Why is everyone upset the game came out "early"?!?

By on September 2, 2010 11:44:49 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

cattess

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Sorry for the dissertation, but if you are bored while waiting for Elemental to get fixed and want to contemplate the silliness of the human psyche....

I must admit I don't understand all the anger/people saying Stardock should have delayed releasing Elemental until February 2011.  It seems to me that EVERYONE is better off with the game released and in players' hands, rather than having Stardock work on it internally for another 6 months before release:

1.) Stardock

Obvious - better off cause they have people's money, and can get players to do their "beta testing", find bugs, etc. without having to pay them...big win.

2.) Players who like the game

"Fanboys" or not, there are apparently a lot of people (50%-ish in the poll, and some positive comments in the forums) who are enjoying playing the game, even if they realize it is not perfect.  They are happy it is out now so they get 6 months more of enjoyment.  Plus the ability to make suggestions, which means the game will be better by Feb 2011 than it would be if it was just in Stardock's hands internally...let's face it, the official beta-testing process was not, and would not have been, as intense as what is happening now that the game is released - i.e. whenever the game got released players would have a lot of complaints/suggestions, and this way they are taken care of now, rather than 6 months from now.  So you get to have whatever fun you can have with the game now, PLUS have the game in better shape by next February than it would otherwise be...PLUS have Stardock feeling bad and more likely to give additional free content that they were planning on charging for going forward = big win for this group, as well.

3.) Players who hate/are frustrated by the game in current form

Okay, you hate the game.  Don't play it until next February, and you are in the same place you'd be if they didn't release it until then.  Only you are even BETTER off, becasue of the reasons outlined above....you at least have the chance to make suggestions, and/or have other people climbing all over the game and improving it, so it will be better this way by February 2011 than it would have been if they didn't release it until then.  Plus more Stardock effort/free stuff, as above.  Okay, you had to put up your $50 now.  But since you were going to spend $50 next February, you didn't LOSE $50, you just lost the use of that $50 for 6 months.  Left in the bank, at the current .1% interest, that "costs" you $.025 in interest (pre-tax!).  That sucks, but only a little.  I would think if you were going to plop down $50 in 6 months anyways, plopping down, in effect, $50.025 now to get a more-robust, fully tested and vetted game in 6 months that you can mess around with now if you feel like it (and ignore if you don't), PLUS get Stardock's extra effort to make up the problem stuff, seems like a pretty good deal.  So ignore the game, come back in February, and have a better game due to the "early" release than you would have had otherwise.  If losing out on the $.025 interest on your money for 6 months really annoys you, get a refund and rebuy later - annoying, but not catastrophic, especially relative to the "free look" at maybe enjoying the game now and definelty enjoying the game more once it's been refined by the rest of the public.  Either way, the "pre-mature" release seems like a small win even for this group.

I understand if a company releases a game that's not ready, takes your money, and walks away...that REALLY sucks, and no one wants to support the trend of companies doing that.  But no one,  even those who hate the game in it's current form, appears to think Stardock is going to do that.

Feeling like you are going to get something great, and then having to wait, is annoying...but you'd have to wait if they delayed the release, too.  And buying something you thought you'd like, and having to go through the hassle of getting a refund cause you need the money to buy something else to amuse yourself, is also annoying.  But it also seems that the annoyance is small compared to the CHANCE to get a look at something early...you might like it..you might not like it but like the chance to help reshape it...you probably will like it more in 6 months than you would have if the release was delayed...it just seems to me that if you really THINK about it, we should ALL be glad Stardock released this game now rather than working on it internally until Febrauary of next year... Stardock wins; people who are enjoying the game now win, and even people who dislike the game in it's current format kinda win.  So why the hate?!?!

...if you truly believe that they will continue to improve the game as much as they would have if they kept it internal for 6 more months, the "early" release is a GREAT thing for EVERYONE (like how the capital letters make my points so much stronger.."look, it's in capitals..must be right!").  And it gets even better if you STOP writing how much you hate the game in the forums, and let other people help improve it for you without the distraction!!

Stardock - KEEP releasing games early, AS LONG AS YOU WORK HARD TO SUPPORT THEM AFTER RELEASE, we all win that way!!!!!!

 

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September 2, 2010 11:54:04 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

I'm not. I'm quite glad it came out when it did.

