The coming 1.1 patch

By on November 11, 2010 9:02:18 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Derek Paxton

Join Date 03/2003
+173
  We have been hard at work on the 1.1 patch.  Today we built an internal alpha which went to our testers and they began reporting issues, bugs, etc.  Our feature list isn't completely implemented yet, there are still a few things to checkin but I expect that they will be all in by Monday.  The team has been told to focus on bug fixes and polish between now and next Thursday (11/18/2010) which we are targeting as the date for the release of the public 1.1 beta.
  What is coming?
  Toby already posted about the two major changes coming in 1.1.  Global Mana and Population as a resource (in that improvements consume population).  Global mana is a significant change to the magic side of the game, and all the spells have been adjusted to account for it.  Population to improvements is a significant change to the economic side of the game, forcing players to balance their population between economic, production and military goals.
  There are a lot of UI improvements, one of my favorites is the city idle popup.  You now get warned when a city has nothing let in its queue, and you have the opportunity to jump right to it.
  But 1.1 also includes a rebalancing of all the stats, combat, equipment and creatures.  The goal here is to visit all the core stats, baseline them and make sure the numbers are reasonable.  Toby has been working on it and I don't envy him, its a herculian task and it won't be perfect right out of the gate but it will be a step in the right direction and we will be looking for opportunities to make it even better.
  One detail part of the rebalance is that we had to review what all the stats did.  This is was they do in the current version of Elemental:
Strength- Every point of strength over 10 gives +10% to damage.
Dexterity- Every point of dexterity over 10 gives +10% to your armors absorption (aka:defense).
Constitution- Constitution is added to your max hit points.
Intellect- Intelligence is used by various spells to adjust damage/effects.
Wisdom- Wisdom was kind of a non-used stat but in some places Essence was referred to as wisdom, Essence increased your max MP.
Charisma- Charisma is used to reduce the cost of recruiting NPC's (champions).  Charisma didn't do anything for champions.
  In 1.1 they have been changed to the following:
Strength- Modifies damage
Dexterity- Modifies dodge
Constitution- Modifies hit points
Intelligence- Modifies spell resistance, boosts some spells, required for Champions to cast some spells
Charisma- Sovereigns Charisma modifies Champion recruit costs.  Champions and the Sovereign give a prestige boost to the city they are in.
  That leaves us with the following formulas:
Attack (which is damage) = Weapon Attack + ((Strength - 10)/2)
Defense (which is damage absorb) = Armor Defense
Accuracy = 15 + (Level * 2)
Dodge = Dexterity / 2
Hit Points = 10 + ( (Constitution / 5) * (2 * Level) )
Spell Resistance = Intelligence / 2
Prestige Boost in City = Charisma / 5
  Elemental uses opposing roles for combat.  So if I have 23 Accuracy (I'm 4th level) and you have 5 Dodge (you have a Dexterity of 10) then we both roll from 1 to our rating and the highest roll wins.  I get a random number from 1-23 and you get a random number from 1-5, meaning there is about a 87% chance I will hit you.  The numbers are strongly weighted in the attackers favor as we didn't want to have long strings of misses going back and forth. (in fact as I look at it now I think it may now be weighted enough, we may need to change accuracy to level * 3)
  The nice thing about this system is that it never becomes impossible to hit or damage anyone.  It may become unlikely, but its never a waste of your time, and no creature is ever not a threat.
  Strength modifies damage as it did before but its no longer such a huge impact.  We were having problems balancing weapons because a 15 attack weapon on a 40 strength guy is 45 attack.  Now that would be a 30 attack, still huge but workable.
  Dexterity used to add to your damage absorption.  Which is fairly non-intuitive for Dexterity and kept us from designing more specialized creatures.  We want some creatures to be easy to hit and hard to damage, and others to be hard to hit but easy to damage, to makes them more or less difficult against different parties and attackers.  It gives us design room to grow into.
  Constitution now modifies hit points per level.  But the most important part is that hit points are now modified per level!  As your sovereign and champions levels up they will gain hit points, no more glass cannons.  We have played with a few numbers to get a progression that values level and the players constitution reasonably, but all the above formula's might be tweaked based on playtest feedback.
  Wisdom is gone now.  There are now 5 base stats (as there are 5 factions on each side, 5 tech tree branches, etc) and Intelligence is the "magic" stat.  We have to balance this stat a bit differently than most games because every sovereign is a caster but we don't want to make it isn't worth putting points in other stats.  We also use it as a limiter for what spells champions can cast, but your sovereign's don't have the restriction.
  Charisma is our non-combat stat.  We really wanted to allow players to build sovereigns that were never planned for combat.  They stay at home.  Charisma is a great stat for that.  The city your sovereign is in will get increased prestige, you can recruit cheaper champions (and let them fight your wars for you) and if you recruit high charisma champions you can use those in your cities to push prestige even higher.
  So why do we focus on stat adjustments?  It certainly isn't the sexiest part of the game, and many players will play without even noticing they changed.  From a code perspective removing a stat is harder than adding a stat (since you have to get everything that references it) so it's a lot of work without much direct payoff.
  The reason is that it's where you have to begin to balance anything after.  In order to balance the armor we have to know what the stats effect on armor is (formerly +10% per point of dex over 10, now no effect on armor).  In order to balance weapons we have to know strengths exact effect, previously we couldn't create high attack weapons because strength had such a huge impact that it was exponential.  Making strength more linear allows us to make weapons more varied.  Now that we have accuracy and dodge in we can create big weapons with high damage but penalties to hit, or small weapons with bonuses to hit or speed, but low damage.  We have more range to work with.
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November 13, 2010 12:08:21 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting cephalo,
All this stuff sounds like an enormous improvement. I do still have concerns about the I go You go combat. Especially in range combat, you have a situation where the team that can attack first can greatly hamper their opponents ability to retaliate, simply because they went first. I would very much like to see an initiative system, so that every battle doesn't play out like an ambush.

I do not understand. Does not Combat Speed already work as "initiative"? Fastest folks go first, slowest folks go last, repeat?

I'm green as they come in Elemental, but I love the concept of the game, and have high hopes for its future, when there's enough substance to keep my interest for more than an afternoon.

 

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November 13, 2010 12:28:16 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting harpo99999,
nikmesh & lord xia, I also want the weight of the armours to effect the dodge stat as well ie
leather/padded minimal effect(-1 dodge),
chainmail more effect(-2dodge),
light plate (-3dodge),
medium plate(-4 dodge),
heavy plate (-5 dodge),
master plate being better designed/lighter (could have -4 dodge),
imbued master plate (-3dodge)

(these numbers are just suggestions to give an idea of the effect/choices wanted.

please add this effect for armours as it would help to force players to choose between higher dodge and higher defence

harpo

 

 

A better idea would a dex penalty, based on the type of armor, and the armor-wearer's strength, instead of a flat fiat rule.  Suggested this earlier, but no one reads my stuff .

 

That would force more choices I believe.

 

Overall, I like these  changes, but I think down the road with this stuff- these things will need to be added

 

a) Stats for non-heroes.  I really feel like each troop should have its own stats, with higher levels of training equalling better stats.

more uses for stats, but more passive special abilities that modify things in addition to the stat itself.

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November 13, 2010 1:33:37 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I REALLY like the sound of this.

I have but two questions, does Elemental now use the stats to calculate things like a Merchant's income? If not then can this feature be modded in? This is something I've been looking forward to since release.

Looking forward to next week

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November 13, 2010 1:38:41 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Essence points actually had a purpose at the begining of the game: it was a currency for really potent spells or abilities, something that could only be increased via leveling or maybe very rare items and that would be sacrificed to cast world-shattering spells. It should have stayed separate from intelligence and mana from the beginning; it should have been its own thing instead, with very situational (and yet gameplay-changing) use.

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November 13, 2010 2:06:48 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Werewindlefr,
Essence points actually had a purpose at the begining of the game: it was a currency for really potent spells or abilities, something that could only be increased via leveling or maybe very rare items and that would be sacrificed to cast world-shattering spells. It should have stayed separate from intelligence and mana from the beginning; it should have been its own thing instead, with very situational (and yet gameplay-changing) use.

Exactly!

I am disappointed in seeing such an interesting game mechanic removed. 

Most of the other changes look really good though,  especially the combat mechanics redesigns.

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November 13, 2010 3:35:30 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting db0,
This is very exciting stuff. I can't wait for 1.1 now.

 

Something I'd like to mention: One of the issues in games like this where you want to allow heroes to have a non-combat build (in this case: charisma), is that a build, implies experience points, and at this point, the only way we have for XP gain is via combat. To truly allow non-combat builds, we need to have a way to gain levels outside of combat. The obvious candidate is XP from quests. Something to consider.

You sir........have a very good point.

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November 13, 2010 3:57:05 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Good, maybe, but I don't think it's a very logical point. =P

I understand  "non-combat build"  as a farmer or miner.  Getting XP from quests is completely against staying at home farming or mining.
Rescueing princesses or sorting through bones on old battlefields does not make you a better farmer.

However, getting "real XP" from the staying at home bit is a balancing issue because you could level up your champs at home without any risk,
putting all the level up points into casting / fighting stats and effectively training "fighting champs" without every risking their hide in a battle.
That also has to be avoided.

The only real alternative is a skill system where  "staying at home farming or mining"  only increases said farming/mining skill
but not the general level of the champion - or only increases the normal level veeeery slowly.

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November 13, 2010 4:08:18 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting ,

Attack (which is damage) = Weapon Attack + ((Strength - 10)/2)
Defense (which is damage absorb) = Armor Defense
Accuracy = 15 + (Level * 2)
Dodge = Dexterity / 2
Hit Points = 10 + ( (Constitution / 5) * (2 * Level) )
Spell Resistance = Intelligence / 2
Prestige Boost in City = Charisma / 5

After looking a bit longer at the new formulaes i think that the low impact of the stats makes the RPG part of Elemental boring, because it makes only a small difference if i have a stat of 5 or 15.

The level scaling of the stats should be completly removed, because a character gets new stat points at every level, and the stats should have the following formulaes:

Attack (should be called Physical Damage) = Weapon Damage * Strength * 0.1
Defense (should be called Physical Resistance) = Armor value (which is substracted from the Damage)
Physical Accuracy = (50 * Dexterity * 0.1) % (Weapon Attack)
Mental Accuracy = (50 * Intelligence * 0.1) % (Spell Attack)
Hit Points = 30 * Constitution * 0.1
Mental Resistance = Armor value (which is substracted from the Damage)
Mental Damage = Spell Damage * Charisma * 0.1

At the character creation the Sovereign starts with a score of 10 in every stat and the player can reduce a stat to 5 or increase a stat to 15. At every level after the first the player can increase one stat by one point.

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November 13, 2010 6:32:35 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting db0,

Yep. Increased combat morale would fit charisma really well. Though it shouldn't stack if there are multiple heroes present in the battle, only the highest bonus should apply.
Or maybe morale should have an area of effect, or a unit limit. So that when you have a lot of units or they are too spread out, it would make sense to have more than one hero with them.
Yes, exactly;  If outside the 'range' of the best leader's CHA, a unit might benefit from the CHA of another leader in range.  Perhaps a CHA of 18 would give +3 bonus within 3 tiles of the leader figure, CHA 15 +2 within 2 tiles, 12 +1 within 1 tile or such.  Various formulas could be applied but the concept that leaders have a range of influence and only the highest CHA counts within its range would work.

 

Other leadership bonuses could be added (new abilities or based off CHA as well), perhaps a leader with the right skill (or high CHA, whatever) could give an action to another unit within his range for example.  This could be fun and make for a larger influence of commanders, besides their inherent personal combat prowess or casting ability.

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November 13, 2010 7:11:56 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting kenata,

Can you imagine if we told Brad in the two necroed threads on this page that combat wouldn't be RTS, and that we'd be dealing with army sizes in the double digits at the absolute max rather then thousands?
12 units of 12 troops for each of the two sides equals 144 troops which is triple digits. From my perspective, 100 troops v 10,000 troops is irrelevant as long as the combat is fun and the encounters are strategically meaningful. I have read a lot of posts since release about this idea of epic scale and troops in the thousands, but have yet to be convinced that this would add anything to the fun or meaningfulness of combat. I mean one could simply multiply all the counts by 100 and result in battle counts in the ten thousand range, but you would ultimately end up with the same feel out of combat. Perhaps one would rather move 1,000 units around a tactical map the size of the world map, yet this would be tedious and simply decrease the overall fun of the experience. My stance on combat has not changed since release, and is fairly simple. I believe that every unit should be capable of more than two actions, being attack and move. We should ask why a game like shining force or FFT has such gripping tactical combat, even though only a handful of units per battle. The answer is fairly obvious, which is each unit is capable of many different actions which adds complexity and depth to their combat model. This is the simple reason why a summoned unit is simply more fun and more powerful in tactical combat. A fire giant has something like 5-6 actions it can perform, giving it incredible tactical depth.

