The Big Picture -- What Was Supposed To Make Elemental Special?

By on September 6, 2010 12:07:28 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Nick-Danger

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What was supposed to make Elemental special?  Why were we supposed to buy it instead of dusting off the old MoM and AoW and Civ games?

Does the release version of Elemental deliver on the promises that were made regarding Elemental being special?

Elemental will be overhauled pretty much from the ground up.  I think it's important to step back and try to remember the original vision for Elemental -- and what was supposed to make it special.

The overhaul shouldn't diminish the specialness.  If specialness has been lost the overhaul needs to restore it.

Fast is slow, slow is fast.  A rush to overhaul can result in a working game but lose sight of the 'vision thing'.

Everyone has their own idea of what was supposed to make Elemental special to them, and how well that was met in release.  No one view is right or wrong, they're just different.

What made Elemental special to me is a few basic concepts:

-Essence.  Essence isn't mana, it's more.  Mana powers spells, Essence powers channeling and the restoration of the land.  In beta there were a lot of great suggestions for Essence -- creating special items, not otherwise creatable (more than normal magically enchanted items).  Items like special creatures or land features.  Things that were otherwise undo-able.

In release I'll argue that essence is merely mana.

-Shards.  Shards were supposed to be arguably the most important feature -- it's where magic was confined, it's what channelers learned to control to become channelers and to then overthrow the Titans and first destroy then restore the lands (or however the lore goes...).  Originally in beta shards were needed to even cast most spells (no fire shard?  No can cast fire spells).  Then shards became useless, and a game could be played without ever claiming one.

In release, shards are merely spell damage multipliers.  Now that's nothing to sneeze at, but it's a far cry from their original importance.

-Dynasties.  Dynasties is a cool idea, but they never intended it to allow succession upon a Sov's death.  Many argued for this option, but it was emphatically rejected.  So, this wasn't promised (and the non-promise was successfully delivered in release), but it could be a feature that offers a promise of how Elemental separates itself from many other games.

-Small but puissant Kingdoms being viable.  This wasn't promised, but the concept of city-spamming not being the no-brainer strategy was given some support by several of the devs (their posts to this effect are searchable and still around).   Some will argue that this isn't a feature that would make Elemental special, but I don't think arguing it is is unreasonable.

So, what was supposed to make Elemental special to you, and how did it turn out at release?  And if something needs 'fixing', how to do it?

 

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September 7, 2010 9:08:48 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting b0rsuk,

Quoting divvu80, reply 18
Errr... No! You're right on everything really. But AAR are hardly unique to Dominion, you'll find them on every major 4x/Strategic game with High replayability...
Have a look at Dwarven Fortress!
Correct me if i'm wrong, but Dwarf Fortress has permanent death ? The game deffinitely has roguelike roots, but I didn't want to mention these games as to not scare people away. I really enjoy roguelikes.

In general, it appears permanent death tends to make games much more epic. It causes stronger emotions and changes player behaviour. AARs are very common in games with permanent death. Roguelike players do write stories of their characters, but they call them YAVP (Yet Another Winning Player).


 

Not only permanent death, the game's motto is "Losing is Fun"! Also, it is not a rogue-like, it's a true strategy game, even if ascii graphics could mislead...

Again, you said nothing wrong, really , I just wanted to point out that AAR are VERY common around the net, for a lot of different games, not just Dom3!

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September 7, 2010 9:44:18 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Even though a game like Wesnoth is a bit different (because it is scenario and tactical combat oriented) it really adds to the experience to play through an entire scenario (especially on the Hardest difficulty) while not taking taking any *unbearable - restart scenario* losses, and making more crucial level ups than you lose afterwards.  It is really traumatic when you get most of the way through a level and then the AI takes out a loss condition hero or a highly levelled up unit that you have spent multiple scenarios building up.  I could not imagine playing on the Hardest difficulty and getting through the entire Heir to the Throne campaign without restarting any scenario.  It is a challenge just manuevering and levelling up your forces and not having too high losses of crucial or "close to levelling" units (the AI especially targets units that are about to level up - as levelling up restores all health).  But when you've finished a level, you have a replay that you and other people can watch.

