What is it about THIS game that's so important?

By on September 2, 2010 5:46:56 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Board_Marshal

Join Date 04/2009
0

The opinions expressed in these forums have been passionate to say the least but why is that?  What is it about this game that has so many people worked up and agitated about it?   Despite all the issues being batted around the one thing almost everybody says is :

'Once it's patched enough times it'll be awsome,.. I just know it... I can't offer any proof of that outside of that's what happened with GalCiv but it just has to happen... this game can't just fall flat on it's face... it just can't, its just got to be successful because if it's not... I don't know, I can't imagine going back to another game or waiting for another game to be developed, etc, etc.'

So what is it about this particular game that so much rides on its success or failure?  I've only recently become aware of this game but I've been PC gaming since 56k modems allowed me to play Dune II and Warcraft: Orcs and Humans with my neighbor across the street.

Don't get me wrong, more awsome games to choose from is something everybody wants but what am I missing?

Locked Post 76 Replies
Search this post
Subscription Options


Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 2, 2010 5:51:53 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

A Fantasy 4X strategy game with civ building, tactical battles and the opportunities given by technology anno 2010. Simple! 

And yes, BTW, there are not many such games out there, old or new. 

Edit: typo.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 2, 2010 5:54:33 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

There is a short answer and a long answer. Since this entire forum is essentially the long answer, I'll just give you the short one:

 

MoM.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 2, 2010 5:56:22 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

I think you're wrong to assume that people have a lot of faith in the game due to some sort of denial or unwillingness to deal with the possibility that it won't be the sort of game we think it can be.

I think it will be improved upon because Stardock supports their games and has a track record of big improvements post-release.  It's not that worlds hang in the balance; it's just an expectation based on past performance.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 2, 2010 6:04:15 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

There's a few reasons:

1. Stardock's earned a reputation over the years for supporting games and making them good over the long haul. People think that can happen again because it's happened before. It's a loyal fanbase. Some of them feel betrayed, which makes them very passionate. (And the still loyal ones are equally passionate.)

2. How many games in this genre do you actually see these days? The only one in years is Elemental, and a Civ 4 mod. Fans of the genre want it to succeed because nobody else is doing it.

3. There's actually a pretty good game at the core here, it's just hard to see it under the layers of issues. The core gameplay ideas are a lot of fun, and when it comes together it's a good game even now. With some polish it can be that all the time.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 2, 2010 6:04:20 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

The reason, I think, is because games like Elemental only come along once in a blue moon.  They are extremely rare, and the people interested in these kind of games wait years and years hopeful of the next one to come along.

First-person shooters, platformers, and even real-time strategy games are a dime a dozen.  Rarely does a week go by that you don't see another one of these kind of games.  If one doesn't live up to expections, we only need to await a short time until another one is released.

Everyone on these forums are fans of the genre and I think just about every one of us was really looking forward to Elemental.  When it was released, we fell into two camps: angry disappointment, and undying loyalty.  We're all dealing with it in a different way, and it is so extreme because of the high expectations we all have had.  

Many of us still do not want have to admit that we waited all those years for bitter disappointment, we are willing to lie a bit to ourselves to keep hope alive and to feel like we have not wasted our money and time.  Others have come to a reality that their dream was broken, and are bitter about it.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 2, 2010 6:05:58 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Empyrean,
I think you're wrong to assume that people have a lot of faith in the game due to some sort of denial or unwillingness to deal with the possibility that it won't be the sort of game we think it can be.

I think it will be improved upon because Stardock supports their games and has a track record of big improvements post-release.  It's not that worlds hang in the balance; it's just an expectation based on past performance.

I totally agree. in some ways Stardock is like JoWood. The new expansion for The Guild II sucked big time until they patched it and while its still not perfect it is a very enjoyable game now and a year from now that game will be 50 times better than it was when it was first released.

The same can also be said for Elemental, right now the game sucks a bit as is but given time and several patches later it will be one of the best ever made in its genre.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 2, 2010 6:10:25 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Let's clutter up the forums more with pointless debating so we can bury the pertinent threads with carefully crafted feedback.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 2, 2010 6:13:38 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

given recent events and statements I'd say Elemental is half as good as its supposed to be. I am having to wait till late fall for the est of the game knowing ill have to start new games with every update.. The game has potential, but lacks depth and stability. these are what I expect to change a lot by then.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 2, 2010 6:19:51 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

A lot of us are hoping Elemental will be a triumphant return to a genre which has been all but abandoned. Happens to be my favorite genre.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 2, 2010 6:23:34 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Everything about this game is important. Everything

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 2, 2010 6:24:08 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting hairrorist,
Let's clutter up the forums more with pointless debating so we can bury the pertinent threads with carefully crafted feedback.