Those with the loudest voices against its "condition at release" were those who pirated the game and couldn't get the release patch. They got a buggy prerelease version and were upset about it.

Anyway, i can see from a customer standpoint of where they were unfamiliar with Stardock as a company and they got a game that was in the shape of 1.05. But the majority of early release players are those that know Stardock from reputation and are generally tolerant of such states of affairs. Many of them haven't been vocal because their game works for them and there is no need. Also, many of them only became vocal much later in the game about balance and things, not so much about bugs.

Stardock - KEEP releasing games early, AS LONG AS YOU WORK HARD TO SUPPORT THEM AFTER RELEASE, we all win that way!!!!!!

I totally agree!

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September 2, 2010 11:55:13 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Stardock - KEEP releasing games early, AS LONG AS YOU WORK HARD TO SUPPORT THEM AFTER RELEASE, we all win that way!!!!!!

I wouldn't encourage this at all. And I'm in the camp of players who like the game. Obviously they should work hard to support the games after release, but the aim should be to release as complete a game as possible, not to get it out quickly.

Besides, Elemental wasn't released "early". It was released when it had to be released. It's not like they sat there and went "Ah f**k it, let's just get it out and we can patch it up later". They had a deadline that had to be hit and one that couldn't be pushed farther.

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September 2, 2010 11:58:39 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

The problem I have is that when I pay $50 for a game, I expect it to be complete - not the utter mess that the current game is. If I wanted to wait until February to play it, I would have kept my money until February.

The state this game is in is shameful:

1. The game is completely infested with game-breaking bugs. I mean, seriously, magic doesn't even work right. How in the world could the developers/testers have missed that one? It's a major part of the game.

2. The combat system simply doesn't work. There's plenty of discussion elsewhere, so I won't delve into it here. The point is that whoever designed the game obviously doesn't know much about GAME DESIGN, particularly game mechanics, which I find shocking considering Stardock has a lot of experience under its belt.

I am a professional software developer, and part time game designer, and I can tell you that I wouldn't release something like this for free, much less for money. It would ruin my reputation. And don't think that I am just ranting because I hate the game. I actually have high hopes for this game being great some day. I think it has a unique concept that could really play out in the end. However, I am infuriated that it was released in a state that isn't even good enough to be classified as beta. This is an alpha release through and through. So yes, I am ticked off, because I could have used my money to buy Starcraft 2 and waited to buy this. As it is, I now own a game that can't really be played.

This is the only game I have ever owned that I am shelving for a few months until it gets into a playable state.

They had a deadline that had to be hit and one that couldn't be pushed farther.

It's a good thing car manufacturers don't work this way. Otherwise, you might find out the car you just bought doesn't come with brakes. 'They're going to be added in a month or so, we promise. You can still drive it until then. You just might have a few problems along the way.'

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September 2, 2010 12:00:07 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Verkinix,


Those with the loudest voices against its "condition at release" were those who pirated the game and couldn't get the release patch. They got a buggy prerelease version and were upset about it.

 

 

Errrr..... No, really no.

 

I'm happy with the game, but I know at least 3 ppl in real life and lots of them on the net that own a legit copy,  patched to 1.6, that are stuck with 5fps each time a 3d object enters the screen.

Also, even if the game works like a charm for me, it's still "unplayable" because of the total lack of balance, broken or missing features, and quirks (like suiciding sovereign). It's a cakewalk to steamroll AI atm, even if I refrain myself from using a LOT of strategies.

So, the game has INCREDIBLE potential, but to say the only ones with problems are those that pirated it is wrong!

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September 2, 2010 12:04:53 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

It's interesting to compare the message in this thread with someone saying the exact opposite around the same posting time.

I'll admit, I'm pretty baffled by your comments. Would the Reductio ad absurdum version be that they should release it the instant they have something that compiles?

People who wanted access to the game (ie: people who like the game in your breakdown) already had it. It was called beta. Some of us have been playing the game for *months* through the public beta process. There's a number of people interested in the game who deliberately didn't participate in that, because they wanted a release quality product. Giving them something that's early (again, to use your terms) doesn't help them. It just pisses them off and sends them to get refunds or complain  to their friends and other forums about the game.