It is quite an achievement to even play your way through a campaign like Heir to the Throne and not reload at all in any progressing scenario attempt (restarting scenarios from the start are allowed).  Basically, unless you are a super pro and have super luck, I don't think you can complete a campaign on Hardest difficulty without restarting some levels one (or more, or many) times.  Completing a later level without significant losses in Hardest difficulty is certainly a feat in itself.

Best regards,
Steven.

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September 7, 2010 10:38:21 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Okay b0rsuk, I get it now. I am a little slow sometimes. It would be nice to have a hardcore mode as you say, but dynasties should be in both flavorss obviously. I guess I didn't understand because I only ever load a game when there is a bug or a crash. This game has alot of those right now so it makes sense the way it is. After the first expansion I would really like to see a hardcore mode for better imersion as it would give me extra bragging rights and I paly that way anyways to prepare me for multiplayer battles.

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September 7, 2010 1:02:25 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting StevenAus,
Even though a game like Wesnoth is a bit different (because it is scenario and tactical combat oriented) it really adds to the experience to play through an entire scenario (especially on the Hardest difficulty) while not taking taking any *unbearable - restart scenario* losses, and making more crucial level ups than you lose afterwards.  It is really traumatic when you get most of the way through a level and then the AI takes out a loss condition hero or a highly levelled up unit that you have spent multiple scenarios building up. .

Is it really traumatic, or simply unrecoverable ? It's been a long time since I played Wesnoth, but my impression was that the game didn't give you much breathing room. I couldn't afford many losses, it would just get harder and harder in later scenarios. This is what some people have to say about reloading in Wesnoth:

After this scenario, I've lost all of pleasure from play, because of the fact, that my every unit in battle line was 3 or 2 level veteran and I had to load every time, to save them

now I'm playing without it and I've learned the same things as you - I make my moves more cautiously, try to defend heavily wounded units, mages, defending main heroes - my tactics generally changed really now and I think that I've learned a lot - but I'm still learning

Moral of the story: there are players, including myself, who feel annoyed by caring about high-level units very much. For them retrying a battle until it survives can be very annoying, especially in a game as random as Wesnoth. I enjoyed replaying battles in Heroes of Might and Magic, because randomness is a pretty small factor there (occasional stroke of Luck or Morale), and it's helped by the law of big numbers. I used Save/Load in Heroes 1) because I enjoyed trying other approaches, tactical battles were interesting 2) Penalty for losing a battle is often lost game. Especially in hero/hero battles - one side gets a lot of experience and perhaps artifacts, the other gets nothing at all.

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September 7, 2010 4:50:48 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting seanw3,
Okay b0rsuk, I get it now. I am a little slow sometimes. It would be nice to have a hardcore mode as you say, but dynasties should be in both flavorss obviously. I guess I didn't understand because I only ever load a game when there is a bug or a crash. This game has alot of those right now so it makes sense the way it is. After the first expansion I would really like to see a hardcore mode for better imersion as it would give me extra bragging rights and I paly that way anyways to prepare me for multiplayer battles.

I think his point was that, while dynasty inheritance is a fascinating concept for a save/continue game, it's pointless for a save/load game - so as long as Elemental is save/load only, there's no reason to develop the inheritance concept. Why is it pointless? Well, why would you keep playing after your sovereign got unlucky and died if you could just load your last autosave? However inheritance is handled, it'll still be a major loss to have the sovereign die, and there's no incentive to keep playing after the death+inheritance rather than simply load a save.

Now, naturally some people will use the inheritance system anyway even if they have the load option instead - I'd be one of them, lacking a 'hardcore' mode, a self-imposed no-load restriction is the best you can do. But those people are making the game unreasonably difficult if it's been balanced with save/load in mind. Or if the game is balanced assuming that you'll keep playing, making the best of unfortunate events like sovereign death and not simply loading, then it becomes unreasonably easy when you start using save/load. A game can go both ways, but it's usually designed with one style of play in mind and balanced around that style, and dynasty inheritance only really works if the game is balanced for save/continue at the expense of save/load.

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September 7, 2010 8:23:03 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

It seems the arguement for Save/continue games over save load games is purely for players who play to the hard edge of strategy where whatever is most effective must be used, including meta game options like reloading from save points, exploiting loopholes and unbalanced options, and taking advantage of AI failings.

For some players this is natural, but for others, especially those who care more about the flavour and character of the game, meta game options and the same tactics every time because they are the most effective is not. I've played both at times.

