Begatting resources

By on October 28, 2010 1:10:17 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Frogboy

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Today we’re talking about different ways we can streamline the creation of resources. A long time ago, we wanted to put in a system where I could mine ore which could be turned into ingots  and so on. Basically, one resource being turned into another resource.

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October 28, 2010 1:31:30 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Taking that statement a little out of context...  The system is rather streamlined, you mine, you use, you get.  In context though...

It would naturally make sense to keep the resources we already have.  The way population works (Read: Is going to work in 1.1,) wouldn't change, because population as a resource could be considered an extremely versatile resource.

For the distribution of Materials, there are lots of different ways you could do it in context with your statement.

First, you have the 'Architect' structure, and its appointed specialist.  This building would allow the creation of certain higher-level buildings, and produce, (Possibly only assist,) in turning the materials into 'Building Materials.'

Then, we have the 'Hunting Lodge' structure and his specialist.  This building would take Materials and turn them into basic 'Weapon Materials.'  I.E., the stuff you need for Staves, Spears, Bows and the like.  Basically, it would consist of making all of your low-tier gear.

Easy one for Metal is the Blacksmith.  Could even divide that down into Armor smith and Weapon smith.  The list goes on.

Edit:  Wouldn't this heavily affect game-pacing though?  On the movement side of things, it's already slow.  Couldn't this potentially also do the same thing to City-Building and Army-building?  I don't think it's a bad idea.  Honestly, less simplification the better imo, but I can't help but worry.

With the new specialists system though, it seems like a great idea to help get those little buggers used up somehow.

EditEdit:  You know what, scratch that.  I'm remembering my current game where I've got like 4K Materials and can build 12-Unit Teams of guys in a single turn.

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October 28, 2010 1:33:26 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

What-what? Could this mean that the old Camp 1 crowd might get a few bones thrown to us during the post-launch rework?

Adding refined resources to the mix could go along way towards making trade a more interesting and important part of the game. It's also one of those relatively 'simple' things that could lead to fun complexity when it's linked to things like quests and dowries for the dynasty system. Champions with improvable resource-based special abilities could also be good fun--a Smith with hundreds of turns at the forge could help a city make Valyrian steel quickly and/or in large amounts.

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October 28, 2010 1:38:33 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting ,

Today we’re talking about different ways we can streamline the creation of resources. A long time ago, we wanted to put in a system where I could mine ore which could be turned into ingots  and so on. Basically, one resource being turned into another resource.

I think if a player has only the option to turn one resource into one other resource such system makes a game only more complicated, but not more interesting. If a player could turn one resource into different resources it would be interesting.

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October 28, 2010 1:42:01 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I hate to be "that jerk", but unless you come up with a *really cool way* to make that system not feel like extra work...it's only going to frustrate.

I mean, it's only going to be valuable if I can turn one resource into atleast 2  options, right? (say, iron ore into iron sheets or iron ingots). But then what happens if I want to make that *insert special item here* that requires iron sheets AND crystal powder? now I have to manage two seperate systems to get what I want? Still good yes, but that's just how it begins to build into something....I'd almost want to hire a champion just so he/she could manage that for me!

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October 28, 2010 1:46:33 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting markmenm,
I hate to be "that jerk", but unless you come up with a *really cool way* to make that system not feel like extra work...it's only going to frustrate.

I mean, it's only going to be valuable if I can turn one resource into atleast 2  options, right? (say, iron ore into iron sheets or iron ingots). But then what happens if I want to make that *insert special item here* that requires iron sheets AND crystal powder? now I have to manage two seperate systems to get what I want? Still good yes, but that's just how it begins to build into something....I'd almost want to hire a champion just so he/she could manage that for me!

My thinking is that it would basically be done for you.  If you have the necessary building(s), and the necessary specialist(s), then every turn that the input resources are available, they produce the output resources.

Edit: Meaning, the only things you have to manage are specialists, and how to use the resulting resources.

Edit2:  I think the real question here is how far do we want this to go?  I know I pitched the idea of the Architect building, but in hindsight, it seems bland.  I feel like that's the danger with a lot of the ideas in this thought train.  So how do we keep it fresh and interesting for the players?

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October 28, 2010 1:51:10 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

And then perhaps we could RAID Caravan's (anonymously of course) to get raw materials not yet available to our Kingdom/Empire. That would be very interesting.