It also doesn't help Stardock. Reviews in the 8 or 9 range and awards are good for a game. Reviews in the 5 or 6 range with articles telling people flat out to avoid it right now are not. You only get to make a first impression once.

This has been a rough launch. They're putting in a lot of work to make it right, and that's great. But that doesn't mean you should encourage the same thing to happen next time. Everybody (including them) would enjoy a smooth launch a whole lot more.

 

edit - Also the piracy stuff is absolute bullshit. The primary complaints have been from actual customers.

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September 2, 2010 12:04:54 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Those with the loudest voices against its "condition at release" were those who pirated the game and couldn't get the release patch. They got a buggy prerelease version and were upset about it.

That is probably one of the most asinine and offensive comments I have read on these forums.

Oh and it's even factually incorrect, the patches were available within 24 hours of their official release by the pirate group called "Skidrow". So no, the pirates are not the ones complaining, the ones complaining are those that paid 50 dollars.

"SHOW ME YOUR PAPERS!"

I mean do we have to post a screenshot of the invoice emails before you legitimize our complaints?

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September 2, 2010 12:05:33 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

1.  Brad has repeatedly stated that due to their revenue streams from other products, they don't need to rush or depend on games for income.  So, they didn't need to release early to get people's money.  When you have this kind of LUXURY situation that's nowhere near normal, why not polish and sit on games til they're more release worthy instead of releasing what is essentially still a rough beta?  Don't most creators want people to love their products instead of universally bash them for being in a terrible state?  Why set yourself up to go thru this?

2.  Elemental can be played and enjoyed, but it could be so much better.  Why settle for "OK" when the expectation was "amazing."  Plus, you pretty much have to intentionally turn a blind eye to ignore the many problems and shortcoming of this game.  I play a lot of truly awesome games.  I have high expectations.  I can't ignore the reality of the situation.

3.  I haven't seen that much hate, vs seeing a lot of people who love Stardock, love the concept behind Elemental, and want nothing but the best for the game, but who are grossly disappointed in the simplicity, lack of polish, utterly broken elements in every direction, poor UI, lack of cohesion, etc.

 

I could say here, take this family sedan.  It works.  It has the basics.  It will get you where you wanna go.  But wouldn't you rather have a porshe/hummer/mustang/something more sexy?  I'm sure people can argue all kinds of stupid things but the bottom line is that given a choice, most people want the sexier model.

Elemental should be that sexy instead of the stripped down basics.  One day, Elemental probably will be that sexy.

If money isn't a factor, why release a stripped down game now that's broken in a lot of ways, get hammered by the press, put unsuspecting fans and potential new fans thru hell, take a huge reputation hit, etc, when sitting on the game another 3-6 months and releasing a more robust and sexy game would've lead to a completely different and probably opposite experience?

A lot of people (myself included) pre-ordered to have beta access.  There's a big difference between being told that up front and being told the game is in release condition but it's not, and people are essentially being charged to beta for another 6 months.

 

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September 2, 2010 12:09:48 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting fsovercash,
It's a good thing car manufacturers don't work this way. Otherwise, you might find out the car you just bought doesn't come with brakes. 'They're going to be added in a month or so, we promise. You can still drive it until then. You just might have a few problems along the way.'

Different industries are different. When someone like Walmart tells someone a lot smaller (like Stardock) that they'll give you shelf space in August but not in September, you need to either deliver something in August or make arrangements with them to move that date well in advance.

Back when they had the chance to move it, they thought August was enough time. That turned out to be wrong. But it wasn't a situation where they could arbitrarily tack a month on at the last minute.

 

(Hopefully when games go fully digital and retail goes away, they WILL be able to do that.)

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September 2, 2010 12:10:16 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Right below this thread, on the forums list, was another post called "I did not pay to Fix or Finish Elemental", which I beleive is (ironically) the answer to your question. When officialy release something, and it gets a 50% dissatisfaction rate on our own forums, that's a HUGE chunk of our customers that feel it wasn't ready to be put out, no matter how we felt about the 'Gold' version.

There's a lot to learn from the release of Elemental, and 'let's make every launch like this one!' is not one of them

However, we will ALWAYS put aside funds for future updates, so don't worry about that. Once the crushing worry about release dates and overall reception have come and gone, the post-release update period is the most fun you can have making games. I just hope that,once the dust settles, we all get to experience the joy of that period, and not be playing catch-up for years to come.

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September 2, 2010 12:13:02 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting BoogieBac,
Right below this thread, on the forums list, was another post called "I did not pay to Fix or Finish Elemental", which I beleive is (ironically) the answer to your question. When we put something out, and it gets a 50% dissatisfaction rate on our own forums, that's a HUGE chunk of our customers that feel it wasn't ready to be put out.

There's a lot to learn from the release of Elemental, and 'let's make every launch like this one!' is not one of them

However, we will ALWAYS put aside funds for future updates, so don't worry about that. Once the crushing worry about release dates and overall reception have come and gone, the post-release update period is the most fun you can have making games. I just hope that,once the dust settles, we all get to experience the joy of that period, and not be playing catch-up for years to come.

 

You have my respect man, really!

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September 2, 2010 12:17:36 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

There are two groups of losers.

 

a) Those who bought the game but didn't pre-order, and this is their first Stardock game.

- these people may be turned off by the launch, don't know how well Stardock supports their game, and may end up hating Stardock.  These guys are lost sales.

- the only way to win these guys back is to hope they don't give up on the game, advertising, and massive support.  I expect SD to do all this.

 

Stardock themselves.

 

- people will be reluctant to pre-order in the future, leading to less pre-order revenue, and lower budget for games, which leads to worse games

- the negative PR

 

Personally, the early release is a benefit to the pre-order folks, as the game is getting worked on/improved much faster then it would have if it was still 5 months out.  I wonder what percentage of people pre-ordered for GCII as compared to EWOM?

 

 

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September 2, 2010 12:17:38 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

1. Brad has repeatedly stated that due to their revenue streams from other products, they don't need to rush or depend on games for income. So, they didn't need to release early to get people's money. When you have this kind of LUXURY situation that's nowhere near normal, why not polish and sit on games til they're more release worthy instead of releasing what is essentially still a rough beta? Don't most creators want people to love their products instead of universally bash them for being in a terrible state? Why set yourself up to go thru this?

This is true up to a point. They have other revenue streams so they can afford longer development cycles, but they can't hold it off indefinitely. For example, before the beta began (last summer), they said "Okay, we have 2 release windows available, February 2010 and August 2010, what do you guys think we should aim for?" Overwhelmingly, people asked for a longer beta cycle and to release in August. A few more months for the game would've been great, but the next release window isn't until February 2011, and that's a long time of spending money without a return. There comes a point where they have to release, even with other revenue streams. Like Tridus said, they felt they could do it by August, it turned out too late that wasn't quite the case. It sucks, but such is the industry

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September 2, 2010 12:18:27 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I think it should have been delayed until February, the "fanboys" who preordered it would get new beta versions to test, so SD would still get lots of useful feedback. Using the OP's logic, it should have been released when the first alpha build was ready, so the purchasers can test it for Stardock.

It's better to conduct beta-tests when the game is not ready, and release it when it's ready, and not use the release version as another stage of beta-testing, as in this case. Early release causes bad reviews and bad opinions among those who purchased it (and they tell their friends what they think about the game), and in effect less sales.

Also many people who buy it may lose interest quickly after seeing its current state and never come back to it, and in case of a later release of a better quality product they would be interested for a longer time and contribute to the community.

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September 2, 2010 12:19:15 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting BoogieBac,
Right below this thread, on the forums list, was another post called "I did not pay to Fix or Finish Elemental", which I beleive is (ironically) the answer to your question. When we put something out, and it gets a 50% dissatisfaction rate on our own forums, that's a HUGE chunk of our customers that feel it wasn't ready to be put out.

There's a lot to learn from the release of Elemental, and 'let's make every launch like this one!' is not one of them

However, we will ALWAYS put aside funds for future updates, so don't worry about that. Once the crushing worry about release dates and overall reception have come and gone, the post-release update period is the most fun you can have making games. I just hope that,once the dust settles, we all get to experience the joy of that period, and not be playing catch-up for years to come.

 

Well said BB.

 

A lot of criticism, both deserved and not, has come your way, I hope you and the team are able to sift it and learn from it without being discouraged.  I look forward to the first content update, and will likely by buying the game at that point, so I appreciate how SD supports it's products, I just hope in the future the need for immediate *FIX IT* support is less

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September 2, 2010 12:20:33 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting divvu80,

Quoting BoogieBac, reply 9Right below this thread, on the forums list, was another post called "I did not pay to Fix or Finish Elemental", which I beleive is (ironically) the answer to your question. When we put something out, and it gets a 50% dissatisfaction rate on our own forums, that's a HUGE chunk of our customers that feel it wasn't ready to be put out.

There's a lot to learn from the release of Elemental, and 'let's make every launch like this one!' is not one of them

However, we will ALWAYS put aside funds for future updates, so don't worry about that. Once the crushing worry about release dates and overall reception have come and gone, the post-release update period is the most fun you can have making games. I just hope that,once the dust settles, we all get to experience the joy of that period, and not be playing catch-up for years to come.

 

You have my respect man, really!

Yes, Stardock will always have my respect because of how they treat their customers. But they have lost my trust (slightly), at least for the time being.

Before Elemental, I would have paid them for any product that I was interested in without hesitation, but now I'll have to think about it, or wait for the release to see how the reception is. 

Which is kind of sad, at least to me. I don't like losing faith in companies that I once had complete confidence in.

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September 2, 2010 12:22:01 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting BoogieBac,
There's a lot to learn from the release of Elemental, and 'let's make every launch like this one!' is not one of them
   heheh

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September 2, 2010 12:25:06 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I think one of the main reasons for a this bad blood around here is basically the fact, that Stardock claimed Elemental to be ready on the release day (i.e. the 24th of August) ... I'm not counting those two days before with all this broken street-date issues. They said the game is finished and that is great and fun to play. And they also publicly still continue to do so, looking at the current advertisements.

And lets face it, this did not reflect the game in its release (and to some extent also current) state. It has some serious quality issues, that should have been detected pre-release. Thus it is only natural that some people, and here especially those that hadn't spend weeks or month in advance, getting information about this game in this forum or elsewhere, are angry, pissed, feel cheated or whatever you may call it. And rightfully so. You simply cannot expect anybody who got slapped on one side of the face to offer also the other one and say "OK, lets bring out the potential of this game together." Everybody is different. And the fact that Stardock is offering a very generous "refund" policy tells me that at least they do understand this ... even if not everybody on the forum does.

So don't flame the guys flaming the game. They have a right to do so, even if we decided to jump on the "Stardock" train for the time being and see where it may lead us to.

Rabenhoff

 

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September 2, 2010 12:35:37 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

So don't flame the guys flaming the game. They have a right to do so, even if we decided to jump on the "Stardock" train for the time being and see where it may lead us to.

There's a fine line between flaming the game, and flaming Stardock. As I've repeatedly pointed out, there's plenty of "This aspect of the game isn't fun, needs improvement". But a lot of threads are "Stardock sucks for releasing early!!!" That's not flaming the game anymore, that's flaming Stardock.

The majority of those who like the game will readily accept it has ways to go before it's awesome.

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September 2, 2010 12:48:38 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I agree people are getting charged to beta test for another 6 months...my point is the charge is small relative to the benefit, as you can choose to do no work/beta testing and just lose out on the use of your $50 for 6 months, which is, in financial terms, a very small "real" cost.  And that the "beta test" as a full release is superior to a "beta test" as a "beta test", if that makes sense (open to the suggestion that it doesn't).

"I'll admit, I'm pretty baffled by your comments. Would the Reductio ad absurdum version be that they should release it the instant they have something that compiles?"

My point is everyone would be better off, in "logical" terms, SO LONG AS THEY ARE GOING TO CONTINUE TO WORK ON THE GAME AS HARD IN EITHER EVENT, if they released a game as soon as they had implemented the majority of their internal thoughts, to expose it to as many other people as possible...makes the game available sooner to those who like it in that form, and better for those who want to have input into changing it, and better for those who want it to be the best game possible in as short a period of time as possible.  And I would encourage them (again, subject to the cap locked text abovr), to cintune to do that, and I would encourage potential players to WANT that, rather than complain about it.  Reductio ad absurdum assumes things are taken to "a logical conclusion" - my logical conclusion is as outlined above, not to "when it compiles".

