduce. The richer the AI is, the worse that bug

nitey: AI might do better against rushing if it researched an offensive spell right away

nitey: AI units should have better defense in the beginning, even normal peasants

Blackmantle_: AI doesn't seem able to keep watch of its heroes. They seem to die rather fast despite high difficulty HP bonuses

seanw3: I demand that the AI can logically research late game technologies (the ones that are infinite). I have not noticed a good use of this by the AI.

seanw3: I demand that the AI can cast spells. Even in 1.19 they seem to totally avoid magic.

seanw3: I demand that the AI can properly see that he is being beaten by my invincible armies and sign a peace treaty without demanding insane amounts of gold. Why is the winner supposed to pay for peace?

seanw3: I demand that the AI can raze a city if it is surrounded by too many units.

seanw3: I demand that the AI can ask me for help if it is losing a war and we are the same faction.

nitey47: AI does not use Imbue Hero, Arcane Weapon, Stone Skin, Regenerate or Heal on either their heroes or their sovereign. http://forums.elementalgame.com/404541/page/1/#2879022

nitey47: AI doesn't build archers after archery was moved up in tech tree.

seanw3: AI at a disadvantage at higher tech levels, doesn't seem to utilize them well

  • vallu751: Could this be related to the AI spending their materials in lower end stuff and creating a resource bottleneck? Or are they just not programmed to utilize the better stuff well?

Savoy3:  AI is not trying to trade with others to get for example metals. http://forums.elementalgame.com/408864

 

Too vague, please elaborate:

Vandenburg from demandobot thread: AI doesn't factor it in deciding for war (champion equipment or obsolete units? Both?)

 

TACTICAL AI

Community confirmed:

TheProgress, Sythion:  The tactical AI will focus all units on attacking a single enemy unit until the battle has ended regardless of how the enemy changes position or attacks. http://forums.elementalgame.com/404639

vallu751, Sythion: AI rushes to attack without considering who gets to strike first. Easy to exploit for a great advantage.

citywolfdreams: List of AI improvement suggestions in thread http://forums.elementalgame.com/405229

  • "Do we have more artillery?" - Ranged combat instead of charge if AI has better ranged strength
  • "What dangerous units does the enemy have and how can I best respond?" - Intelligent target picking
  • "Do I have regenerating creatures?" - Rotating units to take advantage of regen

 

NOTED IMPROVEMENTS

Fixes in 1.19:

nitey47: 1.19 beta: AI creating better units

Fixed by 1.19a that corrected a 1.19 problem with AI XML Tag usage:

Vandenburg, AlLanMandragoran: AI doesn't expand problem.

Trojasmic: How to beat 6 ridiculous AIs with saves and screenshots: http://forums.elementalgame.com/404770

Fixes in 1.19a:

AI: Fixed an issue with the sovereign not going out to pickup goodie huts.

Fixes in 1.19c:

Helsturm & others: 1.19b AI sovereign stationed near town, not inside. http://forums.elementalgame.com/405133

AlLanMandragoran: Faction AI XML tags for factions other than Umber.

Fixes in 1.19d:

Patch notes: AI suicidal tendencies reduced

 


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bbr91
Stuie_
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February 25, 2011 3:28:55 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Updated to most recent AlLanMandragoran thread and added suicidal sovereign 1.19d fix.

And I think I've forgotten to mention that sovereigns, spouses and champions aren't getting stat increases or new gear properly. It would be nice if someone could take a look at that. Pretty demand?

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February 25, 2011 11:47:28 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Yeah, I don't think AI Sovereigns, spouses and champions have ever got stat increases or new gear (or the ability to use stat booster items) in all of E:WOM up til now.  Definitely something that needs to be fixed as soon as feasible.

Best regards,
Steven.

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February 25, 2011 9:16:18 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Brad - Season 45 of a real 1.19d game. Capitar FP is 5 and 1 city. Something is definitely broke with this faction as they were killed by monsters in my test analysis. Good news: Pariden is currently highest in the game with 3 cities and 42 FP so whatever caused them to act silly (i.e. pop lock) in the test analysis obviously didn't recur here.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/19969679/Elemental/119d/45.EleSav

[Edit] Brad - around turn 75 or so I discovered Magnar. The spouse was chillin' in the capital with a battle axe. If you tweaked that, kudos!

Unfortunately for the AI my wife is Carielf, I mean Najaba, so I was able to dominate the spouse without risk of counter-attack. Here's my turn 81 save.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/19969679/Elemental/119d/81.EleSav

Bad news: Magnar AI was only churning out 6 attack 0 defense units. Carielf is cutting through their empire like a hot knife through butter. 

BTW, Capitar recovered from the pop lock. They now have 2 cities and FP of 45.

