Tom Chick's "review"

By on August 28, 2010 3:49:12 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

thebigJ_A

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I put "review" in quotations because it's not, really. Mr. Chick explains as much himself. What it is, though, is a fascinating look at the game from a game reviewer who apparently has a working history with Mr. Wardell. I think it's a good read.

 

I wonder if Frogboy has seen it, and if he'd weigh in.

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August 28, 2010 9:11:59 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting Corbeaubm,

Quoting surlybob, reply 13
Polish costs money. Blizzard has huge budgets and masses of developers to throw at their projects. When they make a release, they can do so in confidence, because they know that the bought-and-paid-for gaming press will lavish anything they make with praise and it'll sell a bajillion copies. Indies like Stardock, however, do not have unlimited budgets, have little to no influence in the gaming press and can't even get retailers to honor street dates. Their games are ignored when they are good or mediocre and relentlessly attacked whenever they have bugs/imbalances. It's a cycle that secures the dominance of the crapware peddlers.

Elemental is not a perfect game, but I promise that if it were being published by Valve or Blizzard, the mags would be falling over each other to praise it.
Call me strange, but I don't think that games lacking polish should be excused due to lack of developer resources.  It's called designing within your constraints, a lesson that any strategy gamer is forced to learn.  Elemental lacks polish.  Period.  You can't get around that fact.  It's not some massive conspiracy to say that Elemental is less polished than SC2.  That's just how it is right now.

Attacking the strawman of the gaming press isn't a compelling argument; we can all sit down, play the game, and see the state that Elemental is in.  I'm not talking about why the press expresses their opinions; I'm talking about how we, as gamers, evaluate the games we play.  We can see that Elemental flat out isn't a finished product at this time, regardless of the reasons for that state of affairs or the reasons why the press echoes that claim.

sc2 is hardly well realized, imbalanced, missing units, achievements broken, buggy pathing of units, piss poor AI.  Oh.. and no chatting or decent game search features.

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August 28, 2010 10:28:25 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting surlybob,
It's a sad day when games are proclaimed unfocused mish-mashes because they don't play or function like every other game in the genre. When a game that introduced zero innovation to the genre (SC2) gets praised and a game that is trying to shake up the genre (4X) is criticized for lack of "focus", how will game developers react? More innovation or more cookie-cutter crap? Game innovation is like stand up comedy, you gotta take risks and sometimes you just bomb. Sometimes you get heckled and you lash out. I don't want a world where all comics are like Jay Leno and all game developers are like Blizzard.

 

agreed.

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August 28, 2010 10:31:36 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Dethedrus,
Unit design?  Awesome idea!  Too bad it has no real effect on gameplay and ends up being a confusing mess insofar as costs.  You're better off just pumping out run of the mill squads of peasants or archers and just calling it a day.

 

I've heard this complaint many times on here and I don't get it.  How is it worse than Galciv 2's ship design...?  It's mostly cosmetic and for fun.  Then you put the weapons on.  GC2 has three weapon types, Elemental has at least that many.  So why is everyone whining about unit design?

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August 28, 2010 10:34:23 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Voqar,
Critics love SC2 because it's an incredibly good game 

 

Umm, no.  Critics love SC2 because they're in bed with big developers.  SC2, after the huge wait and build up, feels like a 5 year old game.  It literally is SC1 with better graphics, and THAT is a problem.

 

**sorry for the tri-post**

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August 28, 2010 10:36:21 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I hope that Stardock (and their fanboys) don't take reviews like this the wrong way.  They need to listen and work to fix it rather than be offended.  Another accurate review.  EWOM can be an awesome game, but there is still a lot of work to be done.

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August 28, 2010 10:48:29 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting sicjake,
Had I never purchased GalCiv, and if Elemental was my first Stardock game, I'd be pretty upset at my purchase, but I'm not, again only based on Frogboy's dedication to their games long term that I experienced with GCII.

I mentioned this elsewhere, but I think Stardock's problem at the moment is that they're now a rookie player in the big leagues (thanks to Sins of Solar Empire's widespread popularity) but they're still operating like they're an unknown indie developer with a small but fanatically loyal fan base.  They'll need to step up their game (figuratively and literally) if they want to continue competing at this level.

