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January 19, 2011 10:11:11 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Starcraft is a real time strategy game, and any AI has a big advantage in real time compared to turn based games because it can simultaneously command a vast number of objects. As a result you will never see AI's in turn based games ever being as effective. Elite Starcraft players are actually judged by how many 'clicks' they perform per second, this is precisely what it is all about, how quickly you can command your forces. None of this happens in turn based games.

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January 19, 2011 10:18:03 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Good thoughts Mystik, the AI has a huge advantage in that it can order every unit at once.  I think you are minimalizing the strategy in the top level starcraft matches, however.

 

While APM (or whatever the cool term is at the moment) is important to compete at a high level, it is a lot like an NFL quarter back - sure, you might have the talent, but if you don't know what to do with it, you're screwed.  The reason I like RTSes is because they require quick thinking.  I do not like the professional level action requirements, but it is a lot like playing speed chess.

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January 19, 2011 10:30:27 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting FutileEmotion,
Good thoughts Mystik, the AI has a huge advantage in that it can order every unit at once.  I think you are minimalizing the strategy in the top level starcraft matches, however.

 

While APM (or whatever the cool term is at the moment) is important to compete at a high level, it is a lot like an NFL quarter back - sure, you might have the talent, but if you don't know what to do with it, you're screwed.  The reason I like RTSes is because they require quick thinking.  I do not like the professional level action requirements, but it is a lot like playing speed chess.

 

I'm not minimizing anything, naturally with elite players i just assume they all know what their doing, so i did not think there any reason to add that point in my previous post.

 

Edit: I am not a big fan of RTS although i do make exceptions for a couple of games - Rise of Nations, Age of empires and Total Anihilation.

 

Interestingly, i cannot play Starcraft or Warcraft3 - Even on the easiest of levels, i have such a hard struggle that it is just not an enjoyable game at all!

Total Anihilation on the other hand, i can set it on hard, all metal map against 10 allied AI opponent and still win without even breaking a sweat! Rise Of Nations is about as hard as an RTS gets before it is no longer fun for me.

 

Come to think of it, it is probably because i am a bit of a control freak, that is why i am so at home in turn based games. I am well familiar with Warcraft3, since i played it allot when i first got it..... but part of the nature of Warcraft3 is that you get disruptions allot, and plans disturbed and disorganized, you have to think on your feet and respond and reorganize quickly - this is where i am weak.

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January 20, 2011 9:41:43 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Mystikmind,
Starcraft is a real time strategy game, and any AI has a big advantage in real time compared to turn based games because it can simultaneously command a vast number of objects. As a result you will never see AI's in turn based games ever being as effective. Elite Starcraft players are actually judged by how many 'clicks' they perform per second, this is precisely what it is all about, how quickly you can command your forces. None of this happens in turn based games.

I don't agree. That statement would be true if AI was actual real AI. Which it isn't. All "AI" is just preprogrammed reactions to actions.

 

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January 20, 2011 9:50:29 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Yamhee,

Quoting Mystikmind, reply 1Starcraft is a real time strategy game, and any AI has a big advantage in real time compared to turn based games because it can simultaneously command a vast number of objects. As a result you will never see AI's in turn based games ever being as effective. Elite Starcraft players are actually judged by how many 'clicks' they perform per second, this is precisely what it is all about, how quickly you can command your forces. None of this happens in turn based games.
I don't agree. That statement would be true if AI was actual real AI. Which it isn't. All "AI" is just preprogrammed reactions to actions.

 

If you read the article, you'll see they did quite a bit more than pre-programmed reactions to actions. They used that kind of thing as a starting point, and found it wasn't nearly good enough.

@Mystik - This was just the thing I wondered about after reading the article. AI does have an advantage in Starcraft from micro that it wouldn't get in a turn-based game. But some of the stuff they did looked like it could apply to turn-based games.

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January 20, 2011 4:03:29 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Wilson,

@Mystik - This was just the thing I wondered about after reading the article. AI does have an advantage in Starcraft from micro that it wouldn't get in a turn-based game. But some of the stuff they did looked like it could apply to turn-based games.