To blithely say:

Quoting Austinvn,

I think his point was that, while dynasty inheritance is a fascinating concept for a save/continue game, it's pointless for a save/load game - so as long as Elemental is save/load only, there's no reason to develop the inheritance concept. Why is it pointless? Well, why would you keep playing after your sovereign got unlucky and died if you could just load your last autosave? However inheritance is handled, it'll still be a major loss to have the sovereign die, and there's no incentive to keep playing after the death+inheritance rather than simply load a save.
 

Is a rediculous stance as ANY feature that provides a game with unqiue character and interesting innovative features is of course good and can only serve the game.

In my experiance I have known friends who have enjoyed save/load but find less replayability in a game where if your strategic plan fails because of game randomness you must restart from scratch.

I'd rather players used to sticking it out, especially for multiplayer as players in the habbit of quitting the game when it goes against them pull out of multiplayer when they not winning. For those used to 'going the distance' are more likely to stick it out even when denied save/load in multiplayer.

A mode choice to force save/load at game startup would be nice for those who cannot take bad luck without exploiting a save point, but the features of the in game play should never be considered based on the nature of the save game system.

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September 7, 2010 8:37:13 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting b0rsuk,
Doing so [allowing succession upon Sov death]would require devs to embrace the Save&Quit/Continue paradigm instead of Save/Load.
I'm confused why the former would require the latter?  Please to explain.

Allowing dynastic succession would require change in player mentality, it would require players to accept that screwups happen. It's too late. Why would anyone accept a bad event if he can reload ? Why have random events in a game if you can reload ?...
If there was succession upon Sov death, it seems to me that'd decrease 'quitting then reloading to avoid sov's death' (or am I misunderstanding you?). 

Maybe it's just me, but having a kid take over for mom/pop would be kinda fun, and not something I'd want to call a mulligan on.  Heck, the kid may be stronger/smarter/better than pop/mom, and the kid taking over may be an improvement!

As I said, maybe it's just me...

 

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September 7, 2010 10:20:42 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I think city building sets Elemental apart, and right now seems it's biggest strength.  At the moment it isn't magic, it's not tactical combat, it's not diplomacy, and it's not adventuring.  We all hope to see growth in those areas but right now city building is the coolest feature of Elemental.  I think it was simplified and downplayed a little too much when they went for global resources.  I hope that gets reversed--it takes something away from the game.

As a suggestion: restoring life (or curruption) to the land as your influence (and cities) grow I think is an interesting game mechanic, and I'd like to see that  somehow play a bigger role in the game, maybe even a victory condition to have all or 90% of the land restored to life (or charred).  It would make victory a team effort among your allies and promote using diplomacy in single player and teamwork in multiplayer.  Influence could grow without anybody having to necessarily be defeated in battle with a mechanic similar to culture in Sins of a Solar Empire.

I say build the game upon its current stregths and uniqueness rather than bringing tactical combat up to the level of HoMM or adventuring up to the level of Morrowind, etc.  Elemental is an empire builder at it's core, where one must adapt to a land of scarce resources.

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September 7, 2010 11:12:04 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Austinvn summed up my stance almost perfectly in this post:

http://forums.elementalgame.com/395523/get;2762476

I'll expand upon what he said. An unreasonably hard game balanced for Save/Load would be Baldur's Gate 2. The devs have said as much in an interview - battles are intentionally hard to make the player try a couple of times. For an uninformed player it would be incredibly frustrating to play without the option to reload. There's an unused option to pay a lot of money (900? that was BG1) and have your character revived.

Nick-Danger:

You may be different, but for many players it's a reflex reaction and they just reload. Recognize them by statements like "player should be able to save and load whenever he wants" or "If I die in a game and have to start over, it's a waste of time".

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September 8, 2010 12:18:52 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting b0rsuk,
Austinvn summed up my stance almost perfectly...
I'm assuming this quote of Austinvn is apropos: "...while dynasty inheritance is a fascinating concept for a save/continue game, it's pointless for a save/load game..."

Couldn't disagree more regarding "pointless".  Just because one could save/load after sov death does not mean it would always occur.  Saying it's "pointless" is assuming your value is the only valid one.  I doubt I'm the only one who would continue a true succession game after Sov death, and even enjoy that.

It's your personal preference, not fact.

