Discussion: General Combat System

By on September 13, 2010 8:02:38 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001
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The latest poll shows that people are very interested in us taking a new look at the combat system (http://www.elementalgame.com/journals)

One of the biggest complaints we have seen is that weapons are 1 D N where N is the max the weapon does.

While 1 D N is the same system GalCiv II uses, the difference is that in GalCiv, a ship might have many weapons which would tend to equalize the overall damage.

Simply put, there is too much luck involved in Elemental's combat.

The purpose of this post is to discuss other ways combat could be done.  What suggestions or preferences do you have AND how would you communicate (visually) to the player how such a system would work?

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September 13, 2010 8:10:07 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I honestly like the combat as is.

Make the Magic and AI better and im in heaven to be honest (:

I love the game as is, just AI and Magic could use some work (late game slowdown to is still ther way later on).

The combat to me is good as is (:

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September 13, 2010 8:18:38 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

The AI is painful right now because there are too many O(N^3) systems in the game that make AI being intelligent very difficult.  Balance and more refined mechanics will help and make the game more fun IMO.  But we're going to run things by you guys before we do anything too radical.

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September 13, 2010 8:18:48 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

There's been a number of ideas suggested. Everything from changing the roll distribution towards something more normalized (ie: 2d5 instead of 1d10 for a 10 attack) to introducing a To-Hit stat and roll (dodge already exists) and using attack/defense just for damage, to what I still favor in removing the defense roll entirely and instead have defense act as damage mitigation that reduces the attacker's Attack stat and thus lowers incoming damage while still leaving some randomness.

The biggest difference is that in GalCiv2 if a unit gets a bad roll and dies, it's just a unit. No big deal. You go build another one. In Elemental, if that happens you just lost a hero you invested the entire game and a lot of gold into building. Having heroes get one-shot because of a crummy defense roll is nothing resembling fun.

Really, every idea people have suggested all have the same theme: less randomness. What happens when two units fight should have some minimum level of predictability. While I might not know exactly how it's going to end, I've got a good hunch on what might happen. Right now that doesn't exist, once the attack/defense values are high I really have no idea just what's going to happen.

 

 

Also - champions need more HP. Really, I'd like almost everything to have more HP and slow combat down a bit, but champions in particular are just too fragile as attack values go up because Constitution is so weak as a stat.

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September 13, 2010 8:20:38 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

imo a good system should imply at max a +-20% gap in dmg, second i really like to have a magic dmg MUCH more reliable (+-10%)and no miss/dodge at all

 

then it depends on how you want to calculate that and how much you want to change the combat system

 

if you want to let the system stay close to the actual one i would just reduce the randomness

 

instead of rolling 0-damage just roll 80%damage-damage

 

armor is a bit more complicated

personally i WOULDNT roll for armor but put a % reduction like in wow and other rpg

if you really want to roll for armor too i would make a gaussian roll so to have  a average reduction very often or if you want to simplify even more id put 50% armor+-20% insted of the usual 0-arm

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September 13, 2010 8:22:38 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I would like to see:

 

1) More actions for units in tactical combat(ie charging, defending, flanking.)

2) Not every unit should move 2 spaces:) horses and wild animals and generally fast creatures should move faster then your average guy.

3) Resistances, magic and elemental, as well as weaknesses to both to add strategy.

4) Less randomized rolls (been described to death on here)

5) Troop placement when you start battles.

 

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September 13, 2010 8:28:36 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

There are already some crazy efficient suggestions for how to resolve combat.  I will not get into the math of it because those responsible will post here, or you could find their threads.

 

What I could suggest is breaking damage into several things categories.

 

1) line of sight/distance - the further you are away the less likely you are to hit and do serious damage unless it is a 1/1000 lucky strike.

2) obstacles - reduce the odds of actually hitting if their is "stuff" in the way.

3) size - the bigger the monster, the easier to hit, while the opposite also works the same way.

4) dodge/parry/block save- that is about speed.  if you connected with the target, these 3 go into effect.

5) hit - say we take 2d6. 2 is auto miss, 12 is auto hit...  or vise versa.  Then there are armour, size, speed, skill, luck, spell modifiers.