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August 28, 2010 11:03:16 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Umm, no. Critics love SC2 because they're in bed with big developers. SC2, after the huge wait and build up, feels like a 5 year old game. It literally is SC1 with better graphics, and THAT is a problem.


No they're not, Critics give the big developers better reviews because in general the big developers make better games. As much as I love the fact that indie developers explore new and interesting game ideas, the fact of the matter is that indie games are very often buggy unfinished messes.

You can whine all you want about AAA games not being original enough for your taste, but you can't complain about them being bad games, because they're not(as a rule, there are of-course AAA games that suck aswell, but they tend to get bad reviews which refutes the entire big dev = good review theory of yours).

sc2 is hardly well realized, imbalanced, missing units, achievements broken, buggy pathing of units, piss poor AI.  Oh.. and no chatting or decent game search features.

Are you drunk?

Anyhow I agree with the "review", this game has the potential to be really fun, but at the moment it's very disjointed and unpolished and lacks replay value once you realize how little actually matters.

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August 28, 2010 11:15:33 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Mtn_Man,

I mentioned this elsewhere, but I think Stardock's problem at the moment is that they're now a rookie player in the big leagues (thanks to Sins of Solar Empire's widespread popularity) but they're still operating like they're an unknown indie developer with a small but fanatically loyal fan base.  They'll need to step up their game (figuratively and literally) if they want to continue competing at this level.

Yeah, I agree with that totally. Sins did really well and brought a lot of attention. Some of those people then decided to check out other Stardock published games like GC2, which by that point was in really good shape. So they come in expecting that.

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August 28, 2010 11:18:46 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

I agree with Chick's point about the game manual.   The game manual that was made for Dominions 3 is how a manual should be. 

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August 28, 2010 11:21:21 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting charon2112,

I've heard this complaint many times on here and I don't get it.  How is it worse than Galciv 2's ship design...?  It's mostly cosmetic and for fun.  Then you put the weapons on.  GC2 has three weapon types, Elemental has at least that many.  So why is everyone whining about unit design?

That's not really true. GC2 just gives you space and you can go nuts. You can make planetary defense ships with no (or minimal) engines and stupid amounts of guns. You can make ships with tons of armor. You can make ships that go really fast. You can make armored transports or what amounts to a flying school bus for invasions. The customizations let you make functionally different ships and do matter.

In Elemental, you're limited to one weapon and certain gear slots. The weapons don't give special abilities or things that would really distinguish them. The main decision is "bow or mace".

If I had a choice between say a +6 bow or a +3 Frost Arrow bow, that would be interesting. But instead I have a +6 bow and a +3 bow... and why the hell would I ever not use the +6 bow?

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August 28, 2010 12:08:32 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Mtn_Man,

Quoting sicjake, reply 25Had I never purchased GalCiv, and if Elemental was my first Stardock game, I'd be pretty upset at my purchase, but I'm not, again only based on Frogboy's dedication to their games long term that I experienced with GCII.
I mentioned this elsewhere, but I think Stardock's problem at the moment is that they're now a rookie player in the big leagues (thanks to Sins of Solar Empire's widespread popularity) but they're still operating like they're an unknown indie developer with a small but fanatically loyal fan base.  They'll need to step up their game (figuratively and literally) if they want to continue competing at this level.

 

I think you have hit the nail on the head with this. Very insightful (not being sarcastic this time).

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August 28, 2010 12:23:07 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

As I've played Elemental in the past week, I can't help but feel an overwhelming, almost crushing sense of déjà vu. I go back to the way I felt with those early builds of Galactic Civilizations II. It's sometimes exciting, sometimes frustrating, and sometimes daunting. It's equal parts learning a poorly documented but cool game and trying to read the mind of Brad Wardell. When I'm trying to figure something out - caravans, the tech tree, tactical combat, the magic system, hero builds, inventories, that unexplained icon in the corner of the screen - I feel a bit lost and helpless. I can't be sure there's a consistent system at work, or if it's properly implemented yet. When I don't understand something, is it a "me" problem or an Elemental problem? I have no way of knowing.

That's a terrible place for a game to put a player. Especially for a game that asks you to make decisions. The pre-requisite for making a decision in a strategy game is that it should be based on information. Blind decisions are the stuff of Roshambo or role-playing.

 

For me, this is the most damning part of the review.

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August 28, 2010 12:41:10 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I thought Tom's review was spot-on.  This game has a fantastic array of design elements, just about everything you could wish for in a turn-based strategy game.  However, none of them are polished and done.  They all need some work.  Moreover, the way they interact together needs at least one major balance pass.

 

Elemental is a decent game now.  The potential for a great game is clear.  Happily, Stardock's record and stated intentions indicate that it will receive the support it both needs and deserves.

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August 28, 2010 1:49:35 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Spicy Mike,

But the criticism about magic is valid, in my opinion.  MoM only had 6 schools of magic (1 generic, 5 specific), and only had about 50 spells for each of the 5 specialty schools.  In Elemental, there doesn't seem to be that feeling of 'specialization' about having a school of magic.  There is no difference other than visual between some of the spells.

It's a minor point, but both MOM and Heroes4 ripped off Magic: The Gathering. This is not bad because M:TG has evolved, over years, to be quite consistent and with specialised colors of magic. Early releases were all over the place, with green (Nature) direct damage spells, blue direct damage, etc. MOM and Heroes4 did a good job ripping off M:TG. You can't "just ripoff", it's more like translation between game systems and requires skill. Most games don't go through the effort needed to create a good magic system, even if it's a ripoff.

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August 28, 2010 2:27:16 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Well, if we only "watch" games and don't "buy" them, then how long before even independent design houses dry up and we have no PC games left at all to play except shooters and click fests?

I agree that Elemental very much seems to reflect Brad's mindset, visions and preferences.  In that sense it is hard to compare it to other games that reach broad audiences.  Brad has a small design and development team and uses nonprofessional beta testers (i.e. early purchasers) to help smooth out the rough spots in the game.  The release product shows it to be unfinished, but yet basically on track to be a fine game with a great deal of mod friendliness.  I'd expect this from an indie release from a developer who is as experienced as is Brad. 

Knowing that, to encourage the public not to buy a game because it is only partly done (but still playable) is in a sense wishing death upon small indie developers.  If you want a finished product, go buy one of the Civ games, or Paradox or TW...oh, wait, none of them were without some issues upon release.  Hell, some of the latter two company's releases were virtually betas at release, with real gameplay and stability issues.  But if one held off buying them for a while until they were patched into better condition, their large development houses would shake it off as a bad month or quarter and go on.  Indie developers can't as easily withstand a buying public that is holding back their purchases until a sufficient number of "gaming guru's" on the Internet finally give the game a thumbs up.

I think reviewers need to keep these things in mind lest they throw out the baby with the bathwater.  Not all developers are the same, not all games are the same and not all gamers are the same.  If I were Tom Chick, I would have definitely told those that believe in Stardock and in Elemental to go right ahead and buy the game now - "come on in, the water's fine!"  And to those who want/expect a more perfect product, I'd still have encouraged a bit of patience and advised them to consider a purchase soon, if not now.

Am I a fanboy?  Yes, I suppose you could say so.  But at the same time I do expect to get my money's worth out of a game.  I too want bugs fixed, features worked out, AI to kick my butt even on normal.  So I will complain when need be and write my gripes in the forums.  Same with my suggestions.  With many commercial gaming houses, that would be like a waste of my time.  In this case, I have few worries.  Most things will be fixed given time.  I might have to dig around to find out some things about how the game plays or what certain game elements do exactly, but I've had to do that with many other games too.  The main thing is that this game concept "feels right" to me and I have confidence in its developer to stick with his game and make it constantly better.  I want it to succeed.  I just fear that a lot of negative comparisons to games that have little in common with this one or to its indie origin, and that don't take into account its designers' unique place in the gaming world, will eventually make this gaming house dry up and go away some day, just like many others have.  And that would be a sad day indeed.

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August 28, 2010 2:42:11 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

He's right, that's not a review you'll get from random game journalist.