If you want to argue save-reload makes true succession less useful because it allows succession to be avoided, that's fine.  If you want to argue that save/continue would make true succession more viable, that's fine to.  But the above 'pointless' argument Austinvn made and you apparently support isn't fine.

True succession and the save/continue vs save/load argument are not inextricably linked as you and Austinvn claim.

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September 8, 2010 12:32:12 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I'm with Nick on this. I fail to see how the option to keep playing as your son would detract from the experience. Save/reload is discipline, is handled differently in a lot of games and has different consequences in a lot of games.

Baldur's gate, for example is the kind of game where you have a binary situation, you either SURVIVE an encounter, or DIE (and reload). 4x Games have more breathing room, you rarely have a 0/1 situation and are usually able to recover from your losses in due time. Following your train of thought I would never play a total war game, since characters there are very important, and could randomly die of old age after they're 49, each turn. Yet I do so without reload-festing. I actually love being able to recover from disasters in game!

 

Also, AI  sovereign cannot reload, a succession system would allow me to keep playing even when a moronic sovereign comes crashing at my gates...

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September 8, 2010 1:01:46 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Why not make a "Hardcore Mode" where you cannot save until at particular location, or at certain time period. I forgot what it was called, but it was in the Fallout: Tactics. In the game set up, you can check the box for "Hardcore", and your characters gain additional experience when you use this game mode. You cannot save the game during combat and can only save at the base.

 

This should be an option, because as we all know, it's hard to resist temptation. When you purposefully lock out the save option, and also not have inheritance as an option to keep going, then you'll really pay attention playing the game, and also less likely to fall to the save/reload temptation. I found any game to much more enjoyable when you don't have the luxury to simply reload at any time when things don't go your way. The danger makes the game that much more exciting because more stakes are in play. If you know you have a safety net then you will not play the game up to your own full potential. On the other hand, there are some frustrating and aggravating games that make you restart from the beginning, platform jumping games come to mind. We should try to avoid the tediousness of those.

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September 8, 2010 1:14:24 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

There are two well-implemented ideas - dynasties and landscape-altering spells. The game suffers because of a lack of content ( special units with special abilities come to mind ). Kingdoms and empires are also way too similar. Transports are beyond bad - ironically the lore is not implemented ( we have a huge poster with a levitating chaneller but no such spell - not even a hot air baloon )

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September 8, 2010 1:32:28 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting b0rsuk,

Quoting StevenAus, reply 27Even though a game like Wesnoth is a bit different (because it is scenario and tactical combat oriented) it really adds to the experience to play through an entire scenario (especially on the Hardest difficulty) while not taking taking any *unbearable - restart scenario* losses, and making more crucial level ups than you lose afterwards.  It is really traumatic when you get most of the way through a level and then the AI takes out a loss condition hero or a highly levelled up unit that you have spent multiple scenarios building up. .

Is it really traumatic, or simply unrecoverable ? It's been a long time since I played Wesnoth, but my impression was that the game didn't give you much breathing room. I couldn't afford many losses, it would just get harder and harder in later scenarios. This is what some people have to say about reloading in Wesnoth:

Well, a loss condition hero dying ends the scenario in a loss, so you need to restart.  But if a high level unit dies, you really need to restart anyway.  You need to build up a good retinue of high level units to be able to survive later scenarios, so you need to do more than simply finish the earlier scenarios.

Something you might want to try is shown here.  Basically having three rolls for every attack (a RNG Smoothing value of 3), and a unit does either 0, 1/3, 2/3 or standard (3/3) damage, moderates the bad luck somewhat, but you still need to make sure that a unit can't be ganged up by 3 or more enemy units in one turn.  And RNG Smoothing of 3 means - if you are in high defense terrain and get hit, it's likely to be a minor hit, rather than a full damage hit.  And if you are attacking a unit that is on high defense terrain, you are likely to do at least some damage rather than all or nothing.  Try out wesnoth-xp with the above link, I only play using it now - regular Wesnoth games have far too much luck - and the effect of bad luck is *much* bigger than the effect of good luck.  (Bad luck can lose a scenario or high level unit, forcing a restart - good luck might mean you survive a little bit longer without as much pressure.)

