Global Mana Pool Design Revealed

By on September 19, 2010 1:05:52 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Gwenio1

Join Date 09/2010
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Quoting Frogboy,
Your sovereign is the powerful Channeler who generates +1 mana per turn. Each time you capture a shard (which in v1.1 willl have 1 seeded near where you start) it will provide +1 mana also as well as amplify certain spells.  When you imbue a champion, it costs -1 mana to maintain. When you summon a creature, it will cost -1 mana to maintain.  Thus, if you want an army of spell casters, it comes at the cost of having your sovereign being as powerful as he could because he's sharing his power with so many minions.  If you keep it all for yourself, you can only be in one place at a time.  It also makes controlling shards strategically meaningful because they are the source of the Channeler's power.

This could be a step in the right direction, but as it is now it seems like going for the neuclear option to me an virtually removing magic till the late game. How do you (the community) feel about it? 

I already preposed a charge here.

---------------

Addtional facts revealed in later statements:

- The number one was used as an example; so think more in terms variables when reading the quoted statement.

- Offspring are naturally able to use magic and do not take upkeep.

- Strategic spells will be castable remotely (not tied to any particular caster and their location).

- Spell cool down and/or cast time will be used for strategic spell.

- Essense will not increase for units, you will have it or not.

- The AI will be modified to really work to gain and hold shards.

(if you find info not listed here, please post it so I can add it easier so everyone is up to date)

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September 19, 2010 1:14:42 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Without more details on the specifics, it's hard to say as that's only one part of a bigger system. There are likely many other changes being made to support the new mechanic. Really can't tell what an elephant is from just it's trunk.

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September 19, 2010 1:32:44 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Then speculate on what they might be, there is no reason not to make ideas availble before the change.

In any case, even if there are supports to make it work (what? buildable structure for every town? building the globally increases output from mana sources? The former would defeat the purpose of making the use of magic more strategic.) one is a boring number to me. They should have shards give more like five mana, double or triple spell cost, and make high level summons and enchantments take more upkeep.

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September 19, 2010 1:49:02 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I am not sure as to what Dev.s are planing but I like the idea of a finite amount of Mana that can only be used by a select few I also think that only Sov. offspring should receive it!!Or the odd hero, that you may run across!

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September 19, 2010 2:00:37 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Speculation on such sparse information is prone to get forum goers in a hissy fit over false information they believe is true.

 

And one of the things is that it's hard to make any sort of opinion without that information. We can speculate but that tells us nothing and offers Stardock nothing. We know mana is becoming a resource so that it accumulates. But what are the costs going to be? Are there other mechanics to help mitigate costs? We don't know so saying "The system should change to be this." comments on nothing.

 

Adding mana then adding cost and adding upkeep doesn't change anything, really. Bigger numbers but same ratio. That said said, while I disagree on the rational, I agree that the base line should be higher to accommodate adjustments later on.

 

And, adding a shard to the start location is... clunky. As it is, we're going to have a gold mine, a fertile land, and a shard with generally a lost library nearby. That's a lot of give-mes. 

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September 19, 2010 2:23:00 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I had rather point out that the system as revealed so far does not work and give ideas for how to make it work in case it is all that has been planned rather than wait and find out.

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September 19, 2010 2:26:15 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Well look at it this way. This may also make the Dynasty system stronger, as I assume your children will still be born as magic. As such perhaps when they grow up they will add to the global mana pools regen? Obviously they shouldn't cost mana regen since they are a natural occurance. Unlike Imbued champions which are just your sovereign exerting his will essentially.

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September 19, 2010 2:40:37 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

There has been an inherant problem with the concept of this game from the beginning. The game is a spiritual successor to Master of Magic where magic is scarce and coveted like food stamps in a third-world environment. A small handful of people are in control of the magic pie, and have to sacrifice slices to let the magic spread. This makes it very difficult for the game to be heavy on the magic side, as it is somewhat gimped by its own backstory - and 'heavy on the magic side' is what most people seem to want (myself included).

Perhaps if we say that the rise of the channelers has opened up the floodgates of the worlds' magic? This way we can justify non-sovereign units having innate magical abilities, or learning spells or having magic-based attacks without a sovereign having to hand them a magic-stamp.

Shards should be treated like nodes in MoM. That way, if you get them, sweet, if not, no huge deal. Units should cost upkeep in resources such as food, gold, and mana per turn. So from the story side, we can say that the shards are releasing magic to the world, and tapping that power from the source has its benefits, though it is not necessary, and a person can still train as a wizard or spellsword without hoarding shards or being a channeler.

In this way, a channeler is to a wizard what a wolf is to a dog, so to speak (I'm sure there's a better example, but you get the picture).