6) damage - once everything has been passed, then there is the amount of damage done and how much is absorbed and what kind it is.

7) magic - armour save vs. magic.  obvious, if you are a fire elemental, fire damage doesn't hurt you, it restores your hit points.  There should be one type of damage that can't be blocked no matter what, but that should only be dispensed by super high level monsters/boss/champions.

8) if you are moving in the same turn you try to attack, you take a penalty unless you are an elite troup or something like that.

I think that covers the basics of it.

 

Let's not forget that we need to be able to have formations and flanking manuevers, and also your idea of who goes first based on speed and the like.

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September 13, 2010 8:35:56 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Alright, I'll throw my 2 cents in here. I think that my ideal combat system would change 3 specific things.

1) Seperating attack and damage would allow for some meaningful differences in weapon types.

2) Normalized distributions. I would suggest a normal distribution for defense scores, and a "skewed" distribution for attack. A system that makes multiple rolls and keeps or averages the highest one, two, or three rolls would shift the probability distribution "above" the mean defense roll, which would help minimize overly long combats due to lots of misses.

3) I would like to see magic roll against something other than defense. To me, casting a spell against a heavily armored opponent should have a higher rather than lower chance to hit than lightly armored, mobile troops.

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September 13, 2010 8:39:44 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Exposing all of the combat related aspects of the game via Python would be great and would allow for a wide array of mods.

 

Above all:

Provide clear definitive advantages / disadvantages for armor / weapon types. Give players a reason to choose certain types of equipment - just like in SC2 where each unit fills a specific roll. Bonus damage against units with essence, reduced movement speed, bonus against mounted units, etc.

Balance unit health / attributes / etc.

 

Some Ideas:

Defense should not regulate misses / hits. Defense (hereby referred to as Armor) should reduce damage:

  • Slashing Damage: certain armors should reduce damage taken from swords / daggers.
  • Piercing Damage: certain armors should reduce damage taken from spears / arrows.
  • Blunt Damage: certain armors should reduce damage taken hammers / unarmed combat.
  • Magic Damage: Spells like "magic missile" should deal magical damage. Armors made from crystals or other rare materials should protect against magical damage.

 

Get rid of combat speed or what ever it is called. Instead unify the role of tactical movement points and strategic movement points under a unified attribute called stamina. Moving across a normal tile on the strategic map could cost 20 stamina, while moving a across a tile on the tactical map may only cost 5.

 

An agility attribute should be added to determine if a unit has a chance to avoid an attack. Make armor reduce a unit's agility.

 

Different training regiments for units (this also would affect warfare tech): bonuses, special abilities, etc, can be awarded by training troops for longer periods of time under special "groups" (think army, marines, FBI, CIA, etc).

 

Post-battle loot. After defeating an opposing army, give use the chance to recover enemy weapons / equipment etc from the battlefield. When training new units, allow us to use existing equipment from an equipment storage. Allow us to construct equipment separately for our units giving us the chance to re-gear existing units and later dates. When training new units, required equipment would be auto-built if insufficient quantities existed in the equipment storage. Building weapons would increase training times (weapons / etc would need to be built first).

 

Apply attribute restrictions to equipment for heroes and regular units.

 

Don't remove dead bodies off the tactical battle map. How else are necromancy / resurrection magics supposed to work?

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September 13, 2010 8:52:09 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I think if you just break it up from one dice roll into many dice rolls it will work fine, ala master of magic.

right now, its an equal chance of getting anywhere from 1-12 damage on a 12 damage attack, yez...

master of magic, 12 attack score meant you rolled 12 dice each of which had some chance of adding to your attack score. Defense worked similarly. So actually you have a probability curve where most of the time you had median attack strength, and very little of the time you do very low or huge damage.

I also support stealing the Master of Magic Resistance (magic) vs Defense (physical) distinction. :^)

 And the more abilities on units the better!

