A new low for the AI

By on January 4, 2011 3:42:01 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

FatNonFree

Join Date 10/2010
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I traded 507 of my diplomatic capital for 1000 gold (which was all their money). Now their broke and ripe for the taking! Might want to fix this too on the AI Brad!

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January 4, 2011 4:20:40 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Which problem are you refering to? That they traded all their gold or that they gave you anything for diplomatic capital (last I checked it was worthless)? Or do you mean both?

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January 4, 2011 8:02:48 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Both.

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January 4, 2011 8:07:29 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I love diplomatic capital as a concept. I just wish it wasn't acquired as much by buildings but rather by deeds and was faction specific. IE give them 100 gildar worth of resources for 50 gildar and you get 50 gildar worth of diplomatic capital that is specifically for them. marriages would give diplomatic capital to both sides etc. Maybe keep embassies that build small amounts but only for the nation its built for. IE Embassy of Umber only gives capital for umber.

 

My 2 cents on diplo capital.

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January 4, 2011 8:23:00 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I hear what your saying but DC doesn't do anything. For example if I traded weapons or armor for things the computer could uses those. Diplomatic capital doesn't do anything.

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January 4, 2011 8:26:30 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting FatNonFree,
I hear what your saying but DC doesn't do anything. For example if I traded weapons or armor for things the computer could uses those. Diplomatic capital doesn't do anything.
It allows you to trade for stuff.. its meant for.. trading. IT does do something.. it allows you to get stuff from other people without spending gold or resources. That being said.. as i said before i just wish it A.wasn't  so abundant and B. was Specific between factions. Makes no sense one can build general diplomatic capital and spend it with anyone.

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January 4, 2011 8:31:42 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

It may allow you get stuff from others but it has no real value. Like a million dollar share in a company that you can't cash in until 3042.

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January 4, 2011 8:34:00 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting FatNonFree,
It may allow you get stuff from others but it has no real value. Like a million dollar share in a company that you can't cash in until 3042.
LoL.. maybe you don't understand the term diplomatic capital?

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January 4, 2011 8:37:42 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

The core problem here is that the AI does not adequately consider its own need for a resource. Or so it seems from this limited description, anyway. The AI should be unwilling to trade away things that it needs, except in exchange for great wealth. It should factor into this the rate at which it produces a resource, and ideally how able it might be to replenish its stocks of the resource through trading with others.

Diplomatic Capital's relative uselessness is a separate issue, and I don't know how to fix that one, or if it even needs fixing in the first place.

Quoting Fistalis,
I love diplomatic capital as a concept. I just wish it wasn't acquired as much by buildings but rather by deeds and was faction specific. IE give them 100 gildar worth of resources for 50 gildar and you get 50 gildar worth of diplomatic capital that is specifically for them. marriages would give diplomatic capital to both sides etc. Maybe keep embassies that build small amounts but only for the nation its built for. IE Embassy of Umber only gives capital for umber.
Faction-specific DC is too complicated. I like the general thrust of this, though. It could be accrued through dynasty building, and through the general splendor of your cities and strength of your armies compared to that of others, and the strength of your allies as modified by the strength of your ties to those allies.

In other words, the things that effect diplomatic capital in real life. Some buildings with potential to provide large amounts of diplomatic capital would be nice, if you wanted to play an Israel-style nation, small but still commanding giants.

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January 4, 2011 8:39:17 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting FatNonFree,
It may allow you get stuff from others but it has no real value. Like a million dollar share in a company that you can't cash in until 3042.
It has value because it allows you to get stuff from others. It's currency. This is like you saying "these millions of dollars in cash are useless because I can't do anything with them.

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January 4, 2011 9:06:59 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Cruxador,

Quoting FatNonFree, reply 6It may allow you get stuff from others but it has no real value. Like a million dollar share in a company that you can't cash in until 3042.It has value because it allows you to get stuff from others. It's currency. This is like you saying "these millions of dollars in cash are useless because I can't do anything with them.

 

they are useless until 3042.

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January 4, 2011 9:47:45 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting FatNonFree,

Quoting Cruxador, reply 9
Quoting FatNonFree, reply 6It may allow you get stuff from others but it has no real value. Like a million dollar share in a company that you can't cash in until 3042.It has value because it allows you to get stuff from others. It's currency. This is like you saying "these millions of dollars in cash are useless because I can't do anything with them.
 

they are useless until 3042.
Note that I was using a different metaphor: Cash. What can you do with a hundred dollar bill, besides trade it for some other resource? Almost nothing. So it is, by your reckoning, useless.

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January 4, 2011 9:54:32 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

What would you say is diplomatic capital in real life?

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January 4, 2011 9:57:24 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

This is a bad game mechanic problem, not an AI problem.

 

 

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January 4, 2011 11:10:17 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Diplomatic capitol is supposed to represent your nation's political influence, the good will you've accumilated, the "clout" you have with the people of the other country, etc. You're getting it, after all, by building things like embassies. 

It's not supposed to do anything. It's not a "resource" like the other commodities you trade. At least, it isn't yet.

It's great that you can use it to trade for things, but I can see where it would be a problem that the AI would trade for it, but we humans never would.

The best way to "fix" the problem is to restrict what you can use it for. Make it so that Diplomatic capitol can only be used to broker treaties, rather than to trade for commodities. You could use it to broker more advantageous marriages, more advantageous non-agression pacts, to convince other countries to go to war, or to broker for peace, etc.

 

This way it still has value - it's going to save you a lot of other commodities - but it can't be abused as easily.

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January 5, 2011 3:03:07 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Dwolf63,
Diplomatic capitol is supposed to represent your nation's political influence, the good will you've accumilated, the "clout" you have with the people of the other country, etc. You're getting it, after all, by building things like embassies. 

It's not supposed to do anything. It's not a "resource" like the other commodities you trade. At least, it isn't yet.

It's great that you can use it to trade for things, but I can see where it would be a problem that the AI would trade for it, but we humans never would.

The best way to "fix" the problem is to restrict what you can use it for. Make it so that Diplomatic capitol can only be used to broker treaties, rather than to trade for commodities. You could use it to broker more advantageous marriages, more advantageous non-agression pacts, to convince other countries to go to war, or to broker for peace, etc.

 

This way it still has value - it's going to save you a lot of other commodities - but it can't be abused as easily.

 

I agree if SD uses it the way you just said then it has value.

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January 5, 2011 3:10:08 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting FatNonFree,
I agree if SD uses it the way you just said then it has value.
It can already be used in that way. It's just that it can be used in other ways too. That means it has more value, not less. It still lacks inherent practical utility, though.

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January 5, 2011 9:40:27 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Ill have to check this out in my game tonight I have not spent much time in the diplomacy track.

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January 5, 2011 1:45:15 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

The above was my "quick fix". A better fix for DipCap would be to convince other countries to make trades they wouldn't otherwise - which of course means that there would have to be a change in how various commodities are prioritized.

 

Let me explain.

Things like gold and plain materials are easy to come by. Your population provides gold, you can make worships to create materials. Those things can run short at times yes, but they're "common goods".

Things like metal, crystals, elementium, horses, etc, those are uncommon to rare commodities. Other civs should be more hesitant to trade uncommon goods for common goods and there should be a higher exchange rate which can then be modified or made up for by spending DipCap.

There should be a law of diminishing returns in there too. The less of an important resource my opponent has, the more he should demand for it. As it stands it's silly that i can use a bit of gold and plain goods to get my AI opponents last 3 horses, or the last of their crystal supply.

 

I doubt this part of the game will get looked at right now, but I'm hoping at some point when diplomacy gets addressed, trading will too.

 

 

 

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January 5, 2011 2:08:31 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

The other thing diplomatic capital does is boost your relations with other factions. So, it basically allows you to have a lower combat rating without the AI always wanting to declare war. 

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January 5, 2011 4:59:52 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting ,

I traded 507 of my diplomatic capital for 1000 gold (which was all their money). Now their broke and ripe for the taking! Might want to fix this too on the AI Brad!

Hardly new. I've been doing this forever now. It's not an AI problem, it's a diplomatic capital problem.

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January 7, 2011 12:21:44 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

It doesn't seem to me that it's a diplomatic capital problem so much as a perceived value problem with the AI. They value it highly under strange and counterintuitive circumstances.

When the AI declares war on me, for example, even if I let them win for a good while, eventually they'll value my DC very highly (like 11 to 1) and I'll be able to buy a peace treaty easily. Shouldn't DC with someone you're at war with be especially worthless if you're not losing?

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January 7, 2011 12:33:17 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting ,
I traded 507 of my diplomatic capital for 1000 gold (which was all their money). Now their broke and ripe for the taking! Might want to fix this too on the AI Brad!

The following is an AI problem... 

You don't even need to trade diplomatic capital to make a rival faction go broke. Just Declare war with 1 faction via the trade menu while talking to a another faction, declare peace & repeat (seems theres no limit as to how many times you can do that in a single turn... though, if you do it to many times in 1 turn the game will completely crash; potentially, a save made during, or directly after that will be corrupt as well) ... that AI should really be changed. So far to date the largest ammount of gilder I've recieved in early game for a single "War~Trade" is 1,874 gilder.

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January 7, 2011 12:17:01 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Diardiamond,




quoting post
I traded 507 of my diplomatic capital for 1000 gold (which was all their money). Now their broke and ripe for the taking! Might want to fix this too on the AI Brad!



The following is an AI problem... 

You don't even need to trade diplomatic capital to make a rival faction go broke. Just Declare war with 1 faction via the trade menu while talking to a another faction, declare peace & repeat (seems theres no limit as to how many times you can do that in a single turn... though, if you do it to many times in 1 turn the game will completely crash; potentially, a save made during, or directly after that will be corrupt as well) ... that AI should really be changed. So far to date the largest ammount of gilder I've recieved in early game for a single "War~Trade" is 1,874 gilder.

This seems like an exploit and needs to be fixed, I would not use it as I think it would make the game to easy.

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January 7, 2011 12:23:03 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

This seems like an exploit and needs to be fixed, I would not use it as I think it would make the game to easy.

Yup, agreed. That's why I mentioned it because I would like to see the AI improved.^^

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January 8, 2011 12:22:10 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Well we already know that the AI doesn't plan ahead with its resources very well so once that is fixed the AI will be better able to make resource trades. I think that alone will solve most of the exploit problem... not sure about DC itself. It seems to me like DC should be difficult to acquire, maybe diminishing returns?

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