 

I think you missed my point.

People complaining about essence are complaining about a concept. Not an actual mechanic. Like this. Essence never worked that way in the release version of the game, and it's usefulness was gradually stripped down in every major beta release. The specific complaint I responded to was someone saying "can you imagine if in that old forum thread, we told Brad how it'd end up?"

Which is why I said what I did. Originally tactical combat was supposed to be realtime, with huge scale. So saying that essence differs from the forum thread enough that it's worth scrapping outright now doesn't say much, since it's another in a long list of things that are totally different from where we started.

 

At this point, "essence" is a loaded word for something that doesn't really exist in 1.09 either. All they've done in 1.1 is made it official.

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November 13, 2010 7:15:18 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Wizard1200,

The level scaling of the stats should be completly removed, because a character gets new stat points at every level, and the stats should have the following formulaes:

Attack (should be called Physical Damage) = Weapon Damage * Strength * 0.1
Defense (should be called Physical Resistance) = Armor value (which is substracted from the Damage)
Physical Accuracy = (50 * Dexterity * 0.1) % (Weapon Attack)
Mental Accuracy = (50 * Intelligence * 0.1) % (Spell Attack)
Hit Points = 30 * Constitution * 0.1
Mental Resistance = Armor value (which is substracted from the Damage)
Mental Damage = Spell Damage * Charisma * 0.1

At the character creation the Sovereign starts with a score of 10 in every stat and the player can reduce a stat to 5 or increase a stat to 15. At every level after the first the player can increase one stat by one point.

Hit Points = 30 * Constitution * 0.1 can be rewritten to:

3 * Constitution

That's a slightly larger version of what we have in 1.09, and HP totals on champions are FAR too small as the game goes on (unless you invest no points in anything else). The new version actually gives you more per point once you gain a few levels, because of the level factor. It goes up in value to keep up with the growing HP of squads, which get bigger as the game goes on.

The new stats overall are a drastic improvement.

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November 13, 2010 8:01:05 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Great!..can't wait for v1.1!

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November 13, 2010 8:28:39 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Tridus,

Hit Points = 30 * Constitution * 0.1 can be rewritten to:

3 * Constitution

That's a slightly larger version of what we have in 1.09, and HP totals on champions are FAR too small as the game goes on (unless you invest no points in anything else). The new version actually gives you more per point once you gain a few levels, because of the level factor. It goes up in value to keep up with the growing HP of squads, which get bigger as the game goes on.

The new stats overall are a drastic improvement.

Very true, it's a massive improvement from what we currently have.

Though I was comparing some stuff and a vetern unit starts with 10 HP and gains 6 HP per lev up. That means that any veteran unit is the equivalent of a 15 con hero in terms of Hit points. I don't recall what an elite units starting HP total or HP gain is, but it's reasonable to guess they have 13-15 HP and gain 7-9 per level. With that kind of HP scaling that puts elite units very close to either a 20-25 con hero, with the 25 con just about winning with 10 HP per lev up.

Lets say you wanted to create a hero and rush for 25 con which can be achived at level 5:-

Lev 1 CON start @ 15 with 16 HP
Lev 2 CON now 18 = 23.3 HP (GAIN PER LEV UP 7.2)
Lev 3 CON now 21 = 31.7 HP (GAIN PER LEV UP 8.4)
Lev 4 CON now 24 = 41.3 HP (GAIN PER LEV UP 9.6)
Lev 5 CON now 25 = 51.3 HP (GAIN PER LEV UP 10)

Now compare a 25 con hero to an elite unit at level 5. I didn't know the HP details of an elite unit for certain so I've included the information for elite units with 13 and 15 starting HP.

