migonzales

Join Date 04/2008

[Gameplay] Make Shards Neutral

One of my biggest complaints about the magic system in Elemental is that there is no reason to specialize in any particular spellbook (fire, air, etc.). The shard mechanic actually discourages players from specializing in specific magic books because you don't know what shard(s) will pop up close to your starting position. To make the magic system more interesting, there should be tactical and strategic incentive to NOT select every spellbook during character generation. Two complementary ways to do this would be to allow players to put multiple character points into a particular spellbook and to MAKE SHARDS NEUTRAL. (Additionally, better/unique/more diverse spells in each book are also needed but thats an entirely different post).

Putting multiple character points into a single spellbook should give a multiplier to magic from that book. 1 point gives a 1x multiplier (base) 2 points could give 1.25x, 3 points gives 1.5, etc. For tactical spells the multiplier could apply to damage, duration, and/or range. For strategic spells the multiplier could apply to stats of summoned creatures, or % increases in effects. This would allow for some meaningful decisions to be made during character generation and if this game is missing anything it's the ability to make meaningful decisions.

To truly make specialization successful shards should be made neutral, ie they give bonuses to any type of magic. That way you don't have to worry about selecting only the fire book and find that the only fire shard is on the other side of the map from you. If shards were neutral they could also be a much more scarce resource. 8 neutral shards would be the same as 32 elemental shards and that would make each shard much more of a focal point of the map. I'd me much more likely to go to war with a powerful neighbor over a neutral shard that would help me vs a elemental shard that would give me nothing.

Just some ideas to throw out there. I know I've seen versions of the spellbook thing out there before but I think it goes hand in hand with making shards neutral. Without neutral shards there is a severe disincentive to specialize in magic. Thoughts?

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Just thought of something else to go with this too. Element specific shrines could be built on neutral shards to make them provide element specific bonuses. Build a fire shrine on a shard and now it acts just like a fire shard. This would be a way to maintain the element specific nature of shards but removes some of the randomness.

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Or... a way that can be implemented right now:

Let spells get 3/4 of their bonus (damage or whatever) from the correct shards but

1/4 from the total number of all shards.

That's just a change to the formula in the spell XML and removes some randomness while not leaving you with zero bonus from having all "wrong" shards.

In theory that's the exact same bonus it is now because there are 4x as many "general" shards as there are "correct" shards.

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I'd appreciate it if no one kicked me for suggesting this, but what if people didn't start with any spellbooks? I am thinking that have of the fun is building and creating your character. So, to that end, during character creation, instead of buying spell books, why not purchase some thing like Magic Affinity or Magic levels? Or, even better, base the max level of spells on what your Wisdom is. It's pretty much useless right now. A base 10 gives what would be if you didn't have any spellbooks, like my characters, at the beginning.

Then, during magic research, based off the shard you get, if any, you start in that school. Basically it's a tech that opens up because you now have access to a that shard. Then, you go about researching spells as normal. To get to higher level spells, one needs to invest in Wisdom for the understanding and usage of magic. Personally, I think they should also change Intelligence to Channeling. The stat isn't so much a measure of computing power, so to speak, but your ability to handle power levels and mana. I think they may have gotten to RPG centered since there currently isn't any use for a brainchild in Elemental.

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h, based off the shard you get, if any, you start in that school. Basically it's a tech that opens up because you now have access to a that shard. Then, you go about researching spells as normal. To get to higher level spells, one needs to invest in Wisdom for the understanding and usage of magic. Personally, I think they should also change Intelligence to Channeling. The stat isn't so much a measure of computing power, so to speak, but your ability to handle power levels and mana. I think they may have gotten to RPG centered since th

This would make shards much more strategic.

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I agree that having to research the elemental (fire/water/air/earth) spellbooks would encourage specialization once you have learned which shards you started nearby. But I actually like being able to customize your character according to which spells you will get. But nothing would prevent splitting spells into other spellbook choices at character generation. For example, you could be choosing between Enchantment, Summoning (would need to be nerfed), Combat spells, etc...