The way it would/could work might be, I take a couple Diplo techs, have a chat with my nearest neighbor and he offers Xmentium for Lumber. Ding Ding. I need Xmentuim but can't spare any of my current lumber supply.

Well, being a rather shrewd leader, I now know my neighbor has some so must be Mining Xmentium and has to be Caravan-ing the raw material  back to his Capital City for refining.

So I send out Scouts to covertly check on the caravan routes of my neighbor and when I find a Caravan with Xmentium in it (mouse over for Caravans content list) my Scout reports back. Now to remain anonymous while doing the dirty deed I hire/procure some Highwaymen/Ruffians or monsters to abscond with said Caravan and it's good.

The use of Highwaymen/Ruffians gets reported back the neighbor as such and his only recourse is to protect that Carvan route from said robber types. With his protection in place, if it happens at all, I must then find another supply line to pilfer or hope to find a raw supply to mine for my own.

Ok, a pipe dream extraordinaire, but hey, as GW stated, if Camp 1 is to see some love, let's do it up right, right...

 

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October 28, 2010 1:56:37 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting John_Hughes,
And then perhaps we could RAID Caravan's (anonymously of course) to get raw materials not yet available to our Kingdom/Empire. That would be very interesting.

The way it would/could work might be, I take a couple Diplo techs, have a chat with my nearest neighbor and he offers Xmentium for Lumber. Ding Ding. I need Xmentuim but can't spare any of my current lumber supply.

Well, being a rather shrewd leader, I now know my neighbor has some so must be Mining Xmentium and has to be Caravan-ing the raw material  back to his Capital City for refining.

So I send out Scouts to covertly check on the caravan routes of my neighbor and when I find a Caravan with Xmentium in it (mouse over for Caravans content list) my Scout reports back. Now to remain anonymous while doing the dirty deed I hire/procure some Highwaymen/Ruffians or monsters to abscond with said Caravan and it's good.

The use of Highwaymen/Ruffians gets reported back the neighbor as such and his only recourse is to protect that Carvan route from said robber types. With his protection in place, if it happens at all, I must then find another supply line to pilfer or hope to find a raw supply to mine for my own.

Ok, a pipe dream extraordinaire, but hey, as GW stated, if Camp 1 is to see some love, let's do it up right, right...


 

Your post is kind of off-topic, but it brings an interesting question to mind.

What happens to resources on the outskirts of your Realm that need such refining?  In the above example, Xmentium is being mined waaaaay off at city Q, while Cities A, B, and C, on the other end of your Realm, are the only cities both large enough and with the facilities/specialists capable of refining said resource.  Up until this point, the transportation of resources between cities has been abstracted.  Does that mean, with the proposed system of Refining resources, that we have to do away with that abstraction, therefore also doing away with the Global Resource pool in some cases?

Edited for typo's.

Edit Again:  I mean, -obviously- it doesn't mean we have to do away with the abstraction, but would that be the best way to do this, gameplay-wise, is what I'm asking.

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October 28, 2010 2:01:19 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I like the idea of using resources to create other resources. I think it could add a lot of depth into the game, especially if it creates new professions/buildings which in turn help to make more specialised cities. This could also affect the production rates and strength of weapons, amour, buildings, etc. 

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October 28, 2010 2:02:05 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Do you mean like in The Settlers series? While the concept itself is not overly complex, combining it with a game where there are so many different concepts already in play is not a good idea. I would much prefer some sort of barter system through a market so if you need iron it will cost you a lot of another resource you have in abundance.

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October 28, 2010 2:02:29 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Not sure I'm on track with the post, but...

 

I'd sure like a Trading option to convert resources. Like in Settlers of Catan, I can envision this adding fun and variety: 

maybe once you create X building (Trade Center) you begin *possibly* attracting Traders who will convert some of your materials for a price--maybe gold, food, metal, etc. Yes, you can convert some materials into weapons with your own buildings (metal to swords) but Traders might exchange food with metal or gildar.  They are non-allied, so you don't have to reach out to your enemies every time for conversion, but they might be heavily influenced by:

race

stability of your city (number of times your city has been attacked/taken)

population of your city (not willing to visit your city if there are few people)

frequency of monsters in the area (if you don't keep your roads clear, Traders don't want to visit)

presence of higher prestige buildings (Pub, Inn?)