ELITE UNIT @ LEV 5 (With 13 Start HP and 7 per lev up) = 41
ELITE UNIT @ LEV 5 (With 15 Start HP and 9 per lev up) = 51

Now at best a 25 Con hero wins by just 10 HP and in the worst case sceanrio they are equal with 51 HP each. I don't know about you lot, but this is just a depressing bit of news to me. A massive point allocation to con and a hero doesn't have even have near 50% more HP then an elite unit? Elite units to the best of my knowledge only take a little more time to make and don't cost additional resources even, whereas a hero must spend a large sum of valuable stat points........this hardly seems fair. It gets even worse when you consider that these elite units will probably be in a party with each unit within possessing HP nearly equal to a heroes own...

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November 13, 2010 9:20:36 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I will be very interested to see how the Mana maintenance cost factors in to both, imbued hero's (assuming one is applied) and Summons, many/most of whom have their own mana pools, albeit small ones, (if any is applied to additional mana available based on the enchantment slot mana increases)

I really hope that mana maintenance costs do not impact, to heavily, the players ability to have LOTS of Magic throwers, especially in a game called "ELEMENTAL: WAR of MAGIC"

This assumes of course that Brad's new AI will use Magic much more aggressively and effectively, moving forward, than it does currently.

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November 13, 2010 9:33:46 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Some champions have special attacks that currently take mana but aren't really magic. I wonder if this still makes sense under a global mana system? They could instead cost the user's HP, or take longer to charge.

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November 13, 2010 9:44:02 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Tridus,

Hit Points = 30 * Constitution * 0.1 can be rewritten to:

3 * Constitution

That's a slightly larger version of what we have in 1.09, and HP totals on champions are FAR too small as the game goes on (unless you invest no points in anything else). The new version actually gives you more per point once you gain a few levels, because of the level factor. It goes up in value to keep up with the growing HP of squads, which get bigger as the game goes on.

The new stats overall are a drastic improvement.

You are right. The suggested HP were perhaps a bit too low, but the main reason of my post was that i think the stats in 1.1 have only a very small impact on the gameplay and that makes the RPG part of Elemental boring.

Quoting nikmesh,

Lets say you wanted to create a hero and rush for 25 con which can be achived at level 5:-

Lev 1 CON start @ 15 with 16 HP
Lev 2 CON now 18 = 23.3 HP (GAIN PER LEV UP 7.2)
Lev 3 CON now 21 = 31.7 HP (GAIN PER LEV UP 8.4)
Lev 4 CON now 24 = 41.3 HP (GAIN PER LEV UP 9.6)
Lev 5 CON now 25 = 51.3 HP (GAIN PER LEV UP 10)

Now compare a 25 con hero to an elite unit at level 5. I didn't know the HP details of an elite unit for certain so I've included the information for elite units with 13 and 15 starting HP.

ELITE UNIT @ LEV 5 (With 13 Start HP and 7 per lev up) = 41
ELITE UNIT @ LEV 5 (With 15 Start HP and 9 per lev up) = 51

Now at best a 25 Con hero wins by just 10 HP and in the worst case sceanrio they are equal with 51 HP each. I don't know about you lot, but this is just a depressing bit of news to me. A massive point allocation to con and a hero doesn't have even have near 50% more HP then an elite unit? Elite units to the best of my knowledge only take a little more time to make and don't cost additional resources even, whereas a hero must spend a large sum of valuable stat points........this hardly seems fair. It gets even worse when you consider that these elite units will probably be in a party with each unit within possessing HP nearly equal to a heroes own...

With my suggested HP formulae a Con 25 hero would have 75 HP (30 * 2.5).

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November 13, 2010 11:59:58 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting nikmesh,

Though I was comparing some stuff and a vetern unit starts with 10 HP and gains 6 HP per lev up. That means that any veteran unit is the equivalent of a 15 con hero in terms of Hit points. I don't recall what an elite units starting HP total or HP gain is, but it's reasonable to guess they have 13-15 HP and gain 7-9 per level. With that kind of HP scaling that puts elite units very close to either a 20-25 con hero, with the 25 con just about winning with 10 HP per lev up.