I agree with this post.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 2, 2010 6:25:40 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

The whole genre being rare thing makes sense. Honestly I never even heard of the genre until now. That's what got me so interested in the game because it was deffinatly new and exactly what I was looking for.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 2, 2010 6:26:28 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Kuriostone summed it up  - MoM

I and a lot of other people by the looks of things have been waiting for over a decade for another game that good in this under served genre. This was supposed to be it.

It wasn't, hence the reactions.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 2, 2010 6:26:30 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

MoM had an amazing amount of details (especially for its era) and allowed gamers to really get involved in the fantasy aspect (god knows the GPX sucked).

That said, imho I think the gamer community is a majority of FPS, RTS and WOW gamers.  I think the TBS gamers are a minority, and I not trying to pigeon hole anyone. I like most kinds of games but I've been jonsing for a Good TBS game for a while and while Total War series are good I think they focused too much ont eh Real Time Battles for my own tastes.  I thoughly enjoyed the campaign map of the TW series.

All this said, I think gamers who favor TBS games are daydreamers, thinkers and intelligent - attention to detail oriented folk. 

maybe this is the answer the OP is looking for... If not its just my opinion.    

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 2, 2010 6:35:49 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I find myself forgiving a lot of the bugs and problems that Elemental has because, honestly, there's nothing else out there to play right now that even compares.  So if I start hating on Elemental, where do I turn to get some good Fantasy TBS without going back to the 90s?

I also forgive a lot of it because Elemental has quite a few novel features, namely the heavy Role-play aspects, the unique graphics, and the mod tools.  A pioneer in new territory is always going to be quite rough around the edges (if not REALLY rough).

Would I rather Elemental not have been made at all rather than be released chock full of bugs and issues: no way!  Stardock took a gamble with some new ideas - they didn't exactly turn out that well, but I'm glad they have tried very hard, and will continue to try.  That's a lot more than you can say about most developers who will play it safe year in and year out.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 2, 2010 6:43:22 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Already paid for it during a recession but did not get a quality product.  I'm dying to get my money's worth or even close.  It was a lot of money that I already paid, so I really want to end up with a game that does what the documentation/promises/FAQS says.  This is what happened with GalCiv1 and GalCiv2 and this is what happened with Sins of a Solar empire, however all three of those games games were released with professional polish and most of their stated features worked as intended on release. 

Normally if I bought something like this from another developer I would just consider the money lost, and mercilessly rip on the game on every possible user forum, like I did for Moo3 and GTA4 and Empire Total War, but I like Stardock as a company and I want them to be successful.  I don't want a game that every professional and amateur reviewer says is not finished, and I doubt it's Stardock's intention to have us end up with that by the end of the year.

 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 2, 2010 6:55:38 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Gene1966,
imho I think the gamer community is a majority of FPS, RTS and WOW gamers.  I think the TBS gamers are a minority

I agree with this, but I don't believe the gap is as great as it seems. A game like MoM (and, ultimately I think Elemental) combines aspects of city builder sims, fantasy RPGs, tactical combat, and exploration games. It holds great interest to the tabletop & board gaming crowd too. In addition, a turn-based game can be more approachable to casual gamers both because of pace and the lower hardware requirements compared to its faster-paced peers. All of this without sacrificing complexity, strategy, and limitless replayability for us gaming veterans.

It comes down to publicity. I'm sure I'm not the only one here that will start urging friends and family to buy Elemental once it has reached a "real" Gold version. I know three or four people outside my gaming friends who will really enjoy Elemental once it's ready. They aren't hardcore WoW raiders, they aren't Starcraft ladder players, they don't go to PAX. They are still gamers, even if they wouldn't identify with the label.

They're out there! Can't wait to share this gem with them once it's cut.

 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 2, 2010 7:04:47 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Gene1966,
MoM had an amazing amount of details (especially for its era) and allowed gamers to really get involved in the fantasy aspect (god knows the GPX sucked).

That said, imho I think the gamer community is a majority of FPS, RTS and WOW gamers.  I think the TBS gamers are a minority, and I not trying to pigeon hole anyone. I like most kinds of games but I've been jonsing for a Good TBS game for a while and while Total War series are good I think they focused too much ont eh Real Time Battles for my own tastes.  I thoughly enjoyed the campaign map of the TW series.

