Gene1966

Join Date 03/2010

Elemental v1.1 First impressions

I made a point of not playing the betas, and it was theright decision. The game is fresher than ever and better balanced than before. below are some of my specific standout impression and feedback for SD.

+ Armor is important now. Glass cannon units -those with strong offense and no defense are now vulnerable.

- Armor should not prevent all damage imho - it should mitigate damage. Even if I out tech armor vs other factions, my units should still take damage on being hit even if only 1 point. That way units are not made nearly invulnerable. and the horde of massive numbers can still bring down a mighty armored knight but the knoight will make a good showing.

+ I like the way magic is handled now. Though it does make the magic tech tree heavy. (that is neither good nor bad take it as an observation -nuetral)

- AI plays like a 6 year old, I know I raised two who are now 9 and 10. AI needs improvement. Although it is trying to do semi intelligent things like run from a larger force - kudos for that! But overall the AI is not is not acting as if it is aware when it's capital is being threatened, it is not even trying, maybe it is because it already calculted that it's a lost cause and it might be but that is NO REASON to NOT TRY. Remember the FUN AI vs competitive AIlecture from the CIV devs?

+ the flow through the early to mid game has changed dramatically and the town building is more interesting now. There are real reasons too speciallize town for different types of research.

- As mentioned in other threads, the WAR STAFF specifically and 2 handers in general need further balancing. They are a bit on the too powerful side of the house and they should be more powerful than their contemporary 1 handers, but cmon given the rarity of metal, you are defacto forcing folks to go the route of the war staff w/o metal. Can anyone explain what the differences are between a staff and a war staff that make the war staff justified doing 15 damage and the staff 4 damage while the short sword and mace both do 9 and 11 respectively? The war staff is doing almost 400% damage of the staff... maybe it should be 12 or 13, still generous for no metal and still an upgrade from boar/oak spears both at 9 damage.

- I ran into the load crash-bug, that one seems to be new since 1.09e. I also am still seeing CTD within 100-200 turns using ATI HD4850 latest drivers and Win7 64-bit. Would really mean a lot to the user experience to get rid of those.

+ overall: B- Good work Stardock! It is Fun! Any game that can keep me up all night w/o noticing the time deserves at least a B grade, I'd really like to give a A rating but as noted there are some issues that still need to be ironed out. So far so good!

How do your impressions match up?

Kind Regards,

Gene

elemental

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I was playing for the first time in a while last night on 1.09 and wondering about the next patch. Good deal.

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Mystikmind

Join Date 06/2004

+20

i had a good look through the details of the work done in 1.1, there is allot of effort put in but i did not see anything that excited me to rush off and play the game again? I am hopeful that i will come to appreciate it as i play the game.

There is only one thing i would really want to see changed about this game anyway.... what has so far been lacking in this game, is the capacity to build up the wealth of cities (without gold mines) in similar terms to other games such as the civilization series. - You know, it gets to the point where building up/more cities just feels pointless and futile then i have to exit the game.

In a nutshell...

I believe cities are the engine of these type of strategic games, you need to be sufficiently rewarded for your efforts in expanding them and building them up or it will start to feel pointless real quick. If i am not seeing this in 1.1 i will be sadly dissapointed with this game no matter what else has been done.

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@Mystikmind

...You do realize that the population of your cities now pay taxes, giving you a direct gold income based on the amount of citizens in the city. That's exactly what you described you wanted, and it's in 1.1.

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Mystikmind

Join Date 06/2004

+20

Quoting Tempestwrath,

reply 3

Sounds fantastic, and for a second i was very exited when i saw it in the description of 1.1, changes. but then as i read further i was a bit confused by the way it is worded, seems to suggest population tax was in the earlier versions too. And if so then it must be very weak, and a very weak population tax will not do very much to alleviate feelings of pointlessness. So i decided i will just have to wait and see when i play, unless someone can tell me upfront how strong an impact this population tax has?