After this scenario, I've lost all of pleasure from play, because of the fact, that my every unit in battle line was 3 or 2 level veteran and I had to load every time, to save them

You do need to level up (and keep alive) your units, and latter levels rely on having high level units to be able to complete them.  Try wesnoth-xp with 3 RNG smoothing and 0% Damage split ratio.  It is a much superior game in my opinion.

now I'm playing without it and I've learned the same things as you - I make my moves more cautiously, try to defend heavily wounded units, mages, defending main heroes - my tactics generally changed really now and I think that I've learned a lot - but I'm still learning


You are always learning, and even playing the same scenario can have many possible outcomes.  One strategy you need to use on a number of scenario maps is to hire level 1 units (which are usually cheaper than recalls) and use them to absorb the brunt of the damage (and losses) and then sweep in with your higher level units to mop up (and level up those not at the highest level)  Apart from units with Leadership, who help adjacent friendly units do more damage, you don't usually recall maximum level units in any map except the last map, when losses don't matter as long as you win.  

Moral of the story: there are players, including myself, who feel annoyed by caring about high-level units very much. For them retrying a battle until it survives can be very annoying, especially in a game as random as Wesnoth.

Try wesnoth-xp with the settings I mentioned - I think you might find the game a lot more fun - but still challenging.

I enjoyed replaying battles in Heroes of Might and Magic, because randomness is a pretty small factor there (occasional stroke of Luck or Morale), and it's helped by the law of big numbers. I used Save/Load in Heroes 1) because I enjoyed trying other approaches, tactical battles were interesting 2) Penalty for losing a battle is often lost game. Especially in hero/hero battles - one side gets a lot of experience and perhaps artifacts, the other gets nothing at all.

Me too, reloading battles in HOMM is quite a different story.  If you are interested in HOMM2 with some extra features, try fheroes2.   I have contributed to that a reasonable amount, and some of the new options are quite neat (plus you can have more of the map on screen when you use a higher resolution).

Best regards,
Steven.

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September 8, 2010 1:43:03 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

The whole "you can't lose units or you need to start over" thing was why I didn't like Wesnoth & the Fantasy Wars games.  I didn't know I was supposed to start over if that happened.  I assumed since, you know - I won the mission and all, that I could continue along.  Running into a brick wall of impassibility two or three missions later because I had two level 3 archers die when I played two nights ago was infuriating, and I uninstalled the games and threw them in the closet.

 

Games should be more challenging if a player makes a mistake, but mistakes should never just stop a player from continuing unless it causes an actual Game Over event.

 

Of course, I have a friend of mine that save/reloads everything in pretty much every game.  Random chest contents in an RPG?  Save/reload ... saving after each opening in a new savegame, until she gets the result she wants and then continues along.  Save/reload every battle in Civ/MoM style games ... and every goodie hut (Civ) or reward (MoM) until the best is found and kept.

 

I doubt this added anything to the thread, but I felt like venting about that style of gaming

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September 8, 2010 1:55:01 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Yes, you don't play those games unless you are up for a real challenge, *and* you are in a reasonably good mood (not a good game for playing all day).  I'll probably play Elemental more as it develops, maybe even some MP co-op games.

Best regards,
Steven. 

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September 8, 2010 1:57:21 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I feel the reason why the whole Sovereign-death-needn't-be-the-end-of-the-faction-or-game thing, coupled with the Dynasty system, needs to be fixed so that things are inherited, is simply common sense.

 

Good game design is intuitive.   And intuitively, if you have a whole system in place with descendants, that even details out who's next in line for the throne, the logical conclusion is that, in the event of the current person on the throne being disposed of, that setup will work as it seems to imply it will.    It doesn't make a bit of sense that it works currently the way it does, and a game--especially one as nuanced and complex as this one is--needs to cater to logical assumptions where it can, like that.

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September 8, 2010 2:11:49 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Fearzone,
I think city building sets Elemental apart, and right now seems it's biggest strength.

Really? I'd be interested to know why you think that. Personally I think city building is the weakest part of the game. It is terribly simple and shallow. There's nothing interesting about it for me at all - just about every 4x game I can think of has more sophisticated city building. It seems to me the developers must have started with some good ideas but dumbed it down heavily over time - perhaps during the beta phase.

I hope to see a lot more work done in this area in the next few months - more economic, social and infrastructural game mechanics added to make city building interesting.

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September 8, 2010 2:23:05 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting falconne2,



Quoting Fearzone,
reply 33
I think city building sets Elemental apart, and right now seems it's biggest strength.