All this said, I think gamers who favor TBS games are daydreamers, thinkers and intelligent - attention to detail oriented folk. 

maybe this is the answer the OP is looking for... If not its just my opinion.    

I think you and me would get along fine.

After sparking a debate or too with some people on the forums, I'm thinking that it is true that TBS gamers are a dying breed. Just the fact that SD seemed to be concerned about "competitive" gameplay for Elemental, was enough alarm bells for me to warn me that something weird/bad was going to happen.

The whole concept of trying to stay clear from common 4X game systems. (Like terrain exploitation) Give me a feel that they are trying to mix in RPG & RTS into a TBS mold. From the current state of things, it's not a great mix. Although it's hard to say, as many have said, the premise sounds fun. It's just impossible to see what the game is like because of all the broken features, lack of balance & depth.

So sadly enough I'm keeping my foot in the door for now, for I'm afraid I got so caught up in the "MOM 2" is coming train that I failed to properly read about the game and it's direction.

 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 2, 2010 7:08:16 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting GaelicVigil,
Would I rather Elemental not have been made at all rather than be released chock full of bugs and issues: no way!  Stardock took a gamble with some new ideas - they didn't exactly turn out that well, but I'm glad they have tried very hard, and will continue to try.  That's a lot more than you can say about most developers who will play it safe year in and year out.

 

This is a false choice.  Brad / Frogboy (Stardock's CEO) has a very grown-up, honest, and impressive post on the subject in the second page of comments in the 'Why is everyone upset...' thread.  I think a lot of the problem is there wasn't a beta.  What was called a beta was really a combination focus group and alpha, which was fun and affected the direction of the game in mostly positive ways.  But the final 'game' was put together very quickly (was it a month?) without anyone ever playing the real version (that I recall, at least).  For a stark comparison, how many *years* does Blizzard tweak the final version?

 

Disclaimer: I already enjoy the game, and still expect great things.  I'm very sad it fell out this way because it will hurt Stardock, and fewer people will be willing to play the 'final' game (whenever that is) due to the bad word-of-mouth.  Here's hoping reviews of the expansions in a year or so will bend the curve back to positive!

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 2, 2010 7:11:58 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

It's simple, everyone knows Stardock employees are hotter.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 2, 2010 7:17:23 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting hairrorist,
Let's clutter up the forums more with pointless debating so we can bury the pertinent threads with carefully crafted feedback.

Yeah, because I'm sure all the developers have no idea what the actual issues are... And this thread will now cover up all those issues, thus allowing the developers not to fix some important thing, and claim they didn't see it because of this specific thread... Please...

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 2, 2010 7:18:18 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

There are some games you play that are fun despite the bugs and issues they have; Elemental is one of them.  What sets Elemental apart though is that the devs actually have a chance to fix it, because they won't be shut down due to lack of money

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 2, 2010 7:39:37 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

It's a symptom of how unhealthy the game market is.

People are tired of playing Warcraft 2/Doom/GTA over and over,  they want something else,  Elemental is something else,  so they're willing to be passionate for it.

 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 2, 2010 7:48:08 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

I sorta got the impression that all these Tools for Stardock's customers to build their own world was a sort of way around any lack of licensing to remake MoM.

Just a thought

Anyone already working on it?

 

But, that's also short-sighted and I know it.  We could do better than MoM, if that's possible.  And maintain it as a gaming community.  And expand it.  And craft our own stories, adventures, creatures, artifacts, and events and take other players on epic journeys through shared lands.

Sounds pretty nifty.

Frankly, this game is brilliant.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 2, 2010 7:48:39 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I'll toss my hat in the "Because MoM, duh".  Which is also part of the vitrol being delivered on the game.  There's a lot of us who, as noted, have been waiting since 1994 for another Civ-like fantasy 4x game while all the industry has seemed to be interested in putting out is HOMM-style kingdom builders.. which while close, is not quite what we've been wanting.  When word started to get out that StarDock was trying to get the license to produce MoM2, it sent shockwaves through our small but ardent fandom.  We weren't fazed when we heard that the license fell through and it was going to be a 'spiritual successor'.  We all knew that just meant MoM with the serial numbers filed off.  There's honestly no way the game could have lived up to the hype MoM fans produced all on their own, so when it was released in a fairly broken state, that just made the backlash that much worse.

Same thing happened to Master of Orion III.. but thankfully EWOM isn't quite so fundamentally broken as that game was, and StarDock has a lot of love for the game and a reputation for great post-release care, so there's plenty of hope yet.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
Stardock Forums v1.0.0.0    #108432  walnut2   Server Load Time: 00:00:00.0000265   Page Render Time: