And you decide to hire the guy that ruined the 20-year old Civilization franchise???

By on January 4, 2011 7:09:11 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

rebelito

Join Date 04/2003
+4

Dear FrogBoy,

I have owned most of your titles since GalCiv1. I enjoyed your creations thoroughly. Now, I was about to buy Elemental after reading how much better it became with patch 1.1. I wanted to buy Elemental because the lead designer of Civilization 5 ruined my civ experience after 20 years of loyal support.

Not anymore. I will not buy any other game that this person touches. I know of many that were thinking along the same lines, and were about to put money into Elemental to run away from the monster that this "lead designer" created and that is not true to the succesful principles that made Civilization the best franchise ever.

With this move, I think you lost a huge amount of potential sales that were about to happen, Brad. I'm sorry. Good luck, you will need it now.

 

Regards,

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January 4, 2011 8:37:35 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting FatNonFree,
Is this the wrong place to ask, what is Python?

It's a programming/scripting language.

 

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January 4, 2011 8:39:21 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

It's a programming/scripting language for people who are obsessed with spaces and tabs.

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January 4, 2011 8:52:24 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I, for one, welcome our new modding overlord.

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January 4, 2011 8:52:49 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I love the internet; any moron with a keyboard can pour their uneducated opinions out for all to read.  Only on this Forum, the CEO steps in to explain the situation.  And only on this Forum, he's basically told he's wrong by an uneducated moron.

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January 4, 2011 9:11:29 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Wahngrok,
I, for one, welcome our new modding overlord.

 

I thought he was our modding czar?

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January 4, 2011 9:26:27 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting ZehDon,
I love the internet; any moron with a keyboard can pour their uneducated opinions out for all to read.  Only on this Forum, the CEO steps in to explain the situation.  And only on this Forum, he's basically told he's wrong by an uneducated moron.

+1

Myself, I am please to see Stardock adding more talent to their company to improve upon Elemental. Only a retard would be against this. As for Jon, I never played Civ V. but only a retard would assume that all decision are made by the lead designer, espicially on a AAA studio. there is nothing here that tells us that making the game easier/simpler didn't came from higher up and was part of the thing Jon had to make with the game.

So I am guessing that guys like the OP believe Sid Meier is the bane of the gaming sim industry because one day he created a game called civilization Revolution? Pathetic...

It's not because Jon simplified Civ V that his role will be the same on elemental. We do not know, beside making the game more extensible, what jon will be contributing to on Elemental and other games.

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January 4, 2011 9:42:32 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

OP has clearly never glanced at the modding potential in Civ5.

It is out of this world. As good as elemental's modding support is at allowing users to add content to the game, Civ5's is 10 times better.

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January 4, 2011 9:50:01 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Heavenfall,
OP has clearly never glanced at the modding potential in Civ5.

It is out of this world. As good as elemental's modding support is at allowing users to add content to the game, Civ5's is 10 times better.

 

To be fair modding support is great but the more complex modding is not hugely important to alot of people. Me for instance.. give me some XML or CSV etc and let me go to town.. once i have to SDK or python i'm out of my league so the potential it has from there is moot unless i'm lucky enough to run into a prebuilt mod component that is A. exactly what i wanted and B.useable in the CURRENT version of the game.

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January 4, 2011 9:52:32 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Fistalis,

Quoting Heavenfall, reply 32OP has clearly never glanced at the modding potential in Civ5.

It is out of this world. As good as elemental's modding support is at allowing users to add content to the game, Civ5's is 10 times better.

To be fair modding support is great but not hugely important to alot of people. Me for instance.. give me some XML and let me go to town.. once i have to SDK or python i'm out of my league so the potential it has from there is moot.

So... What he's been hired to do, you admit that he does great, and yet you are still unhappy with him having been hired for this position?

And even if you don't care for Python personally, surely you'd like to see some of the surely great mods which people would make?