They might offer to sell you unique items upon occasion, and/or be motivators for quests (ah, if only you had 10 elementiums, I would gladly give you this +5 sword, and I know there is elementium near this city...).

 

I understand the tension the current system has that motivates you to talk with the other sovereigns about trade, and I like that.  Sometimes an enemy won't trade at any price (you just killed my son) or you haven't found an enemy with what you need.  It's more fun if I can find SOME way to get that element/metal I need/want even if it really costs me a lot.

 

FYI this makes me wonder about how resources are handled when you take another city or kill another sovereign--do you get their resources? I think you should...

 

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October 28, 2010 2:08:16 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Yes please.  I'm onboard.  But we need more core resources to start with.

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October 28, 2010 2:11:52 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Yeah, I think this is a great idea, in theory. To put it politely, I certainly don't agree with the posters that think the game is already too complex. But, it's hard to comment on a system when details are so vague. Could we possibly get a little more along the lines of what you all are thinking here?

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October 28, 2010 2:17:57 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Tim4fun,
Not sure I'm on track with the post, but...

 

I'd sure like a Trading option to convert resources. Like in Settlers of Catan, I can envision this adding fun and variety: 

maybe once you create X building (Trade Center) you begin *possibly* attracting Traders who will convert some of your materials for a price--maybe gold, food, metal, etc. Yes, you can convert some materials into weapons with your own buildings (metal to swords) but Traders might exchange food with metal or gildar.  They are non-allied, so you don't have to reach out to your enemies every time for conversion, but they might be heavily influenced by:

race

stability of your city (number of times your city has been attacked/taken)

population of your city (not willing to visit your city if there are few people)

frequency of monsters in the area (if you don't keep your roads clear, Traders don't want to visit)

presence of higher prestige buildings (Pub, Inn?)

 

My problem with this is it makes Traders into a resource...  One that you cannot actually manage under any circumstances, as it relies almost entirely on factors outside of your control.  Even if we narrow it down to Population and Prestige, it's still not in control enough.  There are only so many Prestige buildings in the game at all at present, 2 for Kingdoms and 1 for Empires, and then the Palace for both, but that's it.  Two for Empires as well if you count the statue of Kirin-Tor, but that's a wonder, only one may be produced anywhere in a single game.  And Population is a direct derivative of food.  Being able to trade for food is one thing, but you would -never- -ever- trade it away, especially since cities are going to start costing food to get off the ground now.  This means depending on the traders rates, you may not be able to get a resource you desperately need, simply because he wants food that you cannot spare or don't have.

While I don't think the independent resource trading is actually a bad idea, I do think that this particular method is.  It needs to be more manageable.


They might offer to sell you unique items upon occasion, and/or be motivators for quests (ah, if only you had 10 elementiums, I would gladly give you this +5 sword, and I know there is elementium near this city...).

I understand the tension the current system has that motivates you to talk with the other sovereigns about trade, and I like that.  Sometimes an enemy won't trade at any price (you just killed my son) or you haven't found an enemy with what you need.  It's more fun if I can find SOME way to get that element/metal I need/want even if it really costs me a lot.

 
FYI this makes me wonder about how resources are handled when you take another city or kill another sovereign--do you get their resources? I think you should...

Assuming it were in place, I'd have to say yes and no.  In real-life history, tactically important resource stockpiles were raided for whatever the invader needed at the time; food, weapons, armor, clothing, horses, and then the rest was destroyed, or set loose in the case of horses.  I would imagine it would work on a plunder system, where you receive a small amount of the oppositions resources.  The problem with this idea is, in a Global Resource Pool, that means you're taking whatever it is directly from your enemies stockpiles.  With the current abstracted system, that means that, in reality, you're taking small amounts from a stockpile in every one of their cities, despite only having conquered one.

Edit:  I dunno why the HTML tag refused to work...

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October 28, 2010 2:27:57 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Some suggestions:

 

If you're going to put refined resources in, it should require a building, like a blacksmith.

 

One area I think you should look at for refined resources: horses.  Spend 2 horses to get a better horse?  Breeder's farm for various horses?

 

Magical Crystals should be part of enchantment recipes.  A +1 Sword should be like making a regular sword + crystals, instead of the system we have now.