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Population tax is the primary form of income. Like, seriously. Gold mines are rare bonuses. Your population is the most important resource now. To the point that gold is FAR more plentiful than before, but almost everything has an upkeep cost, keeping it somewhat in check. You have to decide not only to grow your population, but how much upkeep you can afford to pay and whether you have enough population to support the buildings in question in the first place.

The reason things seem worded strangely in the patch notes is because it's actually a compiled list of all the 1.1 beta patch notes put together, so it often refers to earlier parts of the beta.

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ElanaAhova

Join Date 09/2008

+105

Yes, played a few hours earlier today. I was running a deficit economy, and turned things around by building dwellings, and increasing my population.

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well i played until i crashed 20min in - haven't played since.

its a nice story

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Yes there are still the same old Out of Memory Errors for ATI and Win7 64-bit. Sure wish SD would test/Develop on modern OS, but that said , the economy is very nicely balanced, you can tip it out of whack and it can grind to a halt but you can also set it right again and pick up where you went wrong.

The game is not perfect and many folks still have legitimate gripes, but it is at least a entertaining game now. I was pissed off at teh quality of the game back at launch but I think SD is making good on promises made, I'm no fanboy but I'm becoming a fan.

If I take a military stance and get a good early placement of resources then I roll right through AI opponents. The AI should realize I am killing opposing Sov's and the remaining SOV's left should be cutting all kinds of deals (the enemy of my enemy is my friend -sort).

Still it is fun to play...

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Werewindlefr

Join Date 03/2007

+28

Remember the FUN AI vs competitive AIlecture from the CIV devs?

One of their most clever lines. Stardock, please don't forget to consider this: the AI needs to play to win, and nothing else. "AI personality" should never replace that; it should at most influence the direction the AI will take to win.

I mean, it's nice and all to have the world feel like it's living and that you're confronting other leaders with personalities and stuff, but it's first and foremost a game and it need challenge. And enemies which will create that challenge.

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Mystikmind

Join Date 06/2004

+20

Quoting Tempestwrath,

reply 5

Population tax is the primary form of income. Like, seriously. Gold mines are rare bonuses. Your population is the most important resource now. To the point that gold is FAR more plentiful than before, but almost everything has an upkeep cost, keeping it somewhat in check. You have to decide not only to grow your population, but how much upkeep you can afford to pay and whether you have enough population to support the buildings in question in the first place.

The reason things seem worded strangely in the patch notes is because it's actually a compiled list of all the 1.1 beta patch notes put together, so it often refers to earlier parts of the beta.

Thanks for that.

So i can anticipate that food will have replaced gold as the primary limiting factor on expansion now?

And the food multiplier of caravans is gone, i know that, so it will be pretty harsh? If so, well, being limited by food is definitely preferable to being limited by gold i would say - If you find yourself between a rock and a hard place with food at least other aspects of the game can still function whereas before, if you found yourself between a rock and a hard place with gold, everything around you is affected!!

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Quoting Mystikmind,

reply 10

Thanks for that.

So i can anticipate that food will have replaced gold as the primary limiting factor on expansion now?

And the food multiplier of caravans is gone, i know that, so it will be pretty harsh? If so, well, being limited by food is definitely preferable to being limited by gold i would say - If you find yourself between a rock and a hard place with food at least other aspects of the game can still function whereas before, if you found yourself between a rock and a hard place with gold, everything around you is affected!!

It's still a limiting factor, and it's well balanced to prevent things from going too nuts, but the best way I can put it is expansion feels smoother and more organic now, where it was kind of jagged and strange beforehand.

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I disagree with the idea of making the AI play to win. Some will then say, well dont you play to win? And my answer is I play to have fun. Usually that means winning, but winning can mean different things. Do you mean militarily, diplomatically, or by using magic? All those will have to factor in and should definitely favor certain AI leaders. Most people will say that they just want to crush your enemy, to see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women...lol. I for one, want to enjoy a game and based on how the game goes, come up with different plans. I would think it kinda neat to find another AI and work together for a victory... and why not? This isnt highlander where there can be only one, or is it? I like multiple ways to win, but in the end, I just want to play a game thats enjoyable and I think they are headed in the right direction. I would love to see them add some type of "culture" victory ala Civ which would then give us Militarily, Magic, Diplomatic, and culture ways of winning.