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I think it makes more sense to get your books from techs, quests, and from the creation screen, a choice of one book that you get to start from. The idea of a neutral shard system was thrown around alot in the Beta, but fell short to make any sense as it was trying to solve the problem of resource distribution by ruining core lore of the game and book. I have finished a really good map for 1.06 that gives a fair distribution of shards and at the same time forces sovs to expand in order to attain the shards they picked books for. But really it doesn't matter becasue every book is useful even if you don't have a shard, especially since the summons book is so much more usefull than anything else right now. I think it makes sense to hold off on the OP's ideas until we get the new magic system and see where we are then.

Keep in mind you are free to make your own magic books and make them available anywhere in the game you would like.

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I think one of the biggest issues currently is that shards are required to do any sort of competitive damage to physical attacks. If shards provided a much smaller bonus, but the base spell damage scaled nicely, then shards would fit in much nicer, I think. I do agree that starting out with basically all the spellbooks cheapens things a bit. I'd rather just have a basic spellbook, and the rest found in-game.

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Wintersong

Join Date 07/2006

+235

Neutral Shards? imho, no.

Lets' say that there are 4 books (life/death don't count, neither special ones) you can have. Now, inflating numbers just because:

4 books and a Fire Shard = fire spells + 25%

3 books (one being Fire) and a Fire Shard = fire spells + 50%

2 books (one being Fire) and a Fire Shard = fire spells + 75%

1 book (the Fire one, obviously) and a Fire Shard = fire spells + 100%

Something in those lines I could agree with. In the end is about specialization. If you get points to spend in Book levels, it would be similar. The more you focus in a type of magic, the more benefit you get from the proper Shard. And one could say "But if I specialize myself and don't find such shard, I'm screwed!". Yes, and if you find it you rock.

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I Like this Idea... Also would like to be able to make a Fire Mage that was weak to water.. just for fun..

Some of the stuff I talked about here https://forums.elementalgame.com/394749 Lol dont want to retype it all..

Elemental Affinity , Acts like one elemental shard of that type:

Elemental Weakness , Take 10% more damage form this Elemental Type, Get 50% of the shard bonus for this Elemental type Shards

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what about

Make some shards neutral (but half strength)
Have a magic tech that allows you to get some benefit from a non aligned shard
Have some magic tech that allows you to get an additional bonus from an aligned shard (building upgrade to the existing building)
Have something that allows you to convert/retune one shard into another type.

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I would let the shards as they are personnaly.

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Quoting Wintersong,

reply 8

Neutral Shards? imho, no.

And one could say "But if I specialize myself and don't find such shard, I'm screwed!". Yes, and if you find it you rock.

Which is all well and good in real life but in a game who wants a 75% chance of being screwed from turn 0? As I understand it, shards are supposed to be rare and powerful. However in games, rare and powerful often = unbalanced. On the other hand, if shards aren't rare and powerful then they are boring. If shards remain rare then something like this idea from Robert might work.

Or... a way that can be implemented right now:

Let spells get 3/4 of their bonus (damage or whatever) from the correct shards but

1/4 from the total number of all shards.

If you balance the numbers right then a character specializing in fire magic but with a non-fire shard could still have more powerful fire magic than a non-specialized character with a fire shard. That way, instead of being screwed by your starting position, you just don't rock as hard as you could have with a fire shard.

Alternatively (or maybe additionally), If shards become more common to insure that everybody is at least somewhat close to every elemental shard, then the cost of bringing a shard under your control should be much much higher. How about if shards cost essence to control? That would make you think twice about which shards to control and if you wanted to focus on all of one element or not. As it is now, the cost of 100g to build on a shard is trivial. So, you just go around building on any shard you can find. If the cost was much higher, it would be a serious decision as to what shard you would build on. As I said before, this game needs the opportunity for players to make more meaningful decisions. Not only what to build but also what not to build.

Of course this is all moot if there is no reason to specialize in less than all of the spell books. As I see it, if there is the ability to select spell books then there should be a real reason to not select all of them. Otherwise, why bother to have spell book selection at all. There also needs to be a reason to select all of them if thats how you would like to play. It should be a strategic decision that has real game changing consequences either way.

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