Lets say you wanted to create a hero and rush for 25 con which can be achived at level 5:-

Lev 1 CON start @ 15 with 16 HP
Lev 2 CON now 18 = 23.3 HP (GAIN PER LEV UP 7.2)
Lev 3 CON now 21 = 31.7 HP (GAIN PER LEV UP 8.4)
Lev 4 CON now 24 = 41.3 HP (GAIN PER LEV UP 9.6)
Lev 5 CON now 25 = 51.3 HP (GAIN PER LEV UP 10)

Now compare a 25 con hero to an elite unit at level 5. I didn't know the HP details of an elite unit for certain so I've included the information for elite units with 13 and 15 starting HP.

ELITE UNIT @ LEV 5 (With 13 Start HP and 7 per lev up) = 41
ELITE UNIT @ LEV 5 (With 15 Start HP and 9 per lev up) = 51

Now at best a 25 Con hero wins by just 10 HP and in the worst case sceanrio they are equal with 51 HP each. I don't know about you lot, but this is just a depressing bit of news to me. A massive point allocation to con and a hero doesn't have even have near 50% more HP then an elite unit? Elite units to the best of my knowledge only take a little more time to make and don't cost additional resources even, whereas a hero must spend a large sum of valuable stat points........this hardly seems fair. It gets even worse when you consider that these elite units will probably be in a party with each unit within possessing HP nearly equal to a heroes own...

Based on what was said in an earlier post, standard units will be treated as if they have a 10 in all the stats. So the elite unit HP calculation may also be changing in 1.1 Going with these numbers, I'll agree it doesn't look great.

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November 13, 2010 12:04:17 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Wizard1200,

You are right. The suggested HP were perhaps a bit too low, but the main reason of my post was that i think the stats in 1.1 have only a very small impact on the gameplay and that makes the RPG part of Elemental boring.

There's few RPG games where some stats had such drastic impacts as something like Strength does in Elemental 1.09. In something like D&D, a unit with 20 strength gets a higher strength bonus then a unit with 10 strength. It doesn't DOUBLE the damage of any weapon they pick up. But it does here. There's no way to balance that in any kind of coherent way.

With my suggested HP formulae a Con 25 hero would have 75 HP (30 * 2.5).

With the 1.1 formula, a  hero with 25 CON at level 10 would have 110 HP. Just saying.

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November 13, 2010 12:35:49 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Really improved over the original lame system. Particularly like splitting up dodging & damage absorption and after the clarification it seems the roll for damage absorption (not dodging) will not be linear.

But I do agree with what the others have said 

(a) Dodging/Dex seems to be not worth it.

It is true that dodging is 100% avoidance, but as someone argued, if you have 100 units, with 75% absorption, you still on average will have 100 units just 25% damaged, while 100 units with 75% dodge, you will have 75 units with 100% health, the former is preferred.

As many have suggested should probably up dodging a *bit* more, though I understand why developers want to avoid long overdrawn battles 


(b)I wish there was some other way to make champions diff beyond just INT affects spells they could cast and damage (for some spells).

I understand imbuing champions will have a mana maintance cost but I still think it's a no brainer to imbue as many as possible (unless costs are high and/or mana pool low).

I don't like the idea of imbuing a high INT but level 1 champion and suddenly he can toss spells as powerful as the soveriegn (did i see somewhere someone saying soverigns can cast any spell regardless of INT??? hmm odd).

Level of champion should come into play somehow to determine how good a spell caster the champion in... could be spells that could be cast, mana that could be used per turn, efficiency of channelling (spell costs 10 mana, but if cast by champion costs 100%), effectiveness of spell etc..

 

(c) HP increase to champion per level helps.. but still not good enough...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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November 13, 2010 12:41:28 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting nikisknight,
Some champions have special attacks that currently take mana but aren't really magic. I wonder if this still makes sense under a global mana system? They could instead cost the user's HP, or take longer to charge.

I think it has being stated special attacks have a "Cool down" period.. which sounds like they can use the ability every x turns maximum...

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November 13, 2010 1:06:28 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Kestral2040,
some quick feedback:
 
 
Yes.  Essence as a stat is gone, as a concept it still the conduit for which mana flows from a channeler into a champion so they can cast spells.  The way this is represented in game balance is that imbued champions (those with essence) have a mana maint cost you must pay for them every turn.  Int is the new all purpose casting stat, it WILL scale some (but not all) spells, along with being a pre-req for non-Sovereign units to cast a spell and is the basis for your magic resist.  