And I believe this release fits those parameters, so was "logical" and preferable for all involved to the alternative of waiting for 6 months.

"Besides, Elemental wasn't released "early". It was released when it had to be released. It's not like they sat there and went "Ah f**k it, let's just get it out and we can patch it up later". They had a deadline that had to be hit and one that couldn't be pushed farther."

Agree...my use of "early" was in reference to other's apparent perception.  I believe if they had a continuos window, they could have perhaps worked internally to flesh out their own thoughts a bit longer.  however, given only 2 choices..now or Feb 2011...and given that fleshing out their internal work was closer to completed than "needs 6 months", the choice of now over 6 months was correct and beneficial for all.  Hence the thought that people clamoring that they should have waited 6 months are not being logical.

"The problem I have is that when I pay $50 for a game, I expect it to be complete - not the utter mess that the current game is. If I wanted to wait until February to play it, I would have kept my money until February."

I understand...and you would have had $50.025 in Fenruary, and would have spent the money then, and had a game that was in worse shape than it will be in Febuary under the current process....I am claiming you are better off under this approach, if you don't get emotional and frustrated, but simply walk away from the game and come back clean in Febuary.

"People who wanted access to the game (ie: people who like the game in your breakdown) already had it. It was called beta. Some of us have been playing the game for *months* through the public beta process."

Yes, agree.  (One of) My point(s) is the "release beta" is better/more likely to improve the game faster than the "beta beta", so the release now rather than the continued beta testing is better for all involved...or at least, from a "real" perspective, no worse..for those that pre-ordered/joined the beta.  That seems like an axiom.  The trickier part is that I think it is also better for people who paid their money now, rather than keeping their money until Febuary..i.e. were "forced" to pay to join the beta.....while emotional that "force" seems wrong and upsetting, in practice paying your money 6 months earlier ACTUALLY helps you get a better game by Febuary, and is in fact worth the expenditure early.  A tough one emotionally, but beneficial in the end.

"It also doesn't help Stardock. Reviews in the 8 or 9 range and awards are good for a game. Reviews in the 5 or 6 range with articles telling people flat out to avoid it right now are not."

Again, true, but only because the review process is flawed.  Should be a constant review of games to update for patches, etc.  many games are bad at launch, but improve greatly over time, and players miss a lot of enjoyment by relying on early reviews.  Even good games often get better (FFH for Civ).  So getting a bad review doesn't hurt the game from a players perspective, and the players shouldn't get crazy about it.  i agree it hurts the creator/publisher, but that's Stardock's call.....players shouldn't be upset about it, Stardock should..so it makes little sense for players to be expressing as much unhappiness about how th release should have been delayed.  The only "real" downside I see for players is fewer players buy the game if it's reviewed badly = less mp and less modding, but seems like the hard-core modders will be in this game anyways due to the focus on mod tools.  And I must admit I play sp, so perhaps am not sensative enough  on the mp player hit?

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September 2, 2010 12:51:30 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

There's a fine line between flaming the game, and flaming Stardock.

Let me answer you with a far fetched example:

Imagine you would buy a new car at your local Volkswagen or Ford-dealer. After driving off the parking lot you realize that there is some issue with the steering wheel and that the engine overheats very quickly [... so something like an unpolished UI and a memory leak.] Confronting the salesman with this he answers you "Oh, sorry. We did not realize this when we introduced the car yesterday. Must have gone past quality assurance undetected. ..." *he goes to the phone and comes back* "But they tell me, it will be fixed in a month. But in the meantime you can naturally drive with the car and enjoy it as much as you can." [... the accidental break-down on the way to an important meeting included.]

So, who would you blame: 1) the car (i.e. the game), 2) the car-dealer (i.e. your local games retailer in this example) or 3) the car manufacturer (i.e. Stardock)? I think we know, what most people would pick.

And yes, I know, linking computer games and cars is VERY VERY far fetched. But the basic underlying principle is nevertheless the same. You should not sell an unfinished or broken good. Never ever. Offering, as in the case of Stardock, a much appreciated commitment to fix things and even improve the final product does not help with this.

So I understand it, why people not only flame the game, but also Stardock ... even if I don't do so.