Really? I'd be interested to know why you think that. Personally I think city building is the weakest part of the game. It is terribly simple and shallow. There's nothing interesting about it for me at all - just about every 4x game I can think of has more sophisticated city building. It seems to me the developers must have started with some good ideas but dumbed it down heavily over time - perhaps during the beta phase.

I hope to see a lot more work done in this area in the next few months - more economic, social and infrastructural game mechanics added to make city building interesting.

Not saying city building is perfect or finished, just better than the other aspects of the game.  Plunking down buildings and watching the economy grow, yes, more or less I have a fun time with that, and in any case I think it is ahead of the rest of the game. We move forward not by comparing elemental with other games but by appreciating how it is unique and good, attending to that, and then fixing the rough edges.  I hope to see the same things you do.

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September 8, 2010 3:40:11 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Hey, city BUILDING is awesome imho! Now, city management and specialization are seriously lacking, but the building thing? I'm ok with it (playing with words here, do not get mad at me!)

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September 8, 2010 4:22:28 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting falconne2,

Personally I think city building is the weakest part of the game.

Compared to the GC2 TA and their unique buildings I'd say yes - but somebody has to sell Book 2 and 3.

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September 8, 2010 7:59:50 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Stardock should just remake MOM with better graphics.

Forget trying to invent the wheel.

Im certain a remake of MOM with better graphics would be hugely succesful.

 

Sure you could even add things to it, but change for the sake or being different is a losers game and why we are still waiting for 16 years for anything as good.

HGL tried to be different for the sake of it. Stat feed was probably the biggest nail in the coffin for that game, but of course they had to be "different from diablo".

 

Blizzard knew what they were doing when they made SC2. Same game, better graphics.

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September 8, 2010 9:12:46 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

No offense, but it's one thing to say that certain changes weren't well thought out or balanced, it's another to say that changing is bad. If you never try new things you'll never get any better. Sure, you'll end up short a lot of times, but if you're dedicated to fixing it like SD has been trying, it usually ends up okay.

To be honest, new and improved graphics has never been the draw of TBS games (at least for me). If you really love MoM that much, there's really nothing stopping you from booting it up and playing it now. Maybe you do, and that's great, but would you pay 50$ for the same game? I don't think there are enough people that would, to make that kind of venture successful. As such, releasing something akin to SC2 for MoM really just wouldn't work. You have to remember that SC2 benefits from a large multiplayer SC following and has a strong storyline for those that don't. While I think SC2 is a good game (really well polished), I never really got into it precisely because it was the exact same game I grew out of years ago. Certainly, there was some nostalgia and fun to be had, but for me, it was mainly to see the next chapter in the story more than anything else. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who feels this way.

 

 

 

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September 8, 2010 9:38:06 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Nick-Danger,



Quoting b0rsuk,
reply 34
Austinvn summed up my stance almost perfectly...I'm assuming this quote of Austinvn is apropos: "...while dynasty inheritance is a fascinating concept for a save/continue game, it's pointless for a save/load game..."


Couldn't disagree more regarding "pointless".  Just because one could save/load after sov death does not mean it would always occur.  Saying it's "pointless" is assuming your value is the only valid one.  I doubt I'm the only one who would continue a true succession game after Sov death, and even enjoy that.

It's your personal preference, not fact.

If you want to argue save-reload makes true succession less useful because it allows succession to be avoided, that's fine.  If you want to argue that save/continue would make true succession more viable, that's fine to.  But the above 'pointless' argument Austinvn made and you apparently support isn't fine.

True succession and the save/continue vs save/load argument are not inextricably linked as you and Austinvn claim.

I'm completely with Nick on this one. There is no conflict between sovereign succession and save/load. Not more than between, say, Tactical battles (that you can lose) and save load. Personally, I would find the inheritance as a part of the story and not necessarily bad - especially if you have prepared for it!

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September 8, 2010 9:50:16 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

-Dynasties. Dynasties is a cool idea, but they never intended it to allow succession upon a Sov's death. Many argued for this option, but it was emphatically rejected. So, this wasn't promised (and the non-promise was successfully delivered in release), but it could be a feature that offers a promise of how Elemental separates itself from many other games.

I agree entirely.  At the very least, the option should be there for mortal sovereigns.  I feel that this would truly lift EWoM to new and unique heights (along with all the other changes that the game desperately needs..).

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