 

One last, unrelated suggestion.  On resources discovered by the adventuring tree.  To see those resources should require knowing that tech, randomly trying to build on that spot (50% lose cost of building but gain discovered resource, 50% resource gone from game),  or someone building an improvement on that tech.

 

 

 

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October 28, 2010 2:31:25 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Alstein,
Some suggestions:

 

If you're going to put refined resources in, it should require a building, like a blacksmith.

 

One area I think you should look at for refined resources: horses.  Spend 2 horses to get a better horse?  Breeder's farm for various horses?

 

Magical Crystals should be part of enchantment recipes.  A +1 Sword should be like making a regular sword + crystals, instead of the system we have now.

 

One last, unrelated suggestion.  On resources discovered by the adventuring tree.  To see those resources should require knowing that tech, randomly trying to build on that spot (lose cost of building but gain discovered resource),  or someone building an improvement on that tech.

Ponies, Steeds, Horses, Warhorses, to think of a few varieties.

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October 28, 2010 2:36:46 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting RikazeMA,

Quoting Alstein, reply 14Some suggestions:

 

If you're going to put refined resources in, it should require a building, like a blacksmith.

 

One area I think you should look at for refined resources: horses.  Spend 2 horses to get a better horse?  Breeder's farm for various horses?

 

Magical Crystals should be part of enchantment recipes.  A +1 Sword should be like making a regular sword + crystals, instead of the system we have now.

 

One last, unrelated suggestion.  On resources discovered by the adventuring tree.  To see those resources should require knowing that tech, randomly trying to build on that spot (lose cost of building but gain discovered resource),  or someone building an improvement on that tech.

Ponies, Steeds, Horses, Warhorses, to think of a few varieties.

 

For simplicity's sake, I'd split between faster horses, and warhorses (which can carry heavier troops- horses should be rated to lvl of armor they can carry)

 

 

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October 28, 2010 2:39:38 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I would prefer 'materials' and 'metals' be broken down into their true resources (wood / stone / clay / hide / iron / mithril ) etc and then refined using various combinations of buildings / magic and citizens / heroes.  I think hills should be able to be mined for stone and regular forests for wood, then have more specific resources like marble / gems / oak grove / yew patch / whatever, as they already exist in the game, except with more variance. I like the above idea of using caravans to move resources from the edges of your empire to the core where the majority of it's citizenry probably reside and work, and also the accompanying idea of military units having to guard caravans from raiders.  I would also prefer the 'shards' to be more powerful, for good and / or ill.  I also think the idea of 'currency' should be better implemented or, if not, it ought to be  completely removed from the system.

I think adding complexity and diversity to this game can only enrich the overall experience.

Sorry if I swerved off-topic.  Thank you for listening.

Edit: Ok re-read the original post.  Swerved off-topic.

Here are some resource / production ideas.

Limit resources:  Not necessarily to a frustrating degree (maybe higher game levels converts to lower resource limits) but enough that on 'normal' difficulty, and without proper management, resource patches could run dry.  On lowest level perhaps they are limitless.  Or it could simply be a slider setting or a toggle switch.

Resource management: Resource loss in processing might start as ie: 9 units iron ore + 1 unit coal = 7 units of steel.  Also at the production end, ie: The base steel cost of a steel long sword is 5 units of steel.  But if your empire is fresh, not specialized in steel production, or just plain inefficient (or all three) then a long sword might require 10 units of steel ( along with the proper buildings / magic / citizenry ).  How to overcome this?

Citizen specialists and buildings that level and / or upgrade:  Citizens that remain in a trade will level in that trade, and also allow the buildings to be upgraded.  So having a citizen work in the smelting facility continuously until it gains 5 levels ( for example ) and allows that building to grow and upgrade ( with some materials up-front and / or maintenance cost ) might decrease the processing loss AND... citizens that work at the blacksmith until it can gain the forge add-on to allow the weaponsmith building (again for example) might reduce the production cost from 10 units steel to 7. And then upgrading the weaponsmith ( building & citizen(s) ) will further reduce the cost at minimum to base ( or in theory very, very close to base at super-elite levels. )

Hope this makes sense.  Thanks again.

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October 28, 2010 2:40:44 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

One option that uses elements and concepts in game already:  Treat resources a bit more like mini cities.