Interesting so sovereigns can always cast any spell regardless of INT? I appreciate you want to differentiate between sovereign and imbued championsbut if INT doesn't affect spells sovereigns can cast, why would someone ever put points into that for the sovereign? Spell resistance only doesn't cut it.  Maybe INT should affect mana pool? 

I suppose offsprings can also cast spells limited to INT ?

Incidentally how mana is generated beyond buildings is the part of the game that is most hazy to me so far. How is "base" Mana pool calculated? I hope the choices you make designing the sovereign at the start should heavily influence this. 

EWOM is slowly moving towards MOM level of "fun", but one area where 1.1 seems to be moving backwards is how fun it is in MOM to customize your wizard which has huge effects on how you play. Right now i understand you don't even get to choose what spell books, but it's all in research, so starting choice seems to matter little.

Spell hit is the same as melee hit calculation wise as your hit scales with your level, not any one stat.  However, we can still modify the hit % of particular spells by putting accuracy mods on the spells themselves.

Hmm Level vs Stat.. My preference is for level to predominate mostly , experienced champions who are not as talented (average stat) should be better than green inexperienced talented champions though Stat should have some influence. INT affecting spells you can cast is reasonable , and follows ADND norms, while combat accuracy should indeed be more level based with stat modifers. 

Come to think of it, you seem to be following ADND norms closely which is nice, since most TBS games like MOM, AOW don't have both stat and level so there is no precedent. 

 

Trained units do have an int and dex stat, it is currently the default for all units (of 10).  So that can be used for their dodge and resist, if we find we want more granularity than that for trained units we will address it later, for now it is basically a bonus you will get of better dodging and resisting with your champions and Sov.

Nice.. thinking ahead...So we could make units that are more magic resistant etc..

 


 
This was probably my highest concern when I first started in this position from extensive playing of our previous versions and I can assure you its being addressed.  If you want to know the nitty gritty of it, we have a hard cap on your roll (for damage and damage mitigation only) of 50% of the value.  PLUS we square the stat value, then roll and take the square root, which will give you an average roll closer to the right end of the spectrum (I forget the exact number that will be the average, but it will be closer to 75%).  We could do this because we pulled accuracy out of the damage roll, thus we still have the concept of missing or dodging or critical failure modeled, its just not part of damage mitigation.  End result: damage when attacking with the same guys over and over should be more consistent but still varied.

Okay I couldn't follow this. But what it sounds like is while dodging/accuracy is linear, damage that is done will have a more normalized distribution..

My understanding is that the idea here is that attacks are far more likely to hit despite dodging.

But damage is likely to be consistent, so high level champions are unlikely to cause zero damage.

So high level champions are almost likely to hit low level units and the damage they do will be consistent which is good..

Low level units have a decent chance of hitting high level champions (depending on how good at dodging champions are), but even if they do hit, damage is unlikely to be high...

 

Sounds good.

 

 

 

 

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November 13, 2010 1:13:59 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Tridus,

There's few RPG games where some stats had such drastic impacts as something like Strength does in Elemental 1.09. In something like D&D, a unit with 20 strength gets a higher strength bonus then a unit with 10 strength. It doesn't DOUBLE the damage of any weapon they pick up. But it does here. There's no way to balance that in any kind of coherent way.

Hmmm, in D&D 3.0 or 3.5 a Longsword inflicts 1 - 8 points of damage. With a strength of 10 a character gets 0 points of bonus damage and with a strength of 20 a character gets 5 points of bonus damage. The average damage of the Longsword is increased from 4.5 to 9.5.

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November 13, 2010 1:49:06 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

A straight comparison to D&D rules is just mudding up the waters because in D&D the chance to hit at all (and therefore the actual damage) heavily depends on the character level and class.

A lvl 11 fighter actually has twice the chance to hit AC -1 than a lvl 1 fighter or a lvl 10 caster.

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November 13, 2010 3:02:50 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Tridus,


Which is why I said what I did. Originally tactical combat was supposed to be realtime, with huge scale. So saying that essence differs from the forum thread enough that it's worth scrapping outright now doesn't say much, since it's another in a long list of things that are totally different from where we started.