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January 4, 2011 9:55:43 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Cruxador,

Quoting Fistalis, reply 33
Quoting Heavenfall, reply 32OP has clearly never glanced at the modding potential in Civ5.

It is out of this world. As good as elemental's modding support is at allowing users to add content to the game, Civ5's is 10 times better.
To be fair modding support is great but not hugely important to alot of people. Me for instance.. give me some XML and let me go to town.. once i have to SDK or python i'm out of my league so the potential it has from there is moot.
So... What he's been hired to do, you admit that he does great, and yet you are still unhappy with him having been hired for this position?
And even if you don't care for Python personally, surely you'd like to see some of the surely great mods which people would make?

I said modding support is great.. not HIS modding support. I meant in general. Since I know jack about python which civ IV used(Civ V uses something else forgot what it was) and SDK i can't really comment on how civ Vs modding support is.

 

Which is funny.. that if something is great in civ V then it was shafer but if something was terrible then its not his fault? wtf

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January 4, 2011 9:56:41 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

so python is better than xml?

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January 4, 2011 9:57:42 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting FatNonFree,
so python is better than xml?

Python has alot more capabilities than XML.

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January 4, 2011 9:58:13 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

My thoughts:

Brad doesn't need to call fans insane, frankly thats unwise and I'm surprised he did as much. Truth is self evident and we have anonymous posters like us for that.

I have significant brand loyalty to stardock for their efforts with GalCiv, their execution with Stardock/Impulse/Other Products, their unflagging responsible outlook on software security, and their role in Sins of a Solar Empire (though obviously Ironclad needs a big hurrah for that).

I think judging a game which requires a major studio thousands of man hours to produce and a large staff on 1 man is reckless and frankly mean-spirited. Which is exactly the sort of attitudes on both sides of the aisle (customer/business) that produced all the things most people hate most about games today: unstable releases, blatant lack of support, derogatory security. Don't even get me started on Fallout 3 and Games for Windows Live.

I would also note that in another time and place, circa 1850-60 it would not be questioned for Jon to challenge you to a pistol duel. And if it were considered honorable to do so, I would indeed buy a ticket to see and likely root for Jon.

 

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January 4, 2011 10:00:44 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Comparing python to xml is like comparing Windows to a text file.

Quoting Fistalis,


Which is funny.. that if something is great in civ V then it was shafer but if something was terrible then its not his fault? wtf

You know what... you're exactly right. I'm sure he added parts I don't like as well as parts I like to Civ5.

I'm not saying everything he changes with Elemental will make it better. I'm saying I will not pass judgement based on Civ5.

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January 4, 2011 10:01:35 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Tiberonmagnus,
I'm happy with the news, and I'm glad that there are even more people behind Elemental to make it even better.

This, succinctly put. I don't get the anger... more experienced people are now working on elemental, how is that bad?

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January 4, 2011 10:12:33 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Heavenfall,
Comparing python to xml is like comparing Windows to a text file.


Quoting Fistalis, reply 35

Which is funny.. that if something is great in civ V then it was shafer but if something was terrible then its not his fault? wtf
You know what... you're exactly right. I'm sure he added parts I don't like as well as parts I like to Civ5.

I'm not saying everything he changes with Elemental will make it better. I'm saying I will not pass judgement based on Civ5.

 

I'm not saying that he won't do a great job on elemental. I'm saying that in my opinion he ruined the lastest installment of my favorite franchise and i'm still pissed about it. I bought elemental to get away from the sort of design decisions he made only for him to be  hired on to the game i bought to support a different design style. Its maddening I tell you. A lesson in the absurd.

And to be honest. Had this been announced prior to my purchase of elemental I wouldn't have bought it. Simply because the state of Civ V is what lead me to buy elemental.  I woulda just said F it i'll wait for a new paradox game.

Which is basically my point.. (or was before i got derailed in thought) the ill will (deserved or not) that people feel toward shafer for Civ V is now going to be felt by elemental. As the OP has demonstrated.

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January 4, 2011 10:19:57 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting ,

Not anymore. I will not buy any other game that this person touches.

Shafer was a well respected modder of Civilization before he was ever hired.  He worked on Civ IV and its expansion packs.  Civ 5 isn't the best game in the series, but it is still fun to play.

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January 4, 2011 10:21:23 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting glucero0,

Brad, that may be totally true, but I personally couldn't care in the list about an extensible, moddable game. I want a good game and Elemental is a lousy one. The campaign is awful and the rest of the game is disappointing. 

Ha.  Insanity reigns.  Neverwinter Nights would have failed, had it stood on its campaign alone.  What made it a success was that it was highly extensible and modifiable.

I'd agree with the campaign being awful, and seemingly tacked on, but Elemental itself is pretty fun in v1.1. 

 

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January 4, 2011 10:22:13 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Hate to say it but the naysayers have made a cogent point.

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January 4, 2011 10:23:44 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Producing software in public large organizations is design by committee in the worst way; as a software designer most of my job is screaming at idiots with the money until one of us gives up.  When I do my job right, I win and interfaces that don't make people cry are released.  When I lose I try and get a sigma process attached to the project so we can chart the fail rate of their design decisions.  Most software that sucks is greenlit by money guys who don't care.  One of the things that makes SD so good is the money guy DOES care, and deeply.

 

I personally am ""meh" about Civ 5.  Combat is much improved and tactically interesting, larger systems are crippled, and the AI is brain dead.  First Civ I have abandoned from boredom in 2 weeks since I was 12.  And at this point I expect them to charge me for a DL additon Gengis Kahn that uses horses. 

 

Since there is evidence of great, good, and bad, let the man stand on the work he does in this game. 

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January 4, 2011 10:34:38 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Guibs,

So I am guessing that guys like the OP believe Sid Meier is the bane of the gaming sim industry because one day he created a game called civilization Revolution? Pathetic...

Errr CivRev rocked hardore! Modern version of CIV I. The thing with it was to be able to look beyond comparing it to CIV IV. CivRev is a very good game.

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January 4, 2011 10:41:38 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting tetleytea,
Hate to say it but the naysayers have made a cogent point.

which is what?

I have failed to find a cogent point in this discussion.  Brad and his team personally interviewed a qualified candidate with major experience.  They looked at his resume and portfolio, I am sure that their understanding of Jon's role with Civ5 is far greater than Rebelito's.  I'm also quite confident that their understanding of the needs of their company is much clearer than Rebelito's.

Here "Since there is evidence of great, good, and bad, let the man stand on the work he does in this game." is a cogent point.

 

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January 4, 2011 10:48:23 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Fistalis said that he bought Elemental precisely in order to get away from Civ V.  Now he bought it and...lo and behold, what do they do?   Hire the Civ V staff.  Those aren't the words of an internet moron.  He makes a point.

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January 4, 2011 10:48:55 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

So to the heart of the OP's beef...What's the dealio with Jon Shafer and Civ5?  Why did Jon leave Civ5 series for Elemental?  Was Jon not happy over there?  I am quiting my job of 16 years simply because I no longer enjoy it.  I no longer believe my management.  Actions speak louder than words, it does not take a rocket scientist to match actions to words and when they do or they don't match - draw your conclusions. 

I think the real deal is the reason Jon left and to the OP that just might be not for public consumption.  But hey now, I'm curious!  Any Drama involved? 

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January 4, 2011 10:49:10 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Gauntlet03,
Brad doesn't need to call fans insane, frankly thats unwise and I'm surprised he did as much. Truth is self evident and we have anonymous posters like us for that.
While this is true, I personally would rather see developers on the forum and talking in an entirely uncensored fashion. This may mean that people, including the CEO, are not always a perfect model of restraint and tact, but that's how normal communication goes. People can get a bit dickish at times. And this was really not bad at all; from anyone else it wouldn't have prompted comment.

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