 

 

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March 4, 2011 9:25:34 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

1.19e strategic analysis here: http://forums.elementalgame.com/406036

Summary of Observations:

  • URGENT PROBLEMS?: None, yay! No dead factions and none of them are sitting there doing nothing.
  • Recommend giving sovereigns and spouses xp per turn or have them explore the world (being careful of course).
  • Cursory pass - spouses or sov's are still not being geared per gildar and tech levels. If the spouses are just going to camp the capitals (which is fine with me as a defensive unit) then please max gear them based on gildar and tech levels.
  • Honestly, the only concerning trend I noticed this go around was available champions that remained unhired.
  • This was the best test yet!

Brad - great work! For ridiculous difficulty please gear the sovereigns, spouses, and champions.

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March 5, 2011 12:23:16 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Naughty Brad! Season 57 of a real 1.19e ridiculous game and Resoln equipped their spouse with a battleaxe once I declared war (it also looks like they geared two pieces of armor). It's unfortunate for them that their other defender was a 6 attack 0 defense unit otherwise I would have lost my push for their capital. Keep that stuff comin'! The sovereign is MIA at the moment so they're not out of the game yet.

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March 5, 2011 2:00:29 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Brad - can you please take a peek at this season 96 1.19e game: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/19969679/Elemental/119e/96.EleSav. I have concerns with the pathing decisions one of their stacks is making.

I defeated Resoln and now I'm at war with Magnar. They are making some good units and have geared their sovereign a bit. I think there is a pathing issue with the nice stack they have south of capital2. They have a few champions and units in there, geared a bit too, but I think the stack is trying to maneuver to retake the capital from me. The problem is that Pariden's ZOC and the mountain range is blocking them. I'm wondering if the pathing AI decides the best route is through the Pariden tiles but can't because the tiles are in Pariden's ZOC. What the AI should do is circle back to the east and reinforce the other settlement that I'm eyeballing to the southeast of capital2 and then make a move to retake the capital.

Anyway, can you please look into this? If there is a problem fixing it might help improve the strategic AI. Thanks.

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March 5, 2011 11:49:35 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Brad - season 120 of 1.19e game here: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/19969679/Elemental/119e/120.EleSav

Note Magnar is about to die and per the save and screenshots, he has plenty of materials (although low on metal) to create some defensive units. His unit queue is sitting idle, however.  Also note he's building a school instead of something beneficial to survival.

Note the empty unit queue:

Note the plethora of techs (7 deep into Conquest), materials, (low metal though). He should be spamming some units with low metal requirements to defend his empire. Buh bye Magnar!

 

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March 6, 2011 3:43:04 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Brad - season 156 of 1.19e ridiculous game here: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/19969679/Elemental/119e/156.EleSav

Can you please take a look at Pariden's caravan next to Capital1? It's been sitting there for many seasons... it should have made a route to something by now.

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March 6, 2011 7:49:57 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Brad - Season 173 of 1.19e ridiculous game here: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/19969679/Elemental/119e/173.EleSav

Please take a peek southwest of Altar's city Siye. He has a couple of stacks nestled up against the mountain range between him and Yithril. They aren't at war but relations are hostile. The concerning thing is he declared war on me, I've taken one city as a result, and instead of his units moving up to engage my forces or even defend his Yithril perimeter they're camping a location that makes absolutely no sense.

The good news is he's making some decent units and semi-gearing his heroes. Thanks.

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March 11, 2011 7:42:17 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

1.19f analysis here: http://forums.elementalgame.com/406296

Summary of Observations:

  • URGENT PROBLEMS?: Pariden is creating pioneers but they aren't moving anywhere to create settlements. Gilden was in cryogenic stasis until sometime between season 36 and 48 (pop locked) and then recovered.
  • The "spouse on city but not in city" has reared its ugly head again - across several factions.
  • Recommend giving sovereigns and spouses xp per turn or have them explore the world (being careful of course).
  • Cursory pass - spouses or sov's are still not being geared per gildar and tech levels. If the spouses are just going to camp the capitals (which is fine with me as a defensive unit) then please max gear them based on gildar and tech levels.

Brad - please review Pariden's pioneer issues, Gilden's pop lock, and the "spouse on city but not in city" thing.. Those first two things seriously reduce the fun factor. For ridiculous difficulty please gear the sovereigns, spouses, and champions.  

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March 12, 2011 3:28:09 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Brad - save from from real 1.19f ridiculous game here: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/19969679/Elemental/119f/119f_74.EleSav.

It's season 74 and Tarth is sitting at 1 city and FP of 7. Bummer. 

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March 18, 2011 12:02:33 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Brad - problems with a couple of factions in 1.19g. Season 60 save here: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/19969679/Elemental/119g/119g_AITEST_60.EleSav

  • Capitar at 1 city with FP of 5 - pop locked, nothing in queues, etc.
  • Pariden at 1 city with FP 7 - pop locked, nothing in queues, etc.

Gilden is at 1 city with FP of 13 - looks like they're doing ok.

 

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April 1, 2011 10:22:58 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Brad - trying out a new game in 1.19j. Just took out Umber around season 25 and then I get the below message in season 30 that Capitar fell to monsters and ruffians. -1 to fun factor.