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September 13, 2010 8:55:20 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

One great strategic tool in a combat system is the rock/paper/scissors style balance. Now, I HATE pure X beats Y beats Z systems. Hard counters break the game and reduce it to a very shallow level of strategy. What you want to do is put in soft counters that allow a unit that is weaker or has less experience to kill a stronger or more experienced unit based on equipment. For example, units with mounts getting a damage bonus against non-mounted units, unless those units have spears. Units with hammers might do a minimum damage regardless of armor, as long as they don't miss (aka even if you do 5 damage and normally 10 defense would block that, hammers always do at least 50% damage, so you do 2.5 damage instead of zero damage). Having an option to give each unit a training regimen would also be cool, say train your bowmen to fight in forests, now they get a 25% defense bonus in forests. Train your swordsmen to fight mounted units, now they have a 10% damage bonus against mounted units. Having an extra slot for a training specialization in the inventory system would be really cool, but perhaps not essential to get some basic diversity in unit types and roles in battle.

Let me be clear, the strategy that comes from this proposed change lies in combat roles. The idea is to clearly put units into roles: long range, medium range, short range, hit and run, stay and fight, grab onto enemy, isolate enemy, heal ally, weaken a powerful foe, wipe out a group of weaker foes, improve ally morale... the list goes on. You should really allow equipment to give units primary and secondary roles in combat so that A) if you want you can make each unit unique and have a very adaptable army, or b ) you can make several different armies for different purposes and choose what army is right for the current situation.

So even if you left the dice roll system as it was, you can see how things like this would make it less random because you can prepare before the battle begins by building units that will have higher chances of good results or guaranteed chance of at least some minor effect in battle. This will make positioning in battle more important as you want to make sure that your formation puts the best units forward against whichever enemy you are facing.

Also one thing that games like HOMM and Kings Bounty have that I believe is very important to good strategy is the ability to arrange your units on the battlefield before the battle starts. The reason being is that A) in real life this would always happen unless you are ambushed and B ) its a pain to take your AI placed units and waste turns swapping places and getting the formation you want.

 

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September 13, 2010 9:03:35 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I sit and read but rarely comment - but this is something where I feel a different opinion might help.

note: I have no past experience in D&D, dice based game, but love the potential and the openness of E:WoM

Combat is about committing your troops tactics to employ a strategy. What I'm finding in E: is that I can change my approach based on how successful my individual turns (at the unit level) are.

An example here might be that if my archer(s) has the 'luck' in taking out / weakening a particular side of the field then I can commit my other troops to the other side, however if they dont do the damage, then I keep my options open.

My personal preference is to make the player commit to a strategy and then having to retreat form this and re-evaluate if this doesn't work. This requires that decisions need to be made to preempt what the opposition might do (is likely) and set you troops up accordingly

An example here might be that you want your archers to weaken a particular side of the field, and you commit your hand to hand troops to the other, but if the archers aren't successful - then you can't change you mind 'on the fly' but have to then regroup next turn.

So I would think that a way to implement this would be to take the approach of committing your turns for each of you troops and then 'enacting them' on the turn. I understand the desire to move to a system which provides more real-time user feedback (like we have now) but it diminishes the stress of the battle (IMO). I would think the current is a lot more attractive to new players, but it can become repetitive. The above change would mean that both sides have to commit to a particular battlefield strategy and preempt the others approach, and then watch the carnage....

If you can mix the above with movement speed it becomes interesting. Can troops move out of the way of area effect magics? Are a horse bound troops harder to hit than a ground based unit? 

The above also allows for a mega-battle where the troops rush all headlong at the same time - whereas now we have each unit walk up an take their turn. (Like the picture of the dragon on the hill on one of the other forum posts where the troops are rushing each other - if this could be achieved in reality - it would be excellent.).

Lastly; I am a supporter of opportunity turns, as per XCOM. A great idea where unspent moves can be used - if using the current model of real time placement / shot taking.

DCG

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September 13, 2010 9:03:46 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

A post of mine copied from another thread

 

Thats one of the beauties I thought of the simplistic HOMM combat.  It had a very simple rock paper scissors style, but it helped promote a diverse army, with my hero supporting with his magic.  Unique abilities or attributes would help a long way to making the tactical battles more well tactical.  Obviously more gear oriented in this game though.  Maybe having a unit in light armor moving more spaces and having more attacks against slow opponents, so they would be great closing the gap and trying to either quickly take out an archer, or a weak unit.  Maybe having pikes and spearmen having a defense bonus, since they generally work better as defensive weapons then others do.  Having a big tower shield have a bonus vs arrows, but reduces mobility and attack speed.  These types of attributes could easily be added to the current system, just balancing the rest of the stats and items around it would just be time consuming to keep it balanced.