I think the game is somewhat more focused in it's current state than he gives it credit for; and I disagree that it's necessarily just a game you should watch for now. It's quickly growing on me, as games are meaty and I get the same almost dizzying sense of tunnel vision playing Elemental that I did with the "finished" builds of Gal Civ2. 5 hours of Elemental and my brain is on fire.

So he had to go with something, and I find it interesting that knowing Stardock and having worked with them, he recommends wait. Perhaps it's to spare people any frustration or disappointment they might feel. Having been here for the Day 0 build, I think I'm past those things now and I can honestly say I'm enjoying the game. I agree with him on most of the general interpretations of the game and Stardock, but I think Elemental is quickly going to become playable by most standards.

Still, it's a lesson for Stardock that there are repercussions for the way you choose to develop and release games.

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August 28, 2010 2:42:39 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Surlybob:

Polish costs money. Blizzard has huge budgets and masses of developers to throw at their projects. When they make a release, they can do so in confidence, because they know that the bought-and-paid-for gaming press will lavish anything they make with praise and it'll sell a bajillion copies.

Let's even assume Blizzard games are successful with press now because they're made by famous Blizzard. How do you think they've arrived at their current position ?

2) By polishing less than perfect games until they're at least enjoyable

1) By not releasing broken games. Here's the list of games Blizzard worked on, but cancelled so as to not damage their reputation:

  • Games People Play
  • Crixa
  • Shattered Nations
  • Pax Imperia
  • Denizen
  • Warcraft Adventures
  • Nomad
  • Raiko

Blizzard felt these games were not good enough to be released. They would cause brand damage. It's unfortunate Stardock thinks otherwise. But they will pay the price.

Gatt9:

RTS(And FPS) are one-trick ponies.  They're pretty much fully exploited because they're very simplistic and because by nature,  there's little room for innovation.  The speed at which they play inherently prevents complex systems from being introduced.

Incorrect.

Being interested in the genre, I can give you a list of highly innovative FPS games, even modern ones. Thief (stealth as the main mechanic), System Shock 1 and 2 (rpg elements), Half Life 1 (unprecedensed focus on story), Portal (a game you claim impossible - a puzzle), Team Fortress 2 (the unreleased one, not the cartoon one. The one whose many features like medic revives ended up in later games like Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory), Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory (character progression in multiplayer, xp as a way to promote team behaviour), Natural Selection and C&C Renegade (Mix of RTS and FPS, you build, defend and destroy bases), Starsiege: Tribes (vector-based movement, prediction, unique movement), Mirror's Edge (movement). For what it's worth, Borderlands and Counterstrike did something new too. And there just was a Zero-G shooter too.

In case of FPS, it's publishers' fault. They go for the lowest common denominator. There's plenty of innovation to be had in FPS games, just look at mods. Modern game development is dominated by Hollywood-style obsession with presentation and good graphics at the cost of everything else. You can't compete with biggest players in this field unless you have heaps of money.

I have a quote for you:

For example, Red Alert 3 could be relatively hardcore in that if you rolled out with a huge army and it was the /wrong/ huge army you could get crushed. We went for lower lethality this time. Even if you roll out with the wrong army here you can still feel like you are having an impact on the battlefield. It just lets a few more people in.

http://rockpapershotgun.com/rpsforum/topic.php?id=2093

I honestly don't think it needs it needs further comment, but I like to drive the point home.

As for RTS, strategy games are perceived as something that doesn't sell. They're perceived as something too niche. Besides, they're technically very challenging. A* doesn't cut it in an RTS game, you need something better. A* doesn't account for often predictable movement of other actors. It's full of unsolved scientific problems. Because of the difficulty indie developers have problems entering the field. Total Annihilation proved you can do many innovation, as did Relic with Company of Heroes and Warhammer 1. You just don't see it from Activision, EA, and nowadays - Blizzard. Imagine if you applied the level of interface improvements and automation TA had to other aspects of interface. RTS is faster, but that's what improved interface is for. If I could use a couple of orders to coordinate two separate attacks instead of making sure my army gets through a bridge properly, it would be a completely different world.