 

At this point, "essence" is a loaded word for something that doesn't really exist in 1.09 either. All they've done in 1.1 is made it official.

However, while you suggest that another poster missed your point, I think you are missing mine.  Comparing Essence as a game mechanic to a transition from RTS to turn-based or decreasing units is Apples-to-Oranges.  Essence was fundemental to the entire LORE of E:WoM as reflected in the first novel, throughout these threads over months, etc.  And while I readily admit to your points with respect to Essence continually being dumbed-down to apparent uselessness, many of us beta testers (including you, I believe), NEVER thought that was the correct path to follow.  I still stand by my relatively extreme comparison however, taking Essence away from E:WoM is like taking properties out of Monopoly.  Doesn't mean it won't be a good game, but you've changed a relvant design concept that was originally foundational.

 

 

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November 13, 2010 3:08:37 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting luketan,


Interesting so sovereigns can always cast any spell regardless of INT? I appreciate you want to differentiate between sovereign and imbued championsbut if INT doesn't affect spells sovereigns can cast, why would someone ever put points into that for the sovereign? Spell resistance only doesn't cut it.  Maybe INT should affect mana pool? 

I suppose offsprings can also cast spells limited to INT ?

Incidentally how mana is generated beyond buildings is the part of the game that is most hazy to me so far. How is "base" Mana pool calculated? I hope the choices you make designing the sovereign at the start should heavily influence this. 

 

Idea's that come to mind to further enhance the role of INT are to make the stat that determines what your able to caste as a magic user. Basicly to caste a spell you need to possess INT equal to the spells casting cost. To be honest this is an idea that I came up with after reading your post, haven't really thought about it in great detail....

I hope that SD will change alot of the perks, specifically adding ones that would be game impacting to the magic you caste. Personally I think the starting perks +1 tec, 1+ arcane and 2 food are probably some of the most feeble starting perks starting perks ever. Honestly, there value doesn't go beyond the first period of the early game.

Magic perks that would actually be useful...

-Boost magic attacks

-Boost Summons

-Boost enchantments

-Boost magical dispels

-Enhanced magic defense

-Sov genarates X amount of mana that is added to the poll each turn

 

Quoting luketan,

EWOM is slowly moving towards MOM level of "fun", but one area where 1.1 seems to be moving backwards is how fun it is in MOM to customize your wizard which has huge effects on how you play. Right now i understand you don't even get to choose what spell books, but it's all in research, so starting choice seems to matter little.

 



I understand what you mean by the spell books thing; Wizerd creation was one of the most important gameplay choices you made as it affected your whole play style. However I see where SD are going with this, that is because it is impossible to predict what elemental shards you might be able to grab you instead get free rein to make spell school decison on the fly while playing the game. That way if your able to fully exploit any shards you might have aquired.

Now, if they broke down the spell school research tree like this....

Fire    --> Lev 1 --> lev 2 --> lev 3 --> lev 4 --> lev 5 --> lev 6 --> lev 7 --> lev 8 --> lev 9 --> lev 10

Water --> Lev 1 --> lev 2 --> lev 3 --> lev 4 --> lev 5 --> lev 6 --> lev 7 --> lev 8 --> lev 9 --> lev 10

Earth  --> Lev 1 --> lev 2 --> lev 3 --> lev 4 --> lev 5 --> lev 6 --> lev 7 --> lev 8 --> lev 9 --> lev 10

Air     --> Lev 1 --> lev 2 --> lev 3 --> lev 4 --> lev 5 --> lev 6 --> lev 7 --> lev 8 --> lev 9 --> lev 10

Enchant --> Lev 1 --> lev 2 --> lev 3 --> lev 4 --> lev 5 --> lev 6 --> lev 7 --> lev 8 --> lev 9 --> lev 10

With this kind of setup players are free to grab spells they want from a perticular tree. If the research trend remains true to the way it is in most of my games then spell research begins to slow around level 7 and becomes snail-like in speed at lev 9 & 10. That would mean it wouldn't be such a big deal to get low level spells from just about any tree and mid level spells would also be possible. But when it concerns the high levels thats probably where it would be wise to focus all the remaining research in that perticular branch.

 

 




 

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