Thought on 15 mana port

... a bad thing :)

By on September 19, 2010 1:35:27 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

trcanberra

Join Date 11/2003
0

Saw a suggestion, but lost it, that 15 mana for teleport is OK - you can get it when you first level up. Personally I think it is bad to make extra mana so attractive, tends to reduce your development choices. My thought is it should cost 10, so you can imbue or level up and still have access.

Ah well - back to the game.

Locked Post 62 Replies
Search this post
Subscription Options


Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 19, 2010 2:28:32 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

You are wrong. Teleport is a powerful and ancient spell. It requires a high mana cost to account for its extreme power to be able to attack and defend. It forces a Sovereign to choose between having several wizards by his side or a small number and the free use of this devastating spell, allowing the Sovereign to attack his enemies at will and defend any of his or her cities at once. I personally don't rely on it because there is too much to be gained from leveling 10 wizards at the beginning.

Ah well - back to the game.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 19, 2010 2:35:28 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Teleport is one of the best spells in the game currently.  It was completely broken before this nerf, essentially allowing you to ferry around your personal army to defend all corners of your empire with impunity and still have mana left over for casting.  Personally, I think it should be placed the back of the spellbook as a late-game spell, not something available from the word "go".

Now, I do agree with you that there's an outstanding problem that essence is too valuable, and an appropriately priced teleport is only exascerbating the issue.  However, recent developer comments indicate that the essence system is getting an overhaul, so that discussion may well be moot.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 19, 2010 3:00:36 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting seanw3,
You are wrong. Teleport is a powerful and ancient spell. It requires a high mana cost to account for its extreme power to be able to attack and defend. It forces a Sovereign to choose between having several wizards by his side or a small number and the free use of this devastating spell, allowing the Sovereign to attack his enemies at will and defend any of his or her cities at once. I personally don't rely on it because there is too much to be gained from leveling 10 wizards at the beginning.

Ah well - back to the game.

 

As an aside I can't be wrong, it was just my thoughts (which you are of course free to disagree with as you just did).

 

Sorry, pedantic moment all gone - some good thoughts in your reply. Maybe I need to look into horses a bit.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 19, 2010 3:02:09 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Back when hordes of monsters were constantly knocking at your door, having a 5 mana teleport was REALLY NICE.  It gave you a chance to react to newly spawned stacks around your empire, without having to give up on exploring entirely in the process.

 

I'd say that in a multiplayer game, a 15 mana teleport makes sense.  In a single player sandbox, with lots of monster spawning (there should be a slider for this btw, I enjoy killing monsters), a cheaper teleport would be helpful.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 19, 2010 3:23:30 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Agree. 15 mana for Multiplayer, 5 for single.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 19, 2010 3:33:43 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I think 15 is nice for both single- and multiplayer. Just hire some more heroes, that will protect the back of your empire. And I agree, it shall be in the late game. This spell is one from the interesting ones. The magic is pretty crappy (the last upgrade made magic better, but still).

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 19, 2010 3:33:52 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

All the 15 mana teleport change did was make sure the sovereign never cast any spell but teleport. He's essentially a teleporter now. I imbue other heroes to cast spells, sovereign's mana is reserve for teleport. It also makes me push for tower of essence earlier, but that doesn't really change much.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 19, 2010 3:56:39 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

With 15 mana teleports, adventuring with your sov is really difficult, specially if you are trying to be a magic user. As kalin pointed out, you basically have to save 15 mana for teleport and even then if your sov is a magic user then you will be much less effective at dealing with anything that happens back in your civ.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 19, 2010 3:58:58 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Teleport should be nurfed further. Even at 15 mana, it is still the best spell in the game by 1000 miles.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 19, 2010 4:04:57 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I don't even use Teleport.  For that matter, I barely use magic at all.  I have yet to actually imbue a champion....actually, I haven't quite figured out how to use champions...I just stick them as city guards for new outposts...

 

 

I guess what I'm saying is: I'm doing it wrong.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 19, 2010 4:23:23 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting surlybob,
Teleport should be nurfed further. Even at 15 mana, it is still the best spell in the game by 1000 miles.

This mentality is awful. It is the same reason why organized got the axe. "OMG, I think this spell is OP, because I use it all the time. They need to get rid of it so I can be saved from having to use its insane power." If you believe teleport is the best spell in the game, then you are probably one of the people who have turned your sov into nothing more than a glorified taxi. Personally I think that chain lightning and summon (any) giant are the best spells by leaps and bounds now that summon spy has been nerfed. While I do use teleport and spirit dance, the only thing OP about teleport is that it is a starter spell. Spirit Dance is a lvl 3 spell and even if you rush to get this spell will take you more than a couple of turn to get to. At 15 mana, teleport is unusable by a newly imbue champion or average sov child ( I have never had a sov child with more than 10 or so mana). I think the problem most people really have with this spell is that it reduces the chances of catching the sov with its pants down while they are questing/leveling guys. If this spell is so much better than every other spell, then why not suggest that the other spells get made better too.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 19, 2010 5:28:44 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

If you don't invest points into the correct attribute, your Sovereign starts out with 10 mana.  !st level up invest into essence takes you up to 14.  Having changed it to 15 mana either forces you to put points into the corresponding attribute or forgo teleport for a long time.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 19, 2010 5:33:17 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Seems like it's better off that way gravedancer, you make a choice. Do you want a more spell casting focused sovereign to start with, or do develop your sovereign in that way over the course of levels.