-----------------------

Old games were often better because they tended to be made by small groups of people. This is inherently more innovative, and there would be more actual gamers among them. Also, computers back then were used mostly by geeks, so games had to appeal to geeks too. They had to be interesting.

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August 28, 2010 2:45:02 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Corbeaubm,



Quoting surlybob,
reply 17

I'm playing Elemental, and I am quite satisfied with it's "state". Any software product takes time, effort and resources to bring to its full potential. I find it unreasonable for you to expect a small company to produce a game that starts out with as much "polish" as a massive company.


I don't know why you're satisfied with a game in which, demonstrably, a sizable chunk of the mechanics flat out don't function.  I'm not.  Heck, I've seen one-man dev teams churn out more solid, stable, and polished work than this (Cliffski, for example).  Y'know why?  Because they designed within their constraints, making the innovations that mattered and discarding the fluff that didn't.  Elemental will eventually reach that same state of awesome, but that doesn't mean that Elemental is currently a great, or even good, game.  When the time comes, I'll happily call Elemental a fantastic game.  That time has not yet come.

And no, not all games are this big of a mess at release.  I'm hard pressed to recall a game that was actually released in this rough a state, though I admit that I completely avoided Empire: Total War.  I suppose the Myth III release came somewhat close, but that also got slammed for good reason.

I do agree that the gaming press is, generally, useless.  I just don't believe that issue bears on the merits of Elemental as a game.

This.  I think there have been a number of issues blown out of proportion, but it baffles me to see people so ardently defending the state this game was released in.  Not sure if they're trying to justify their purchase, are blinded by their love of Stardock, haven't played a polished game in a long time, or were looking forward to the game so much that they can't come to terms with reality, but it's time to admit it folks...Elemental was released in a playable, but far-from-finished state.  Would I rather play it in an unfinished state than not at all? For $20-30, sure...but not for $50 when I was expecting a finished product.  Lots of games that come out anymore need patching, that's true...but it is very hard to dig up examples of games that require this much work.  The potential is there, the polish and completeness is not.  I will, however, be waiting eagerly for new patches and the first set of worthwhile mods.  The game can only get better from here, and if there is one thing Stardock has proven it is that with time and the player community's help that they are capable of producing some of the best strategy games in the business.  The review the OP referred to I think is spot on.

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August 28, 2010 2:51:44 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Well, if we only "watch" games and don't "buy" them, then how long before even independent design houses dry up and we have no PC games left at all to play except shooters and click fests?

No.  Then all the companies that release unfinished games will be out of business.  Small companies that release reasonably complete and polished games will be fine.  And yes, small companies can release games that are solid at release.  Stardock just chooses not to (after all, Brad has repeatedly said that SD has enough money to release Elemental whenever he felt it was done).

The mess that is Elemental's release is Stardock's choice (or Brad lied to us a lot), not something inherent to all smaller design houses.

If you want a finished product, go buy one of the Civ games, or Paradox or TW...oh, wait, none of them were without some issues upon release.

The problems that Civ4 had (for example) were quite minor compared to what Elemental is currently going through for most people.  Its just not a good comparison.

Lets look at Civ5.  Reviewers were playing essentially complete games of it roughly a month ago and commenting on it.  The major systems seemed to all be in place.  This means that Firaxis was just working on polish like bug squashing and AI and whatnot.  Since Civ5's release is roughly a month away still, this means that they had something like 2 months of polish and AI work.

Compare this to Elemental.  We know that major things were being added roughly a week before release, that many of those things were never tested by the beta testers, and that the AI was thrown in at the very last second (which it had to be since you can't add the AI before all the major systems are in place).  There is just NO WAY that Elemental at release can be anything like Civ5 will be at release just because of the time frames that Stardock choose to go with.

Thats why you can expect games like Civ5 to have a reasonable release which Elemental just did not have.

 

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August 28, 2010 2:58:30 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

It's worth mentioning, this is the biggest thing Stardock has ever tried to do at release. What they'd done in the past has worked for them as one of the bigger indie houses, but back then they'd never had to defend themselves against comparisons to Blizzard. That would be like comparing the Jamaican military to the Chinese.

But now they've waded into the AAA market, with AAA prices and AAA expectations. Average joe gamer doesn't know or ultimately care who Stardock is or what they intended, they only care about the total quality of the product now versus what they paid. (Even if they end up enjoying it later.)

I think Stardock was unprepared for some of the realities of the AAA market, like the premium it places on appearances and release performance. Stardock is ok with releasing games in a state like this because they're confident it will get better, and their hardcore fans back them all the way. The REST of the market, that's supposed to make this a great business venture as opposed to an ok one? They don't have those kinds of assurances or faith. What creates that faith is a stable and solid release that's polished and comes with adequate content.

Even if all 4 of those things aren't absolutely necessary at release for a good game to become a great one, the AAA video game consumer believes they are, and dev houses have to meet that expectation, or prepare for a shitload of criticism.  

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August 28, 2010 3:04:14 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Spicy Mike,


However, the mod-friendliness of the game has a huge amount of potential, and I look forward to seeing what will come from that - no matter if it's from the devs or the players.

 

Not trying to pile on against the Devs, but did we all just pay $50 for MOD TOOLS, in the hopes that one day, non-dev players will mod the game into something more fun (not saying the game isn't fun).  The game does, in fact, have massive potential for greatness, and I know Brad and co. are hard at work realizing that dream.  But the game I just paid $50 for is not that game(yet), though I'm not saying is a pile of doo either.  1.05 made huge strides in bringing up game play and stability.  I have yet to install 1.06 as I want to finish a game I'm working on and I've heard 1.06 breaks those saves, so maybe things are even better!  But for all the progress with Elemental, I would still argue 1994's MoM is a better gaming experience right now. 

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August 28, 2010 3:14:52 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting b0rsuk,
Surlybob:




Let's even assume Blizzard games are successful with press now because they're made by famous Blizzard. How do you think they've arrived at their current position ?

2) By polishing less than perfect games until they're at least enjoyable

1) By not releasing broken games. Here's the list of games Blizzard worked on, but cancelled so as to not damage their reputation:






Games People Play
Crixa
Shattered Nations
Pax Imperia
Denizen
Warcraft Adventures
Nomad
Raiko




Blizzard felt these games were not good enough to be released. They would cause brand damage. It's unfortunate Stardock thinks otherwise. But they will pay the price.


 

You do realilze that the majority of studious cannot do what blizzard does.  They have huge successes on afew games that gives them a very large bank deposit to draw on, hell look what they draw from world of warcraft every day....not a fair anlogy at all.

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August 28, 2010 3:25:48 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Point in fact though, the game had a second release date already allotted for it. Waiting until 2011 was not only doable, it was budgeted for. They could have waited at least that long.

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August 28, 2010 3:28:12 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting Rune_74,

Quoting b0rsuk, reply 42Surlybob:


Games People Play
Crixa
Shattered Nations
Pax Imperia
Denizen
Warcraft Adventures
Nomad
Raiko

Also Sid Meier's Dinosaur game. Blizzard's Ghost. 

While I agree big backed studios have a bit more leeway, I don't get the sense that funding was SD's problem. Frogboy did mention somewhere that they actually came in UNDER their estimated 5 mil budget. The issue here is not scrapping the game but just taking the time to get it right.

Quoting Nenjin,
Point in fact though, the game had a second release date already allotted for it. Waiting until 2011 was not only doable, it was budgeted for. They could have waited at least that long.

Bingo. I think someone somewhere panicked when they looked at the fall AAA release list. They wanted to get into consumer's sights during the summer doldrums before the shelves were cluttered. They could have waited until after those games died down. A quality game would have still sold well. besides Civ5 they really had no other competitor and TBS fans generally buy TBS games by the truckload anyways.

Perhaps being a small self-publishing studio has advantages, but here it was real disadvantage. Gievn how bad distribution has been for them they could have trumped their "sales via Impulse only" as a marketing gimmick (eco-friendly, no pre-order hoopla, worldwide availability) and being all avant garde and made their own schedule.

RAT

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August 28, 2010 3:28:58 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Double post

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