 

Once the damage rolls are fixed which you guys are already working on, a difference in damage and resistant types of some sort seems to be the main path to look at next.  Simply little window when you hover your mouse over units with their attack types and resistances would work, or a similar window appearing when you click a unit as well.

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September 13, 2010 9:12:14 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I'll just rattle off a few things I'd like to see added to the general combat system over time, whether through patches or expansions.

  • Chance to hit and estimated damage to be done visibly shown to the player in a small UI element before launching an attack. This would probably require players to target a unit first before launching an attack but this is how great tactical combat games such as Final Fantasy Tactics A2 and Advanced Wars do it and it works well.

 

  • The game is crying out for other sorts of abilities to be able to be performed by non-caster units. There is a huge area to be explored here and its what adds the tactics to tactical combat.

 

  • Alongside the ability to level up and the ability to upgrade their gear, champions should have access to a skill tree of sorts to allow us to focus champions into various areas.

 

  • More varied (and obvious) tile designs with more positive or negative attributes associated to them. Apart from a % defence bonus, tiles could also hide units from sight (long grass or trees), protect them from ranged attacks (rock boulders) and a cool one would be that battles taking place adjacent to a shard could have small pieces of that shard on the battlefield where a caster could stand on and empower himself with that shard's element.

 

  • Combat speed bonuses from weapons should not affect movement ability. They should only affect the number of attacks able to be performed. The only thing that should increase movement is wearing items such as light armour or the use of a mount or certain magic.

 

  • Units should do reduced damage when counter-attacking after being attacked, not full damage. I'm not sure what the case is currently so I could be wrong.

 

  • Quicker combat animations for moving would be nice, as would be persistent corpses on the battlefield.
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September 13, 2010 9:22:37 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

As you asked,

Would something like this work?

Attack Rolls

If Attack Value was 20, Level 2 Creature

5+((Random Number (2*2) to 15))

In this case 5+(Roll of 4 to 15 or Min 9 Max 20)

25% of Attack Value + ((Random Range(Level*2) to 75% of Attack Value)) 

DEF could be left a 0-Max Roll, or Use a Similar type roll.
Note May or May not want to MAX  the Level, needs testing.

I am Adding Level as most of the Attack Value cones form the Weapon, and one would think the more Skilled would do a bit more damage with the same weapon as a Trained new Fighter.
This gives a large Range and with DEF working the same way still allows Chances for Misses when the Values of ATK and DEF are close. But also allows for a Strong Hit as well.

 

Initiative
Right Now ONE side Moves and Attacks, then the Other.
Using a Combo of Move+Dex perhaps, each Figure/Unit Would go from Highest to lowest. 
Attacking Force might get a +0.5 to the Number.
All Weapons except perhaps Daggers lower Initiative, Big Two Handed Hammers are Slow.
If a Figure Waits, to allow others to act it Loses 0.25 each time, it waits.
Mounted Units would get the Mount Move Bonus, as would Hasted Units.

Use Range Bands
Give each Ranged Weapon, and maybe some Spells, Range Bands.
At Short they have +15% to Hit and Damage, at Long -15% to both, the Middle is Normal.
But Have Different ands for Weapons, a Spear should be like 1-2 For Short, 3 Med, 4 Long.
Where an Short Bow might be 1-3 Short, 4-5 Med, and 6-8 Long, 
and a Long Bow  1-4 Short, 5-7 Med, 8-12 Long.
Some Direct One Target Spells Might also use this.

Limited Ammo
Allow some Units to have Heavy Damaging Ranged Weapons, but Limit the Ammo.
A Spears, 1 or 2 Javelins, A Monster could have a Spine Attack but a One Shot.
Should be able to give to abilities as well, so Mana is not needed to use them.
This causes the player to have to make the choice when and where to use them.