 

Basic idea would be very limited city square slots (maybe 6 square max? I don't even know if this concept is still planned to be in game, but it could be used here).  I'll use an example of a horse resource.  Lets say you want to have not just basic horses, but also superior horses, you add a trainers hut (or whatever) around the horse resource that has upkeep in gold just like a standard city building.  You could then click on the resource itself and upgrade it to a superior horse ranch, and then the horses become available for your troops.  The resource itself would have the tooltips to say "if you want to upgrade this resource to xyz building you'll need these buildings" - so you can have an upgrade that might need, say 2 trainers (at -1 gold a turn) and 1 fodder house (at -1 food) and a cobbler (1 specialist/ iron) then upgrade the resource to war mounts.

 

It would also have a bit of a tech tree feel to it I guess since you would still have the 1 trainer there so even with the higher "war mount" upgrade on the resource you could also build the "superior horse" from the lesser upgrade, so it might be possible to have different overall upgrade paths at the resource.

 

If you want to go more complex and  versatile system that might need multiple resources controlled (ie multiple horse resources or horse + arcane lab for magic horses) tie in  . . . .the caravan system.  In this case your main resource "hub" could build a caravan house that takes a city slot - thus making it more dependent on other resources.  When it reaches the other resource to set up a route, that caravan becomes a special building at the other resource, again taking a slot - this one based on whatever home resource you send the caravan from.  In the case of horse resource sending to arcane lab, it would allow building pop up of special horse based upgrade at the arcane lab not normally available (and vice-versa if the lab sent a caravan to the horse, you'd build a special arcane thing at your horse ranch that would help the lab's growth path--perhaps a glue hut).  You've now used up a slot at both ends of the route, but can upgrade your core horse resource hub to arcane stables.  If you connect 2 similar resources, the hub still has to make a caravan house to take a slot, but the receiving city can make an additional horse based improvement, good if you need say 8 city squares worth of upgrades (normally impossible under the 6 per resource limit) for those +5 horses.

 

The more complex system would have the benefit of letting the player generate that +5 firebreathing-gold-pegasus-with-iron-armor in an almost crafting system fashion by having a central resource hub with only caravan houses, and all the other "intermediates" feeding in through more specialized resources.  Also creates a lot more range in requiring different types of base resources as "intermediates" without having to make lots of global pools and counts. . . but just the simple one resource and no caravan system less distracting to overall gameplay.  I did want to mention both and let wiser minds on the direction of Elemental mull it over.

 

In any case, I think it would be much more simple than any sort  of dawn of discovery/ anno system, and while conceptually its a bit complex for the player, in gameplay it would come down to building a few huts like any city and perhaps sending out a few caravans after looking at the rollover tooltip at the main resource, which isn't too much of an additional micromanagement deal for the player, but does let them have a lot more strategic depth in choosing how to transform their resources.  There might even be some emergent tactics like raiding caravan routes to deny an enemy of the needed things to make those evil ponies.

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October 28, 2010 2:52:43 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I suggest combining the idea of "resources from other resources" with the concept of "interesting choices."  Mine a resource, then have a building that converts it to usable materials.  Next, allow us to upgrade that building to allow us to improve one aspect of what the resource gives us.  This implies the blacksmith is now more adept at making armor/hammers/swords/etc in that particular town.  For example...mine ore, then refine it into armor/weapons at a blacksmith.  Then, when the city levels up, the blacksmith can create either weapons or armor with slightly improved stats, create the items more cheaply, more quickly, etc.  Perhaps if the city attached to the ore also had crystal, you could upgrade the blacksmith with a iron/crystal processing upgrade for better magical weapons, or maybe create armor/weapons that gave magical abilities.  After than, any unit created in that town would have stats reflecting the type of local craftsmanship.

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October 28, 2010 2:56:00 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting mqpiffle,
I would prefer 'materials' and 'metals' be broken down into their true resources (wood / stone / clay / hide / iron / mithril ) etc and then refined using various combinations of buildings / magic and citizens / heroes.  I think hills should be able to be mined for stone and regular forests for wood, then have more specific resources like marble / gems / oak grove / yew patch / whatever, as they already exist in the game, except with more variance. I like the above idea of using caravans to move resources from the edges of your empire to the core where the majority of it's citizenry probably reside and work, and also the accompanying idea of military units having to guard caravans from raiders.  I would also prefer the 'shards' to be more powerful, for good and / or ill.  I also think the idea of 'currency' should be better implemented or, if not, it ought to be  completely removed from the system.