 

Well naturally progress is progress..... and then big game companies swoop them up!

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January 20, 2011 4:46:57 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Edit: I am not a big fan of RTS although i do make exceptions for a couple of games - Rise of Nations, Age of empires and Total Anihilation.

try out preatorians... this is one simple rts with no resource micromanagement other than creating units and fighting with strategic elements. great game check it out

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January 20, 2011 5:11:38 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Edit: I am not a big fan of RTS although i do make exceptions for a couple of games - Rise of Nations, Age of empires and Total Anihilation.

I havent played Rise of Nations, but played both AoE and AoE II, single player as well as on LAN. And Total Annihilation was my favorite, I even tried some mods recently (The Lost Legacy, Thalassen Campaign, etc).

On SourceForge, there was even a "Full 3D" game using the TA Engine or TA Units.. and they had made the AI so good, I usually lost, even after loading and re-loading save games, whereas I never lost in TA. That SourceForge game had an option to let the AI control both sides.. so I watched a few games and the AI had a great advantage in being able to control each unit individually, whereas what I usually do is lasso *all* units with the mouse cursor and click on the enemy to attack.

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January 20, 2011 5:21:03 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

The best AI I have ever seen is in Panther games "Battles from the Bulge"

I have no idea how it gets as good as this - but it is a pausible real time game.

However I do not agree that RTS's always have the AI advantage. The principles of PDCA work exactly the same whatever the quantum of effect is. Be it one turn or one clock cycle.

What IS different is that the AI in TBS needs to plan a 1-10 move co-ordinate AI strategy. whereas an RTS plans 1-10 clock cycle (or cycles per object) strategy. It may seem more reaactive in RTS - but that's like saying grand strategy is easier than battlefield tactics.

Sometimes it is - sometimes it isn't, there is no underlying reason why it should be.

Again though - all that said. Starcraft is excellent - but not a patch on the responsive command structures of Panther games last two offerings.

What does change is the players ability to micro control in real time once the numbers of units and action/counter action reaches a certain level (psychologists will tell you that juggling more than 6 actions or requirements in real time is hard) The perception is that RTS is thrashing you becasue it introduces more "fronts" to fight on that you can actually handle metally in real time.

In a turn based game, you can handle as many fronts as you like. I play SSG games (TB strats) where you have 20 or 30 micro battles occuring - but hey - you have as long as you like to process them - so it's no hassle. If this same AI was hammering me in real time - I would be shafted left-right and center.

It's great to have your strategic reactions tested to the limit. I always found Warcraft 3 very very easy and TA a real pain. So I guess we are all different.

 

Scritty

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January 20, 2011 7:02:41 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting noobshot,

try out preatorians... this is one simple rts with no resource micromanagement other than creating units and fighting with strategic elements. great game check it out

 

I have Preatorians actually, it is ok, but it is not a game i have ever bothered to go back and play again after the initial 'new game splurge'.

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January 20, 2011 8:14:03 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting gsitetfs,

I havent played Rise of Nations, but played both AoE and AoE II, single player as well as on LAN. And Total Annihilation was my favorite, I even tried some mods recently (The Lost Legacy, Thalassen Campaign, etc).

On SourceForge, there was even a "Full 3D" game using the TA Engine or TA Units.. and they had made the AI so good, I usually lost, even after loading and re-loading save games, whereas I never lost in TA. That SourceForge game had an option to let the AI control both sides.. so I watched a few games and the AI had a great advantage in being able to control each unit individually, whereas what I usually do is lasso *all* units with the mouse cursor and click on the enemy to attack.

 

You should definitely get Rise of Nations, it is truly a spectacular game! Don't get fooled by the newer Rise of Legends, you don't want that one.... sure it is an ok game but Rise of Nations is legendary!!

 

Scritty - It's great to have your strategic reactions tested to the limit. I always found Warcraft 3 very very easy and TA a real pain. So I guess we are all different.