This would take a lot of the restrictions away and untie a lot of hands when it comes to improving the game structure.

Having said all that, I still enjoy the game as it is, I just think that the above would make it way more fun.

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September 19, 2010 2:52:18 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Wait and see. Then mod.

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September 19, 2010 3:30:42 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Thinking about it more I think I "get" what they are doing. Basically they are turning mana into a resource, like gold. And have generators be the shard, and sovereign. It just accumulates until you use it up with spells. This is a model that is super simple to mod, because it works just like any other resource.

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September 19, 2010 3:55:34 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Increased mana regen would certainly help magic be more worthwhile. Anything to encourage me to do something besides make yet another unit of peasants with hammers would be most welcome! The magic changes in 1.08 plus the severe gold nerfing is encouraging me to use magic more and more. I think things are really moving in the right direction.

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September 19, 2010 4:06:45 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Is anyone opposed to simply using the master of magic system? Lets just have a pool of magical power, which can be split between regen, spell research and increasing essence, or the amount of mana spendable in one turn.

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September 19, 2010 4:17:36 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

So, they still think to solve problems by auto-spawning resources (shard) near your starting location? Bad. Really bad. I hope they intend to use this as a temporary workaround.

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September 19, 2010 4:31:11 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting divvu80,
So, they still think to solve problems by auto-spawning resources (shard) near your starting location? Bad. Really bad. I hope they intend to use this as a temporary workaround.

A temporary workaround ... for what? I'm hearing this a lot, people hoping that certain ideas are only a workaround for a real solution. When there's these many "workaround ideas" in the mix, it makes me think something's actually wrong with the whole theory.

I myself am used to the MoM and AOW:SM system (global mana pool which is used for everything, heroes have their own casting ability). But if they're going to reinvent the whole idea, and scrap what's in place right now, I hope they have it all thought out, otherwise we're going to see more workarounds.

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September 19, 2010 4:36:07 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Instead spawning additional resource to correct every single imbalance added with next patch (gold mines, shard), maybe single per faction building should be added to mimic that. Or just have adventuring techs beefed up to unlock similar resources.

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September 19, 2010 6:51:24 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Regarding the General Mana Pool (GMP), here are a few considerations to ahh... consider.

  1. Will the GMP allow Sovereigns to cast spells in a tactical battle that they are not involved in?
  2. Will the Sovereigns be omnipotent in their own realms of influence when it comes to spellcasting, (i.e. will city enchantments require the Sovereign to be in range)?
  3. Will the Sovereigns be able to target tiles and cities outside their realms of influence?
  4. Will the Sovereigns be able to target specific buildings or units within enemy cities or enemy unit groups?
  5. Will the Sovereigns be able to 'pump' spells using more mana from the GMP to increase the spell effects?
  6. Will the abilities of the Sovereigns determine how much of their accumulated mana they can use per tactical battle, or what size chunk of their accumulated mana they can throw into a multi-turn global spell?
  7. Can I make you a cup of tea whilst you consider these considerations? Or perhaps a ?

 

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September 19, 2010 7:18:57 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Istari,
Regarding the Genreal Mana Pool (GMP), here a few considerations to ahh... consider.


Will the GMP allow Sovereigns to cast spells in a tactical battle that they are not involved in?
Will the Sovereigns be omnipotent in their own realms of influence when it comes to spellcasting, (i.e. will city enchantments require the Sovereign to be in range)?
Will the Sovereigns be able to target tiles and cities outside their realms of influence?
Will the Sovereigns be able to target specific buildings or units within enemy cities or enemy unit groups?
Will the Sovereigns be able to 'pump' spells using more mana from the GMP to increase the spell effects?
Will the abilities of the Sovereigns determine how much of their accumulated mana they can use per tactical battle, or what size chunk of their accumulated mana they can throw into a multi-turn global spell?
Can I make you a cup of tea whilst you consider these considerations? Or perhaps a ?

 

 

From what we can gather...

 

Spellcasting is an ability; so if there's someone in a battle with essence, then you can spellcast. To what extent, we don't know.

I don't really see range modifiers changing; that at least is likely to help balance the availability of magic.

Probably same as is now.

DItto.

No word so can't say; I'm... on the fence about pumping mana. It would make magic stronger but it may also encourage a dominant strategy where other units don't matter too much and you just save up mana to 'pop' in one go. It also might break the balance with weapons which lack any ability to buff or otherwise augment themselves as it is.

No word, can't say. One would help that level, skill, intelligence, etc would all play a factor though. We don't even know if there will be multi-turn spells.

Yes.

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September 19, 2010 7:26:09 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Don't like it completely.

 

Sovreign has magic, and his/her offspring. There should exist a few really old heros that have mafic too as teachers maybe.