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Mystikmind

Join Date 06/2004

+20

Quoting Tempestwrath,

reply 11

Kingdoms, when sufficiently far into the tree, can produce Gardens in their cities, and Empires can make an equivalent. They give a city 2 food production per turn, which can be modified by irrigation and granaries and such, so you can eventually have cities that aren't quite so reliant on fertile grounds being nearby.

It's still a limiting factor, and it's well balanced to prevent things from going too nuts, but the best way I can put it is expansion feels smoother and more organic now, where it was kind of jagged and strange beforehand.

Thanks for the heads up on the game, I might take a break from my Silverfall campaign tonight and give Elemental a go. I bought Silverfall on Impulse last month hoping to entice my wife into the multilayer co operative campaign like i did with Dungeonsiege 2 some years ago. But Silverfall seems to not quite have the same attraction as DS2, hence i am now doing the campaign alone! lol

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Quoting Werewindlefr,

reply 9

Remember the FUN AI vs competitive AIlecture from the CIV devs?
One of their most clever lines. Stardock, please don't forget to consider this: the AI needs to play to win, and nothing else. "AI personality" should never replace that; it should at most influence the direction the AI will take to win.

I mean, it's nice and all to have the world feel like it's living and that you're confronting other leaders with personalities and stuff, but it's first and foremost a game and it need challenge. And enemies which will create that challenge.

Please tell me they didn't give this lecture talking about Civ 5...

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Mystikmind

Join Date 06/2004

+20

Ok i have played 1.1 now and here is my first impression.... Don't like it, quit after about half an hour.

First up i noticed starting locations are booring and bland, restarting gives you more of the same, nice for multiplayer but not single player! Then i found myself quickly overwhealmed right at the beggining by the barbarian animals/soldiers. This is on 'normal' difficulty. Usually i am the kind of player that always sets barbarians to maximum like i do in the civ series but in those games i do get 'some' breathing space. I do not want to turn barbarians 'off' either, so that is that, the verdict is in and i don't like this new patch 1.1 due to barbarians too much at the start.

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Wintersong

Join Date 07/2006

+235

Quoting Werewindlefr,

reply 9

the AI needs to play to win, and nothing else.

I don't want the AI sitting idle and letting me trample it but neither I want "All the AIs are exactly the same and no matter which faction you give them all end being the same because they all follow the same ""optimized path to victory"" routine".

I like how Dregin hate Torians' guts and are more likely to attack them than to others in Gal Civ II. I want that stuff here too. I like some roleplaying in my enemies (which should mean "No Warlord Gandhi" in Civ V, right? I loved the webcomic about it). But that's not to say I don't want them to play to win just to play to win according to some internal rules that make it different from the AIs of the other factions. Verga in the Hiergamenon appears as some kind of brute so I would expect him and his faction to be warmongers, while I would expect Procipinee to focus more on a Spell of Making victory (and her armies be more dependant on magic support). Which shouldn't prevent Verga from playing switch and go for Diplomatic Victory if conquests becomes impossible for him and there are possibilities of others reaching Master Quest / Spell of Making Victory (by alliances with other warmongers to destroy the Questers/Spellslingers).

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I got swamped too.. but after a few auto save reloads and moving some troops round (and training even when you dont need to so you have a large stationary force in you cities) i seem to be ok now.

I think its good though, gone are the "im going to leave my city undefended and go a'venturing into the wilds" its one of those choices for your soveren.

Choice 1 - leave in capital to defend baddies

Choice 2 - adventure and get some xp

oh and Choice 3, bit of both to knock out some bandits before they grow to armies.

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Mystikmind

Join Date 06/2004

+20

Quoting Draconis123,

reply 17

I got swamped too.. but after a few auto save reloads and moving some troops round (and training even when you dont need to so you have a large stationary force in you cities) i seem to be ok now.

I think its good though, gone are the "im going to leave my city undefended and go a'venturing into the wilds" its one of those choices for your soveren.

Choice 1 - leave in capital to defend baddies

Choice 2 - adventure and get some xp

oh and Choice 3, bit of both to knock out some bandits before they grow to armies.

I used to be able to get flame dart pretty quick which i then used to clear all the barbarians, but in 1.1 i cannot see it available in the combat book level 1, so that is what is mainly behind this problem, oh and seems bows have been forbidden from the start as well just to make sure your almost completely helpless so the nice little barbarians can 'base rush' you at the start.

I just dropped the game difficulty to easy, and put the AI opponents on normal then started a new game. After several reloads i can report that i did manage to get a bit more interesting start - 2 farns, a marble mine and 1 tactical crystal! Played for five minutes, accepted an escort mission and an army of 4 spiders appeared, so i will restart this one from the beginning now. If you don't see me here again tonight, that will be a good sign!

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Mystikmind

Join Date 06/2004

+20

Ok played that game for a good while tonight.

It became apparant that i'm not making adequate progress at all, i'm all dissorganised, don't have any clear direction, and it looks like i am in a pretty horrible strategic location, so it is hopeless.

I think i am going to have to focus on learning to use the map editor, although i have tried many times already.... attempting to learn to use the map editor is like attempting to walk through a solid brick wall! you just keep bouncing off without having any impact on it or gaining any understanding of why your efforts are uncuccesful!!! lol

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Quoting Werewindlefr,

reply 9

the AI needs to play to win, and nothing else. "AI personality" should never replace that; it should at most influence the direction the AI will take to win.

I mean, it's nice and all to have the world feel like it's living and that you're confronting other leaders with personalities and stuff, but it's first and foremost a game and it need challenge. And enemies which will create that challenge.

Kiss my arse.. i bought elemental as an alternative to the crap firaxis shoveled out at us with the "AI plays to win" immersion breaking gimmicky Marketing crap. If i wanted to play a board game against other players I'd buy monopoly.. or Civ V. I want an Immersive strategy game that I can enjoy just playing. I buy games to be entertained not challenged by an AI who does gamey crap to try to win. Give me distinct AI leader personalities over leaders who are optimized to win anyday.

Which by the way went against everything SID himself laid out in what an AI should do.

Sid - AI should not act like another player. When you play another person, you expect tricky manuevers and clever play. But if the AI does that same behavior, the player believes that it's either dumb or cheating and it leads to a loss of the suspension of disbelief. (paraphrased cause he rambles alot in his speeches)

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Alstein

Join Date 07/2004

+55

There should be a choice between a Playing to Win AI and an Immersive AI, or maybe a slider.

An Immersive AI I'm ok with getting some bonuses to make up for the limitations of RP-ing, a PTW AI should not get bonuses.

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A game called AI War has dozens of AI 'personalities', maybe its an idea to have a choice about what type of AI you want the other nations to have in the future versions of the game. Like a turtling AI, steamrolling AI, tech focussed AI, you name it. Not just a general difficulty setting.

On the other hand, the AI in GalCiv 2 received lots of praise, so I am sure Elemental's will get better as well.

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I would be so happy to have an AI that actually beat me. But it seems no bonus can big enough

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I agree on everything the op wrote.

Overall 1.1 is the first step in the right direction, but still a lot to go.

So, basic Magic system: fixed

Still open:

- general balance (a little bit better now but still overall totally off)

- revamp adventure and diplomatic tech tree (either useless or "un-fun behavior")

- AI! AI!! AI!!!

- Tactical Combat as a whole!!!!! (starting from the unit design possibilities, combat abilities, spells affecting combat - general more stuff to play around with. More depth to it)

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