I think adding complexity and diversity to this game can only enrich the overall experience.

Sorry if I swerved off-topic.  Thank you for listening.

On-topic bud, no worries.  Could be getting a little crazy with it though.  That's an awful lot of resources to manage, even without all of the above types...  This is a magical world, lots of resources that don't even exist in reality to consider.

 

Quoting FallingStar0280,
One option that uses elements and concepts in game already:  Treat resources a bit more like mini cities.

 

Basic idea would be very limited city square slots (maybe 6 square max? I don't even know if this concept is still planned to be in game, but it could be used here).  I'll use an example of a horse resource.  Lets say you want to have not just basic horses, but also superior horses, you add a trainers hut (or whatever) around the horse resource that has upkeep in gold just like a standard city building.  You could then click on the resource itself and upgrade it to a superior horse ranch, and then the horses become available for your troops.  The resource itself would have the tooltips to say "if you want to upgrade this resource to xyz building you'll need these buildings" - so you can have an upgrade that might need, say 2 trainers (at -1 gold a turn) and 1 fodder house (at -1 food) and a cobbler (1 specialist/ iron) then upgrade the resource to war mounts.

 

It would also have a bit of a tech tree feel to it I guess since you would still have the 1 trainer there so even with the higher "war mount" upgrade on the resource you could also build the "superior horse" from the lesser upgrade, so it might be possible to have different overall upgrade paths at the resource.

 

If you want to go more complex and  versatile system that might need multiple resources controlled (ie multiple horse resources or horse + arcane lab for magic horses) tie in  . . . .the caravan system.  In this case your main resource "hub" could build a caravan house that takes a city slot - thus making it more dependent on other resources.  When it reaches the other resource to set up a route, that caravan becomes a special building at the other resource, again taking a slot - this one based on whatever home resource you send the caravan from.  In the case of horse resource sending to arcane lab, it would allow building pop up of special horse based upgrade at the arcane lab not normally available (and vice-versa if the lab sent a caravan to the horse, you'd build a special arcane thing at your horse ranch that would help the lab's growth path--perhaps a glue hut).  You've now used up a slot at both ends of the route, but can upgrade your core horse resource hub to arcane stables.  If you connect 2 similar resources, the hub still has to make a caravan house to take a slot, but the receiving city can make an additional horse based improvement, good if you need say 8 city squares worth of upgrades (normally impossible under the 6 per resource limit) for those +5 horses.

 

The more complex system would have the benefit of letting the player generate that +5 firebreathing-gold-pegasus-with-iron-armor in an almost crafting system fashion by having a central resource hub with only caravan houses, and all the other "intermediates" feeding in through more specialized resources.  Also creates a lot more range in requiring different types of base resources as "intermediates" without having to make lots of global pools and counts. . . but just the simple one resource and no caravan system less distracting to overall gameplay.  I did want to mention both and let wiser minds on the direction of Elemental mull it over.

 

In any case, I think it would be much more simple than any sort  of dawn of discovery/ anno system, and while conceptually its a bit complex for the player, in gameplay it would come down to building a few huts like any city and perhaps sending out a few caravans after looking at the rollover tooltip at the main resource, which isn't too much of an additional micromanagement deal for the player, but does let them have a lot more strategic depth in choosing how to transform their resources.  There might even be some emergent tactics like raiding caravan routes to deny an enemy of the needed things to make those evil ponies.

Brilliant.  You get after I'm done cleaning, just for the ingenuity.

Edit:  Figured giving Karma was less time consuming than cleaning.

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October 28, 2010 3:12:40 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Lets hear it for economic camp 1!!!!

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October 28, 2010 3:17:47 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I would suggest dropping magical crystals after 1.1 with mana as a global resource enchanted weapons can cost mana to make rather than crystals. Other than that I'm pretty happy as it is (will be after 1.1 anyway).

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October 28, 2010 3:20:16 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting FallingStar0280,
One option that uses elements and concepts in game already:  Treat resources a bit more like mini cities.