 

Wow, that is hard to imagine? I mean in TA all you have to do at the start is immediately expand out and claim metal deposits, and guess what? There are no annoying creatures guarding anything! Then in TA you can build some forward defenses and the AI will senselessly attack them simply because they are the closest target and ignore weak points that are further away. If only the annoying scatter brained forces in Warcraft3 were so single minded! And even if you do build defenses in Warcraft3, they do not hold because of those blasted catapults!! There are no effective long ranged ground units in TA that can outrage a basic first level fixed cannon turret. Even if your defensive position in TA is damaged, repair units are capable of repairing stuff without any input from the player - i would love to see that ability in Warcraft3 as well!

 

Edit: Bingo! After making the above post, I just realized the key reason why i like to play Total Annihilation and not Starcraft or Warcraft3!!! One word..... Automation!!!!!! Starcraft and Warcraft 3 are designed not to be automation friendly, whereas Total Annihilation is! Well, at least the aircraft are, since in practice, the poor path finding can jam up automation in ground units.


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January 21, 2011 7:24:51 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Gotcha about TA.

I didn't play Vanilla - the version I have has something called "Shrimpy's Mod". I might give it another go.

With this still not in an enjoyable state, ands Star Wars the old republic slipped into 2012 (to allow them 2 years closed Beta - which has been going on since June last year already) - I'm probably going back to WoW and EvE for the next 12 months.

 

Scritty

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January 21, 2011 2:57:56 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I find AI work to be oddly fascinating.  I very much enjoyed reading the article.

While Elemental is a turn based game, as opposed to real time, I have to point out that a lot of the concepts still apply.

Probing the enemy for weak points, and exploiting them still applies to Elemental.  The only difference is you do that evaluation per turn, not per second.

As does capitalizing on resources, or taking them away from the enemy.

As does maximizing your builds to do the greatest damage to the enemy.

 

The coding will be different, but the concepts are the same. 

 

I'm sure that Brad found the Berkeley team's solutions to the problems fascinating if nothing else.  Who knows, there might be a future Stardock employee on the Berkeley team...

 

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January 21, 2011 5:10:47 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Mystikmind,
Quoting gsitetfs, reply 8
I havent played Rise of Nations, but played both AoE and AoE II, single player as well as on LAN. And Total Annihilation was my favorite, I even tried some mods recently (The Lost Legacy, Thalassen Campaign, etc).

On SourceForge, there was even a "Full 3D" game using the TA Engine or TA Units.. and they had made the AI so good, I usually lost, even after loading and re-loading save games, whereas I never lost in TA. That SourceForge game had an option to let the AI control both sides.. so I watched a few games and the AI had a great advantage in being able to control each unit individually, whereas what I usually do is lasso *all* units with the mouse cursor and click on the enemy to attack.

 

You should definitely get Rise of Nations, it is truly a spectacular game! Don't get fooled by the newer Rise of Legends, you don't want that one.... sure it is an ok game but Rise of Nations is legendary!!

 

Scritty - It's great to have your strategic reactions tested to the limit. I always found Warcraft 3 very very easy and TA a real pain. So I guess we are all different.
 

Wow, that is hard to imagine? I mean in TA all you have to do at the start is immediately expand out and claim metal deposits, and guess what? There are no annoying creatures guarding anything! Then in TA you can build some forward defenses and the AI will senselessly attack them simply because they are the closest target and ignore weak points that are further away. If only the annoying scatter brained forces in Warcraft3 were so single minded! And even if you do build defenses in Warcraft3, they do not hold because of those blasted catapults!! There are no effective long ranged ground units in TA that can outrage a basic first level fixed cannon turret. Even if your defensive position in TA is damaged, repair units are capable of repairing stuff without any input from the player - i would love to see that ability in Warcraft3 as well!

 

Edit: Bingo! After making the above post, I just realized the key reason why i like to play Total Annihilation and not Starcraft or Warcraft3!!! One word..... Automation!!!!!! Starcraft and Warcraft 3 are designed not to be automation friendly, whereas Total Annihilation is! Well, at least the aircraft are, since in practice, the poor path finding can jam up automation in ground units.