 

Other than that, I like it at the moment. I like the maintenance  for magical creatures.

What will be done about the global mafic spells for cities? will that have maintenance too?

 

Does the shard provide +1 regen for magic ontop of the regular +1 that he/she already has?  WIll the kids have auto magic regen during combat or will that be removed? Will there be ways besides potions to speed up mana regen?

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September 19, 2010 7:48:54 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Well, some obvious changes I think need to be made

 

That +1 mana needs to be +10, +12, or +6 to allow for fractional uses.

 

Not all summons should have the same cost.  Book of summoning summons need to be more effective then straight elemental summons.

 

In that sense, I'd like to see the magic tree changed- make spell books a lvl 1 magic tech, make the books themselves rare/ultra rare techs.  Create more books.

 

mana should be more about determining the max tactical spell power, and max strategic spells.

 

In a way , I think the essence/mana system we have now could work, it just needs tweaking.

 

That said, I hope after 1.1 Brad is willing to make radical changes to the system to get it right before working on other stuff- get things right one at a time (or right enough).  Then when the mundane stuff is right, then work on the expansions.

 

 

 

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September 19, 2010 8:05:04 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting arstal,
Well, some obvious changes I think need to be made

 

That +1 mana needs to be +10, +12, or +6 to allow for fractional uses.

 

Not all summons should have the same cost.  Book of summoning summons need to be more effective then straight elemental summons.

 

In that sense, I'd like to see the magic tree changed- make spell books a lvl 1 magic tech, make the books themselves rare/ultra rare techs.  Create more books.

 

mana should be more about determining the max tactical spell power, and max strategic spells.

 

In a way , I think the essence/mana system we have now could work, it just needs tweaking.

 

That said, I hope after 1.1 Brad is willing to make radical changes to the system to get it right before working on other stuff- get things right one at a time (or right enough).  Then when the mundane stuff is right, then work on the expansions.

 
 

 

Agreed with everything here. Why the heck would every summon have the same upkeep cost? Stupid idea.

 

 

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September 19, 2010 8:06:44 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Want to make select of spell books more important in soverign design?

Each spell book you select gives you +2 regeneration.. This is like how "the game that shall not be named" handled it..

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September 19, 2010 8:31:39 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Because MoM did it does not automatically make it a good idea.

I don't see the logic in that at all.

 

Increasing mana regen should be either essence or int based I think.

 

Books should give you the option of more powerful spells, more diverse spells, and more efficient spells.

 

I'd love to see later on down the road, cross-elemental spells such as acid blast (water/earth hybrid), magma stream (fire/earth hybrid), great hail (water/air hybrid), steam jet (fire/water hybrid), and things along that nature.  Maybe those should be their own book- the book of Confluence or something.

 

 

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September 19, 2010 8:38:15 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting arstal,
Because MoM did it does not automatically make it a good idea.

Increasing mana regen should be either essence or int based I think.

 

Books should give you the option of more powerful spells, more diverse spells, and more efficient spells.

 

I'd love to see later on down the road, cross-elemental spells such as acid blast (water/earth hybrid), magma stream (fire/earth hybrid), great hail (water/air hybrid), steam jet (fire/water hybrid), and things along that nature.  Maybe those should be their own book- the book of Confluence or something.
 

INT is already tied to spell effect multipliers. Maybe WIS or CON instead so we can get some differently 'built' channelers?

Great idea about the confluence though. 

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September 19, 2010 8:51:03 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting arstal,
Because MoM did it does not automatically make it a good idea.

I don't see the logic in that at all.

  

"Logic:" lol.. easy to "explain" why getting spellbooks would give you increased regeneration..

In any case just because it is in MOM does not automatically make it a bad idea (the idea here is to make choosing spellbooks more useful), which seems to be the stance of EWOM , and look at the game you got following that policy.

EDIT: though it seems SD is eating humble pie now they are adding features like global pool...

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September 19, 2010 8:54:57 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Argh.   I'm not really liking the entire idea at all.   Shards should be special!  Have faction buildings give +1 mana, make shards necessary for something else.   I'm still disappointed we went away from requiring shards to cast spells.   Lvl 1, no shard needed.  Lvl 2 shard needed, lvl...5 say, 2 shards needed.   Or make tiered spells - flame spell, if no shard - direct damage, if 1 shard, increased damage.  If 2 shards, DD+DoT, if 3 shards DD+DoT+splash...or radius of spells, or increased effect. 

Will this make mana completely separate from essence?   If so, great and I retract my doubt till I see it in action.

 

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September 19, 2010 9:08:32 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Yeah shards should do more than just +1 . But it still retains it's damage multiper effect right? But i agree.. need more.. 

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