Rabenhoff

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September 2, 2010 12:54:26 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Again, true, but only because the review process is flawed. Should be a constant review of games to update for patches

This is just not feasible

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September 2, 2010 12:59:16 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

But the basic underlying principle is nevertheless the same. You should not sell an unfinished or broken good. Never ever.

But here's where a car analogy once again fails - if a car is badly designed, it potentially fails for everyone (see mass recalls of Toyota every other week). In case of Elemental, it doesn't fail for everyone. Some people have issues, others don't. Some people like what's there, others don't. It's not so black and white that you can undeniably state the game is "broken". There are a lot of people who don't like it, but also a lot of people who do. And unlike a car, if Elemental works, it's going to keep working. But if your car model gets recalled, you have no idea if yours will keep working or break. It might, it might not.

There's a reason why the car analogies are so far fetched

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September 2, 2010 1:01:44 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

The money issue is missing the biggest piece of all, it's not just the $50 or whatever, or the silly interest gained until Feb or whenever it could have been released, it's the frustration, I've paid money to be weighed down with frustration at both a poor purchase (that happens sometimes, it sucks but whatever) and then the added frustration of even coming to realize that yeah, this thing is broke and I haven't had any fun and yeah I guess it's time to go try and get a refund, that just blows man, there's no way to argue that point and it's different for different people, you might be thrilled at what has transpired, but I'm not and a lot of others aren't and no it's not good for business.

It's my time man, my time is invaluable, and granted I'm blowing more time explaining this to you, but I think it's a point worth making, my time has been wasted, not just my money, and a fair amount of it, trying to look past the issues, drinking the kool-aid and trying my damnedest to see what folks like you are seeing, but I'm just not (and it's not just me), it sucks, time more than money lost, sucks. If you enjoy it, awesome, I'm actually envious, i wish I could enjoy it, but I can't, oh well, I'm glad someone out there likes this game as is

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September 2, 2010 1:07:47 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

The game got released early because of the people who got pissed about how they might have to wait longer for the game. It was a lot of people. Don't compare cars to games, games aren't exactly goods. They are, but they are a very different type of good. If you want to be that over dramatic about comparisons, then why not say "Releasing the game early is kinda like murdering someone, you finish them before their time came so it's just like stardock murdered everyone of us."

 

This game isn't abysmal. There have been PLENTY of games released in worse conditions that were praised by thousands. This game is playable for a lot of us, it's got bugs like every game that has come out lately. Since 2008 PC games have been having quality control issues everywhere because of the insane amount of hardware out there. Stardock made a game meant to run on hardware that's new and hardware that's from 5ish years ago. Not to mention a single random background service on your computer can royally screw over performance in some games due to compatibility.

 

Gameplay bugs, they don't seem to happen to everyone. To fix these, stardock needs help from you guys getting the bugs. Save games, crash logs, game logs, descriptions of exactly what happened when it happens. A lot of us aren't getting these bugs, which means a lot of the guys at stardock probably didn't get the bugs either. So be helpful, don't be a whiny ***** about it.

 

The game runs fine for me, slow performance in the late game, but Civ 4 still has crappy performance for me late game and that came out awhile ago. The game has content, it has a campaign, but all I keep hearing from everyone is that they "Just want a little bit more!" or there are too many bugs. The game content wise is fine, it's fun when it works which happens to some and not others. But it can be fixed, stop acting like you just got screwed over by a massive corporation that's laughing it's way to the bank with your soul.

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September 2, 2010 1:10:51 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I understand if a company releases a game that's not ready, takes your money, and walks away...that REALLY sucks, and no one wants to support the trend of companies doing that. But no one, even those who hate the game in it's current form, appears to think Stardock is going to do that.

I don't trust them to fix the game later anymore than they would have trusted me to pay them later for it. They released patches for GalCiv 2 for years but it seemed like each one broke as much as it fixed, indeed the last one just left with the human AI not building any offensive ships for most of the game. There are glaringly bad gameplay bugs in this game, I run in to my own sovereign doppelgangers in this game running rival nations. Do I trust a company that promised not to release this game until it was finished to finish the game they released? No, I don't. I think they will run it as a side project they sink the odd man-hour in, which is what the GalCiv 2 patching seemed to me.

This was a bad experience, I expected to be playing the game I am currently playing 6 months ago in the beta.

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