Maybe you can defeat 10 AI in TA, but I would kill you in 1v1 10 out of 10 times. The reason why you do not like Wc3/Starcraft is the way you think, not the way you play. You want to turtle up and fight later, while the point is to fight whenever is best to win. It is pure coincidence that the AI in TA is stupid enough to let you fight later.

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January 23, 2011 4:46:07 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting TorinReborn,

Maybe you can defeat 10 AI in TA, but I would kill you in 1v1 10 out of 10 times.

It is not often i would see such insulting arrogance, even from elite players whom usually hold their cards very close to their chest. Typically most elite players have respect for other people whom they know nothing about and usually people with big boasting mouths are the losers anyway.

The reason why you do not like Wc3/Starcraft is the way you think, not the way you play. You want to turtle up and fight later, while the point is to fight whenever is best to win. It is pure coincidence that the AI in TA is stupid enough to let you fight later.

You don't have to embarrass yourself with such foolish remarks when you do not have any idea who i am!.... if you had payed attention you will see that i also love to play Rise of Nations and if you don't know that game then that is more evidence you do not have enough information to comment as you have. If you do know Rise of Nations then you will know that proves your assumptions to be incorrect.

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January 24, 2011 10:12:04 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Mystikmind,

and usually people with big boasting mouths are the losers anyway.

.

QFT LOL.

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January 26, 2011 7:45:02 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Mystikmind,
Quoting TorinReborn, reply 14
Maybe you can defeat 10 AI in TA, but I would kill you in 1v1 10 out of 10 times.

It is not often i would see such insulting arrogance, even from elite players whom usually hold their cards very close to their chest. Typically most elite players have respect for other people whom they know nothing about and usually people with big boasting mouths are the losers anyway.

The reason why you do not like Wc3/Starcraft is the way you think, not the way you play. You want to turtle up and fight later, while the point is to fight whenever is best to win. It is pure coincidence that the AI in TA is stupid enough to let you fight later.
You don't have to embarrass yourself with such foolish remarks when you do not have any idea who i am!.... if you had payed attention you will see that i also love to play Rise of Nations and if you don't know that game then that is more evidence you do not have enough information to comment as you have. If you do know Rise of Nations then you will know that proves your assumptions to be incorrect.

If it is anything like Age of Empires I do not care. Age of Empires was a stupid and boring game. I know what I am talking about.

I have played in Multiplayer against other players with the intention to win:  C&C1, Warcraft 1&2&3, Red Alert 1&2, C&C: Generals&ZeroHour, TA, Starcraft 1 and 2, Dawn of War and many less known RTS games (yes even Age of Empires1&2 although that game was too stupid to play it a lot).

 I stand by my estimate that I would destroy you in 1v1 because I do not turtle like you or play like you.

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January 26, 2011 8:42:02 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting TorinReborn,
I stand by my estimate that I would destroy you in 1v1 because I do not turtle like you or play like you.

 

I will stand by my estimate that you would benefit from my advice not to embarrass yourself with such foolish remarks when you do not have any idea who i am! (Boasting is of course acceptable among friends and or people who actually know each other)

Any professional gamer or even sportsmen will tell you that it is extremely bad form to do so, unless your a professional boxer, in which case a big mouth is encouraged!

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January 26, 2011 8:45:55 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Mystikmind,

Quoting TorinReborn, reply 17 I stand by my estimate that I would destroy you in 1v1 because I do not turtle like you or play like you.
 

I will stand by my estimate that you would benefit from my advice not to embarrass yourself with such foolish remarks when you do not have any idea who i am! (Boasting is of course acceptable among friends and or people who actually know each other)

Any professional gamer or even sportsmen will tell you that it is extremely bad form to do so, unless your a professional boxer, in which case a big mouth is encouraged!

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January 27, 2011 2:52:52 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Mystikmind,
Quoting TorinReborn, reply 17 I stand by my estimate that I would destroy you in 1v1 because I do not turtle like you or play like you.