That said, two first levels are very easy to gain as a sovereign, it drastically slows down there after.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 19, 2010 6:23:19 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Filthgrinder,
Agree. 15 mana for Multiplayer, 5 for single.
Hate it.  Make it scale with the amount of people yo have in the party.  5 for the sovreign and add 1 mana per person (more effort) or +2 per for large summons/magical creatures.  Raise the party teleport spell to a higher level.  SO in late game after learning that spell, you can teleport a party of 12 for something like 10 mana vs. 16 or more.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 19, 2010 6:34:20 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting MOIISKA,
Make it scale with the amount of people yo have in the party.
5 for the sovreign and add 1 mana per person (more effort) or   +2 per for large summons/magical creatures.

That's actually the first suggestion that makes any sense.
Teleport was intended to just port the channeler.  Teleport Friends was the group port and costed 15 mana.

Teleport should cost a lot of mana to port a stack of 12 and by your math it does. That means that Teleport Friends makes any sense at all.
It would have a fixed cost and be a better spell to port an army around.  I would still lower it to 12 or so to give a bit more enticement to pick the Air book.
The cost of books has already been increased so give us a reason to want Air when fire/earth have the cool giants...

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 19, 2010 12:36:06 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums
Definitely. Teleport should cost 5 plus 1 or 2 per extra unit. Also, you should have to research the spell along with raise and lower land.
Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 19, 2010 12:40:54 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Are you saying that you want teleport to scale with party size? Make it more powerful based on the caster's inteligence and number of air shards? Have multiple versions of it that can be researched that make it more useful?

I think you may have something there.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 19, 2010 1:03:41 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

It's not only the cost alone but also the strategic implications of instant transportation anywhere.

http://forums.elementalgame.com/397194

This is an expanded version based on this principle.

 

Insisting to balance everything with a single number, be that mana or credits or whatnot, doesn't realistically work in any game.
In a sandbox game you will sometimes reach a point where this one number becomes meaningless.

So in order to balance the feature, you need to balance the feature, not just the cost of it.
Something as powerful as instant transportation anywhere must have built-in weaknesses or it becomes a dominant strategy.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 19, 2010 1:05:05 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

All the 15 mana teleport change did was make sure the sovereign never cast any spell but teleport. He's essentially a teleporter now.

This is the problem; teleport in itself is more powerful than all the other sovereign spellcasting capabilities combined.  It was completely ludicrous before when you could teleport and cast spells with the same champion with total impunity.  Heck, you could imbue a champion and a few level-ups later he could be teleporting too.

Now teleport is reserved for powerful channelers, not the run of the mill kind you've recent imbued, and it's going to deplete your spellcasting reserves.  This is a good thing, forcing you to split up your forces rather than running around with one big stack of death filled with superpowered summons and crazy-strong casters.

I think right now there's a severe problem that people have grown to use teleport as a crutch to deal with monster spawns and defending their empire.  It's hiding the real issue that the only half-decent military tech in the early game is archery (and even then you need squads to make them effective) and that the only decent melee units are summons.  Even champions and sovereigns are complete jokes in melee until you unlock the higher-end equipment that actually lets them survive, and even then one bad roll and they're dead.

 

Personally, I think teleport needs to be nerfed further.   I like the idea of splitting it up into multiple versions with different strengths and limitations, but I still think all of them should require research to be unlocked.  What needs to change is that basic unimbued champions need to be more powerful (especially in melee) and that half-decent military equipment needs to be unlocked earlier so we aren't dependent upon magic to defend us until we have the 8 or 9 research levels in the warfare tree necessary to actually build "real" military units.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 19, 2010 1:15:55 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Actually, the reason the sovereign is the teleporter is because he's the first in the stack, it has no correlation to him being powerful. The actual essence amount doesn't matter at all due to tower of essence bonus, it's the mana regen of the first unit that is important. Once you start to field multiple armies, the first hero on that new one becomes the teleporter. It's not that teleport is more powerful than other spells, just that the strategic use of teleport is so great that no army should be without it. An army with teleport is like the same army multiplied by the number of time it can teleport. You could make the cost 30 essence, and you'd still have heroes becoming teleporter. The only way to truly "balance" it is to remove it entirely. Of course that's not going to make many people happy. Balance isn't fun sometimes.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 19, 2010 1:27:25 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

The 15 mana cost is only a problem because of the tie in with Essence in v1.08.  We're going to hold off on further balance to magic costs until v1.1 since it does make things seem ridiculously expensive.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 19, 2010 1:32:34 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

It is a good conclusion. Several versions or shard dependent. It would be however interesting to solve what units shall be teleported (the same for casting strategic spells on your minions). At this point it is random and you usually enchant a wrong unit.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 19, 2010 1:33:09 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Frogboy,
The 15 mana cost is only a problem because of the tie in with Essence in v1.08.  We're going to hold off on further balance to magic costs until v1.1 since it does make things seem ridiculously expensive.
So make it 10 for now and call it a day, but at 15 it's too expensive.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 19, 2010 3:00:55 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting MOIISKA,

Make it scale with the amount of people yo have in the party.  5 for the sovreign and add 1 mana per person (more effort) or +2 per for large summons/magical creatures.  Raise the party teleport spell to a higher level.  SO in late game after learning that spell, you can teleport a party of 12 for something like 10 mana vs. 16 or more.

That sounds decent.

I also wouldn't mind a self only teleport option at 10 mana which would be the minimum for any Sovereign, regardless of attributes.  Make it more expensive, even scaling (as suggested) to teleport others in your party.

 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 19, 2010 3:25:45 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

   "We" are using 30 for the cost. This spell cheapens strategic choices.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
Stardock Forums v1.0.0.0    #101114  walnut1   Server Load Time: 00:00:00.0000281   Page Render Time: