Are we supposed to be able to trade techs with the AI?

By on September 9, 2010 4:19:00 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Trojasmic

Join Date 04/2006
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Based on some of the wording in diplomacy "you have got to see the tech I just learned...", it would seem so.

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September 9, 2010 4:22:51 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Don't you hate how much the AI likes to brag?

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September 9, 2010 8:52:12 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I seem to remember direct swapping of techs being ruled out in the beta, along with indications that it was never designed to be in.

 

I think you're taking the AI too literally. It's not saying "I've got this neat tech", it's saying "Our researchers are better than yours". Or possibly "Our researchers are worse than yours, please give me a research treaty". Not quite figured that one out yet

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September 9, 2010 10:15:32 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

It was in there originally, but it was taken out. It still has the string though that says silly stuff though that implies tech trading. 

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September 9, 2010 10:41:36 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I really think we should be able to trade techs. It's a valuable part of diplomacy.

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September 10, 2010 1:31:29 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

you mean its valuable to abuse the AI or be abused by the AI, like in galciv2.

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September 10, 2010 1:46:10 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I bet they dropped tech trading because they couldn't figure out how to deal with trades between Kingdom and Fallen techs and the issues that would introduce.

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September 10, 2010 1:53:17 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Raven X,
I really think we should be able to trade techs. It's a valuable part of diplomacy.
+1

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September 10, 2010 1:58:59 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

IMO, Tech trading ruined Gal Civ 2 and I'm glad its not in Elemental.

 

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September 10, 2010 2:12:38 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Bodyless,
you mean its valuable to abuse the AI or be abused by the AI, like in galciv2.

 

I personally like tech trading in Gal Civ 2.   I feel it gives me another viable way to be successful even if the cards I'm dealt aren't that great.   For instance, if the planet tiles on the planets weren't suitable for trying to specialize for research or production, I could turn it into a cash cow and then either buy the techs I would have otherwise researched, or use the money to expand my empire to acquire planets that I could use to specialize for research.

There was also the option to disable tech trading for those that don't want to play with it available.   More options is always a good thing.   I'd like to see the available options at game start greatly expanded upon in elemental, with toggles/sliders for things like research speed/resource density/goodie huts/ect.

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September 10, 2010 2:14:13 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

I think it should be in the game, at least for multiplayer. If it's added for single player too, then give the option to turn it off.

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September 11, 2010 12:15:11 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

pft tech trading is terrible. Fuck tech trading. 

The only tech "trading" should work like Fall from Heaven. Basically, as a certain % of the world discovered particular technologies they "trickled down" to the rest of the world, reducing the price. Having Open Borders, or being adjacent to more advanced opponents accelerated the price reduction. However, it never dropped below 50%, so you still had to invest in research. 

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September 11, 2010 2:35:56 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

In all games I know as soon as you discover a technology you are able to make use of it. But what if using a technology required an investment into infrastructure ? You'd have to spend X gold and Y metal just to have the factory going. At least for some technologies. More realistic, but I think also with beneficial gameplay effects. You wouldn't be able to simply get all the benefit by tech trading or technical espionage.

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September 11, 2010 2:49:02 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I fully support tech trading.. I liked tech trading in galciv.s and other games. It does need to be implemented carefully.. The techs would need a value that represent how dangerous it may be to give it to enemy and that value needs to change based on level of tech.. for example lets take bows.. ranged weapons and advanced archery at first when AI has ranged weapon its rank would be 1 (meaning do not trade) then when same AI gets advanced ranged archery it gets rank 1 and ranged weapons get a 2(possible to trade)... or some similar method.. At this point. let get the current game functions where we want them, then consider adding/bringing back  other possibilities.. 

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September 11, 2010 3:57:39 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Hadberz,
I think it should be in the game, at least for multiplayer. If it's added for single player too, then give the option to turn it off.

 

+1

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September 11, 2010 4:22:39 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

A good alternative to actually trading 1 tech for another with the AI is adding research points to tributes.

So you can demand a weaker nation gives you 1 pt of research / turn for 20 turns. Note they don't lose anything, they are just sharing their research with you.

You can also have mutual treaties with another player where you pool together your research.

I think there should be limits like you can only give 25% of your total research/turn max or else it could be too unfair.

I believe there was a similar feature in Master of Orion 2.

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September 11, 2010 8:02:59 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Ok, look, I can really understand why people have the view that Tech Trading isn't good. This is because it's never really been handled correctly in any game I don't think. If you're going to trade tech you need to put a little "realistic thinking" into it. In real life if two countries were going to trade a tech, say a powerful weapon, the country that wants it is going to be paying through the nose. The country that's giving it up obviously wouldn't give up their best weapon unless they had a bigger better weapon in the works or already done.

I'm what you might call a "Completionist" ruler when I play games like this. I want my nation to know EVERY form of research there is. I want them to know how to make Every weapon, Every Defense, and have the best of the best of everything by the time I finish the game. That's driving force number one behind wanting tech trading, and my own personal view. I do have a more logical view and argument on it which follows.

If your civilization didn't know how to make a sword and you managed to kill a few people who had swords, your people would pick them up and take them. They'd study them. They'd keep getting more and more as they killed for them. Eventually they'd figure out how to make them on their own when everyone else around them had them and they didn't. It's only logical as time progresses that civilizations will emulate one another until they all have the best technology that can give their citizens the best life. This happens in the Real World too (no not the MTV show).

When one country started using planes to fight wars other countries realized the advantage they had and started doing the same thing (WW1). When one country started using tanks to cross the battlefields to get their men into the enemies trenches suddenly every country started studying how to make and use tanks (also WW1). Technology also spreads through espionage or through assimilation. When you conquer a city that belongs to a rival faction, unless they burned the city to the ground and left it to your advancing forces, the technology would still be there and the conquerers could study it and learn from it until they knew how to use it themselves.

I really think Tech Trading also brings a LOT to the table in Diplomacy, which is highly underused and underrated in game as it stands now. The thing to do to keep it from turning into GalCiv 2 Tech Trading is to make the AI Highly Value their techs and only trade techs that are weaker than their best techs. Also have them Not trade their very best techs No Matter What The Offer Is. No country, and I repeat NO COUNTRY, would trade away a Iron Sword unless they knew how to make Steel Swords. Once they knew how to make Steel, they would be more likely to trade away Iron, because they have better and the advantages of sharing the Iron Sword could far outweigh keeping that knowledge secret.

One of my favorite strategies is to give techs to a weaker country to get them to fight a war against a stronger country that I don't want to confront directly. Usually you do this through minor civilizations. Give them tech that's slightly better then their much bigger enemy, then have them whittle away at that other country until they are weak enough that I know I'll win in a war. Then I go in when both those countries are at their weakest and finish them both. Without the ability to trade (or even give away) technology, that strategy isn't open to me At All.....and I don't like that one bit and find it Very Limiting in a game that's supposed to be about Grand Strategy and World Domination. Sometimes a direct war isn't always the best way to win, but bribing a weak nation to attack a strong nation without some way to even the playing field just ends up with a even stronger strong nation that I wanted to take down to begin with.

I would ask those that are against tech trading to at least think about what I'm saying here and instead of just saying "no, I don't like it because it wasn't done right in the past" to try to think of a Fun Way it "could" be handled that You Would Like. I honestly think it could benefit us all and the game greatly.

~ Raven

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September 11, 2010 8:11:35 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Wintersong,



Quoting Raven X,
reply 4
I really think we should be able to trade techs. It's a valuable part of diplomacy.+1

+1 as well, but perhaps this should be optional. [IE. We should be able to turn off tech trading before we start a new game.]

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September 11, 2010 1:07:07 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Looking into the XML I have noticed that various techs have an assigned value so in fact some of the initial part of tech trading is in the game.  As for implementation I think part of the proble is the way that the current tech tree is constructed.  Currently you aren't actually researching an individual tech within a tech tree you are researching an advancement to the tree as a whole then selecting which tech you get upon advancing the tree.  This then make trading for tech more valuable in tech trees that you have advanced farther and less valuable in ones that you have only advanced a few tiers.  Balancing these along with a base value for the tech becomes increasingly difficult.  In order to really go about institution tech trading then becomes a matter of reworking large portions of the tech tree or rewriting it entirely to add in more tech trees for research and in that way allowing individual techs to retain a more inherant base value.

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September 11, 2010 1:57:35 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I think tech trading should be automatic and trade based.  Not something you do with diplomacy.

 

This is how factions should get unique stuff from indies as well.

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September 11, 2010 2:38:51 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I think tech trading should be an option to be enabled.

As far as a nation not trading their best tech - it depends, imo. Perhaps if one nation has the top bows in the game but crap swords (they focused mostly on bow tech) while the other nation has high quality swords but they only thing they know about ranged weapons is throwing a rock at the enemy, then I could see a swap between those two nations (especially if the sword nation is going up against another bow nation in war and I'm allied with the sword nation and am playing a bow-focused nation). They both have a high need for a complementary tech and both have something of high value to the other nation.

However if the first nation has decent swords (maybe one or two tiers below the sword-focused nation), then the bow nation probably would reject as their swords are probably "good enough" to get the job done, even though it's not the best possible or most advanced in the world at the time.

I like arstal's ideas as well.

 

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September 11, 2010 2:52:06 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Tormy-,
+1 as well, but perhaps this should be optional.
I don't want "Tech trading opposers" to force their gameplay tastes on me (like right now) but neither I do want to impose mine so optional all the way (SP and MP). If it was possible in Gal Civ II, should be possible here.

And tech trading is not going to be done well ever if developers don't keep trying to create a good system. Much like the game mechanism of espionage... oh, wait, we don't have that either! Tsk tsk tsk.

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September 11, 2010 7:51:52 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Astrolathese,
Looking into the XML I have noticed that various techs have an assigned value so in fact some of the initial part of tech trading is in the game.  As for implementation I think part of the proble is the way that the current tech tree is constructed.  Currently you aren't actually researching an individual tech within a tech tree you are researching an advancement to the tree as a whole then selecting which tech you get upon advancing the tree.  This then make trading for tech more valuable in tech trees that you have advanced farther and less valuable in ones that you have only advanced a few tiers.  Balancing these along with a base value for the tech becomes increasingly difficult.  In order to really go about institution tech trading then becomes a matter of reworking large portions of the tech tree or rewriting it entirely to add in more tech trees for research and in that way allowing individual techs to retain a more inherant base value.

No one said it would be easy, but regardless of how easy or complicated it is, it should be available to us. Programmers don't get to use the excuse "but it's too hard to do". That's why they make the big bucks.

Quoting Wintersong,

I don't want "Tech trading opposers" to force their gameplay tastes on me (like right now) but neither I do want to impose mine so optional all the way (SP and MP). If it was possible in Gal Civ II, should be possible here.


And tech trading is not going to be done well ever if developers don't keep trying to create a good system. Much like the game mechanism of espionage... oh, wait, we don't have that either! Tsk tsk tsk.

Right on man, right on.

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September 12, 2010 9:02:28 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Tormy-,

Quoting Wintersong, reply 7


Quoting Raven X,
reply 4
I really think we should be able to trade techs. It's a valuable part of diplomacy.+1


+1 as well, but perhaps this should be optional. [IE. We should be able to turn off tech trading before we start a new game.]

yup, +1 here too (and +1 the toggle - players choosing before the start if it should be possible)

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September 12, 2010 10:20:10 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Even as it like the Trade Treaty, add a bonus to your Tech points.

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