 

I will stand by my estimate that you would benefit from my advice not to embarrass yourself with such foolish remarks when you do not have any idea who i am! (Boasting is of course acceptable among friends and or people who actually know each other)

Any professional gamer or even sportsmen will tell you that it is extremely bad form to do so, unless your a professional boxer, in which case a big mouth is encouraged!

I am sorry, but telling us all how you defeat 10 AI is not boasting? I just decided to bring you down to ground a bit.

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January 27, 2011 5:01:27 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting TorinReborn,
I am sorry, but telling us all how you defeat 10 AI is not boasting? I just decided to bring you down to ground a bit.

 

Your kidding rite? Sorry but discussion on defeating AI could not possibly be more far removed from being in any way similar or relevant or reason for boasting about defeating people you do not know personally.

 

 

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January 28, 2011 11:48:35 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting TorinReborn,

Quoting Mystikmind, reply 18Quoting TorinReborn, reply 17 I stand by my estimate that I would destroy you in 1v1 because I do not turtle like you or play like you.

 

I will stand by my estimate that you would benefit from my advice not to embarrass yourself with such foolish remarks when you do not have any idea who i am! (Boasting is of course acceptable among friends and or people who actually know each other)

Any professional gamer or even sportsmen will tell you that it is extremely bad form to do so, unless your a professional boxer, in which case a big mouth is encouraged!
I am sorry, but telling us all how you defeat 10 AI is not boasting? I just decided to bring you down to ground a bit.

 

How did you bring him down any? All you did was pull out your epeen, attempt to rub it in his face like a 12 year old little snot. Followed by using an unsubstantiated claim that you could beat him hands down 1 on 1. Maybe you could, maybe you couldn't. But the fact of the matter is it was a purely juvenile response typical of under achievers who's only outlet for any form of validation is though prattling online about how legendary their skills are. When statistically speaking chances are you are a mouth breather who can barely form a cognitive sentence. Let alone plan out a successful strategy. Fortunately for you I'm probably just trolling you because I find you pathetic. Then again I might not be trolling you. But the pathetic part still stands.

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January 29, 2011 5:29:51 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Mystikmind,
Starcraft is a real time strategy game, and any AI has a big advantage in real time compared to turn based games because it can simultaneously command a vast number of objects. As a result you will never see AI's in turn based games ever being as effective. Elite Starcraft players are actually judged by how many 'clicks' they perform per second, this is precisely what it is all about, how quickly you can command your forces. None of this happens in turn based games.

Exactly +1 quoted for truth and quality of report. BTW SC2 sucks.

 

but it is a lot like playing speed chess.

It is nowhere near like playing speed chess. Speed chess is turn based and requires  much tactics and strategy. Clickfest RTS games are nothing but romper room TEMPLATES that are played over and over and over again in tournament play and outside. Once a specific template has been mastered and posted on the internet everyone is using it and then it just boils down to who is the quikest jerkoff.

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January 30, 2011 10:54:55 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Femmefatal48,
Exactly +1 quoted for truth and quality of report. BTW SC2 sucks.

It is nowhere near like playing speed chess. Speed chess is turn based and requires  much tactics and strategy. Clickfest RTS games are nothing but romper room TEMPLATES that are played over and over and over again in tournament play and outside. Once a specific template has been mastered and posted on the internet everyone is using it and then it just boils down to who is the quikest jerkoff.

 

I wouldn't put quite that much a negative spin on it, It is very entertaining to allot of people. but certainly it is useless trying to have an entertaining game playing against someone using a refined monotone strategy. What happens in the end is that everyone starts refusing to play that person, so then they have to go and find other like minded players (such as at tournaments). I remember one friend i used to have who was fond of playing one particular card game (i forget the name) and he had a specific refined strategy he used every time to win - but it was not long at all before everyone refused to play him anymore, because what's the point? 

But at any time, players are free to try and break fixed strategies, these are the truely interesting games of SC2 to watch!

 

Dragoaskani - Ouch! (If only he took my advice, sigh)

 

 

 

 

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