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April 5, 2011 9:08:46 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Brad - I have a new post about a suicidal sovereign in 1.19j. Please see here: http://forums.elementalgame.com/407308

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April 18, 2011 5:05:17 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Updated 1.19m Strategic AI analysis thread here: http://forums.elementalgame.com/407804

Summary of Observations:

  • URGENT PROBLEM: Good 'ol Carridus is being lazy again as noted in many prior analyses. He refused to found his capital until somewhere between turns 24 and 36. He then decided to sit on his butt until somewhere between turn 48 and 60. In addition, he has a number of goodie huts laying around. Epitome of lazy! I've seen this in real games with him...
  • URGENT PROBLEM: Magnar is refusing to build any new units beyond their initial peon level. I've seen this in real games too - something's wrong with the code regarding upgrading/building new units for this faction. Magnar flew over the cuckoo's nest.
  • Kraxis, and especially Pariden, are playing solid well-rounded games. Pariden could hire a few more champs but they honestly don't need them.
  • Looks like gearing spouses and sov's is better than prior builds - but still not using max tech/gildar to rock 'em out.
  • SOV's need to use items they find such as books and stuff, appears they don't.
  • Spouses and sov's should get some xp and level as well.

Brad/Derek - can we please nail out the serious gaps before 1.2 is published? Thank you.

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April 20, 2011 7:01:54 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I agree, it would be very welcome to have these gaps fixed before the full 1.2 release.

Best regards,
Steven.

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April 22, 2011 12:00:10 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

1.19n strategic AI analysis here: http://forums.elementalgame.com/407926

Summary of Observations:

  • URGENT PROBLEM: Brad, something is desperately wrong with Capitar's AI as also noted in the prior 1.19m analysis. Can you please fix this? He's completely pop locked. Fun factor -10 when an enemy faction refuses to play the game.
  • URGENT PROBLEM: Multiple spouses did not occupy their capitals and instead sat on top of them. Resoln's apparently was attacked and killed by wandering monsters. Kraxis' spouse continued to teabag her capital.
  • URGENT PROBLEM: Pioneers are being created by both Resoln and Tarth but are not pathing to create new settlements. Fun factor -3.
  • Umber and Magnar are playing solid well-rounded games.
  • Looks like gearing spouses and sov's is better than prior builds - but still not using max tech/gildar to rock 'em out.
  • SOV's need to use items they find such as books and stuff, appears they don't.
  • Spouses and sov's should get some xp and level as well.

Can you please plug the holes? Thank you.

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April 23, 2011 6:35:33 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I also noticed the AI will design and build more advanced units as the technology becomes available, but champions and the sovereign don't receive the best equipment.

However, my suggestion is that the AI should make use of strategic spells too because the game is pretty unbalanced when I can use Destroy Land to cut off or limit the AIs ability to maneuver and it can't. I want to see the AI raise a volcano on my city!

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April 23, 2011 4:28:32 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

1.19n Pop Lock Analysis here: http://forums.elementalgame.com/407995

Results:

  • Gilden, Capitar, & Kraxis all pop locked twice each over 10 games - 20% chance of that occurring for those factions
  • None of the other 6 factions (Pariden unknown since ran test as player Pariden) ever experienced a pop lock
  • None of the ten games ever had more than 1 faction at a time pop lock
  • Overall 7% chance of a faction pop locking across all 10 games and 9 factions

Since I don't know how Brad has the AI coded I'm unsure why this is occurring. There are definitely 3 factions with issues for this particular map, on this particular difficulty, and their particular starting locations. Hayelp Brad or Derek!

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April 26, 2011 2:59:19 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Added observations mentioned in this thread and My thoughts on the current AI in War of Magic.

Moved the pop-locking up to top priority with the AI gearing and levelling. Also mentioned that people are reporting improved gearing in the latest beta patches. I guess tactical combat should be in top priority as well, but I'll leave it as it is since they are currently working on it for 1.3.

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April 26, 2011 3:08:37 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Keep up the good work guys. I firmly believe this is the most important thread on the forum. (This is half intended to thank those involved & half to help keep the thread active)  I don't know if it's appropriate or not to give everyone hear a +1 karma so in spirit consider yourselves each having a bit more chi

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April 26, 2011 2:48:52 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I did a few more analysis of the pop locks in this thread since my initial earlier reply: http://forums.elementalgame.com/407995

Short story: all Kingdom Factions with the exception of Altar seem to have pop lock issues, some way more serious than others. Most of Empires seems ok. The starting location seems to have nothing to do with whether a faction pop locks - it seems to be in the AI code, especially for Kingdoms.

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April 26, 2011 4:49:51 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

again AlLanMandragoran thanks for the contributions your making in trying to pin stuff down for the Developers to work on and fix, you might just be helping them make the game a whole lot better in the long run.

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April 26, 2011 6:09:56 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting EternalRequiem,
again AlLanMandragoran thanks for the contributions your making in trying to pin stuff down for the Developers to work on and fix, you might just be helping them make the game a whole lot better in the long run.

You're welcome and thanks for the kind words.

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April 26, 2011 6:26:39 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Onya, Al!  Can we call you Al?

Best regards,
Steven.

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