Various abilities, and more spells would be great as well, but I feel the I Go, You Go is a balance issue to heavily in favor of the attacker.

 

Good Luck
Lee

 

 

 

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September 13, 2010 9:34:22 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Phazon88,
I'll just rattle off a few things I'd like to see added to the general combat system over time, whether through patches or expansions.


Chance to hit and estimated damage to be done visibly shown to the player in a small UI element before launching an attack. This would probably require players to target a unit first before launching an attack but this is how great tactical combat games such as Final Fantasy Tactics A2 and Advanced Wars do it and it works well.

I like this idea a lot.  It really allows you to methodically plan your actions out which I think is something a lot of strategy gamers like to do.

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September 13, 2010 9:36:52 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Could just go with a fairly standard D20 system for attacks, with given AC's to beat based on the Armor they are wearing, dex etc. (IE D&D style) It would fit with the roleplaying motif and is a fairly easy system to implement as it exists already.Weapon damage could be as simple as Daggers do 1-4+STR modifier, Maces 1-8, etc etc, yes its still a random system but it works very well in certain rpgs and I think it would flow well within our game parameters.

 

Then of course to fix heros, let them gain HP as they lvl up in addition to what they gain from stats gains. Make it con based perhaps.

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September 13, 2010 9:38:19 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I know there are a lot of good suggestion on the forum, but please Stardock, be yourself, and make the best of it that will enhance the fun of Elemental : War of Magic. For one thing, you can't satisfy everyone here. But if you make a good combat mechanic, most people will love it.

Just think about it, Age of Wonder has good Tactical Combat System, but... it is slow pace and make me bored. But is it bad? No, it is just me that dislike that kind of complexity.

While the Heroes Might & Magic has simple Combat System, but it's work for their own game style system.

The problem is that you use the same tactical combat board that almost the same as Heroes Might & Magic. That's mean, you have limit the possibility to upgrade the combat system in the game. Just thinking about people who adore King Bounty / HOMM. They will insist you to implemented more HOMM tactical battle system to the game; make Elemental the new HOMM series; where the hero will does most magic things, while the army move forward and killing each other in both range and melee attack.

The problem is Elemental has more RPG flavor than HOMM. The battle is smaller (just about 8 vs 8 people or something). You need to implemented more RPG style combat on it. But complicated RPG engine will make another problem on the future (Balance, crash, bugs, etc). So what you need is to make a more simple but fun combat system (that feel more RPG style than a grand battle just like HOMM)


The problem with weapons if you just implemented D&D Style battle will make the system too complicated. So if you can, and if you insist to take dice role style combat, just make it simple but fun.

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September 13, 2010 9:45:00 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

yeah it would be easy to go overboard with every unit having a ton of statistics but that is a bad idea. Simple yet powerful is a much better idea in the long run.

Unified '"Defense" just seems _too_ simple to me is all :^D

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September 13, 2010 9:45:27 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I don't think I've ever heard HOMM battles referred to as grand.  Its pretty much just like 5 v 5.  with the stacks having a huge number of units.

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September 13, 2010 9:54:55 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

One thing I would -not- do is balance magic against magic resistance; I would instead make magic supportive and augmentative rather than outright offensive. Considering how readily available magic is even now, if magic were only influenced by rare magical resistance, it's just making magic that much more powerful.

 

Basically, instead of treating magic as this special thing that breaks rules, treat it as simply another damage type that can be dodged, avoided, and otherwise counter-acted in many ways. Otherwise, first mage wins and melee units become meatshields rather than effective in their own right. It becomes more effective to field a mage who can cast fireballs (and affect more than one target) and fire bolts (affecting a single target) than archers, for instance, who can only attack (and only ever attack) one target.

 

I would also say to have more situational and environmental factors. Things the player has to work around or with to win. Being in a heavily forested tile might be good for defense, but it should also make archers vastly less effective. I would say look at some (in)famous battles for ideas. For instance, the lost legions of Rome - due to attempting to fighting in a swamp, an entire legion (including standard) was destroyed by a barbarians. In short, combat should include planning before the tactical fight ever happens. 

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September 13, 2010 9:55:38 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I don't mind the randomization with the normal troops.  Perhaps as they get more expreienced let them have minimum damage.

I think the heroes need more depth, more combat skills, and then have them do minimums.  After getting to decent level, I quite using the heroes and don't try to add anymore.  The trade off, I think they have to have a upkeep cost.

Magic suggestions, how about some enchantments that effect the battle ground, more enchantments for troops (good and bad).  I would love to see inspiration, unit fights as a experience level higher.  Blur vision, enemy unit can engage units next to it at a minus to hit.

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September 13, 2010 9:56:31 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Fenrirw0lf,
I don't think I've ever heard HOMM battles referred to as grand.  Its pretty much just like 5 v 5.  with the stacks having a huge number of units.

The stack is the reason why people feel so grand about the battle. Even if you just consider it as a cavalry unit with 89 point is just a cavalry with 89 HP, but it still 89 cavalry march together in a battlefield board.

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September 13, 2010 9:58:33 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

This please

http://forums.elementalgame.com/395985

Please that.

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September 13, 2010 9:59:25 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

also I really recommend a few of you guys download Battle for Wesnoth and give it a look.

In particular:

Different damage types and how they affect different armor types

How terrain is handled (flat % chance to hit)

2 random "traits" each unit is spawned with randomly and how it changes things

Promotion system (is super epic and gives the feeling of POWER UP)

Zone-of-Control system

How damage % is calculated (in a nice little spreadsheet).

 

You obviously would have much smaller maps, squares, and also you wouldn't be creating/spawning more units. But if you took Wesnoth maps, started with an army and cut down the size to 1/3rd or so, it might be a good model to start with. .

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September 13, 2010 10:00:23 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting DeadlyShoe,
yeah it would be easy to go overboard with every unit having a ton of statistics but that is a bad idea. Simple yet powerful is a much better idea in the long run.

Unified '"Defense" just seems _too_ simple to me is all :^D

 

I would say that a bunch of very specific statistics is bad. For instance, if there is magical lightning damage reduced by magical lightning resistance and that's one of several magic types, that's pretty darn specific. You're not likely to see that stat come into play every combat or even every other combat. It's not really meaningful or significant to get lightning resistance outside of very specific situations. It's complexity for the sake of complexity.

 

However, a statistic that had more broader or regular usage would help. Victoria 2 is a good example of how units can have multiple stats that are all meaningful and affect how you use them as much as how they do without being overwhelming. 

 

---

 

I would also say that while too much randomness is bad and some predictability is good, it's important to also allow the player to feel like they have some control and influence on a battle, even if it arbitrary. If a unit with X power -always- wins against unit Y, the player will feel less involved; the game won't be rewarding their skill at commanding units no matter how good it is.

 

As an example, in Total War, I ended up with a small unit of crossbowmen against a much larger force of armored infantry. My units had little armor and of course would suck in melee combat even if they weren't outnumbered. Being crossbowmen, they also did not have a high rate of fire; I could not stand there and shoot ant expect to win. In a pure RPS system, I'd lose. However, by relying on the fact that my units had better mobility and regained fatigue just a little bit faster as well as relying upon forested areas and hills as both defensive positions as well as to counter act movement, I was able to annihilate the infantry. It was, somewhat, kiting, but where as kiting implies a guarantee of victory, this was not that. If I moved poorly, I'd lose my movement and energy advantage. If I fired at the wrong time and forced to reload, I'd lose. As Total War tracks ammo, if I fired hastily, I'd lose (or at least, be forced into melee). 

 

In the same vein, I had to defend a city with poorly trained irregular soldiers against a numerically superior opponent (who also had siege weapons and cavalry. The only advantage I had was the city defenses (ie hiding in buildings). By using that to my advantage, by allowing the opponents to take parts of the city and forcing them to fight on my conditions (moving units away from the siege units so even if they blew a hole in the wall, it wouldn't affect me), I was able to hold them off. The only reason I lost? I moved reinforcements in too aggressively. If I hadn't, though I would have suffered massive amounts of losses (most of my troops had likely suffered 70% casualties), I was still -winning- and had all but devastated the opposing force in equal if not greater number.

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