 

Basic idea would be very limited city square slots (maybe 6 square max? I don't even know if this concept is still planned to be in game, but it could be used here).  I'll use an example of a horse resource.  Lets say you want to have not just basic horses, but also superior horses, you add a trainers hut (or whatever) around the horse resource that has upkeep in gold just like a standard city building.  You could then click on the resource itself and upgrade it to a superior horse ranch, and then the horses become available for your troops.  The resource itself would have the tooltips to say "if you want to upgrade this resource to xyz building you'll need these buildings" - so you can have an upgrade that might need, say 2 trainers (at -1 gold a turn) and 1 fodder house (at -1 food) and a cobbler (1 specialist/ iron) then upgrade the resource to war mounts.

 

It would also have a bit of a tech tree feel to it I guess since you would still have the 1 trainer there so even with the higher "war mount" upgrade on the resource you could also build the "superior horse" from the lesser upgrade, so it might be possible to have different overall upgrade paths at the resource.

 

If you want to go more complex and  versatile system that might need multiple resources controlled (ie multiple horse resources or horse + arcane lab for magic horses) tie in  . . . .the caravan system.  In this case your main resource "hub" could build a caravan house that takes a city slot - thus making it more dependent on other resources.  When it reaches the other resource to set up a route, that caravan becomes a special building at the other resource, again taking a slot - this one based on whatever home resource you send the caravan from.  In the case of horse resource sending to arcane lab, it would allow building pop up of special horse based upgrade at the arcane lab not normally available (and vice-versa if the lab sent a caravan to the horse, you'd build a special arcane thing at your horse ranch that would help the lab's growth path--perhaps a glue hut).  You've now used up a slot at both ends of the route, but can upgrade your core horse resource hub to arcane stables.  If you connect 2 similar resources, the hub still has to make a caravan house to take a slot, but the receiving city can make an additional horse based improvement, good if you need say 8 city squares worth of upgrades (normally impossible under the 6 per resource limit) for those +5 horses.

 

The more complex system would have the benefit of letting the player generate that +5 firebreathing-gold-pegasus-with-iron-armor in an almost crafting system fashion by having a central resource hub with only caravan houses, and all the other "intermediates" feeding in through more specialized resources.  Also creates a lot more range in requiring different types of base resources as "intermediates" without having to make lots of global pools and counts. . . but just the simple one resource and no caravan system less distracting to overall gameplay.  I did want to mention both and let wiser minds on the direction of Elemental mull it over.

 

In any case, I think it would be much more simple than any sort  of dawn of discovery/ anno system, and while conceptually its a bit complex for the player, in gameplay it would come down to building a few huts like any city and perhaps sending out a few caravans after looking at the rollover tooltip at the main resource, which isn't too much of an additional micromanagement deal for the player, but does let them have a lot more strategic depth in choosing how to transform their resources.  There might even be some emergent tactics like raiding caravan routes to deny an enemy of the needed things to make those evil ponies.

I like this.  I think my limited resources idea would probably just be difficult to program the AI, but this seems more doable.

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October 28, 2010 3:22:05 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Another idea how about transmutation spells;

e.g. turn mana into gold or materials, etc via various spells.

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October 28, 2010 3:22:52 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting ,
Today we’re talking about different ways we can streamline the creation of resources. A long time ago, we wanted to put in a system where I could mine ore which could be turned into ingots  and so on. Basically, one resource being turned into another resource.

Having lots of specialized resources on the global level is un-fun, but on the city level it can add some interesting options. The current global resource types are about as detailed as it should be at the strategic level, but there really should be more variety at the city level.

Have the raw resources be local, and then you pick what to refine them into via consturction. You harvest the wood, and then you can refine it into materials (adding to global pool) or you can have it become consumer goods that increase income. Once the engine becomes more advanced, then it might be good to be able to relocate the raw resources to other towns to be used, but until then a simple system that lets you decide what to do with the resources (via converting from raw/local form to a global resource) is the best option.

The above systerm does not preclude resource trading buildings*, rather it just gives more ways to tweak your income. If both are included, then the selection of how to use raw resources would be the effecient method, and resource exchange would be a way to dump unneeded/abundant resources for ones you lack (with some penalty). Also it would be good to then have structures that determine what can be done with a resource in a particular city, like requiring a master armorer to create units with masterwork armor.

* Or other methods that exchange one global resource for another. Buildings might not be the best way to handle it at this time, and really should have a way to turn them off without destroying them.

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