The Epic Feel Is Lacking: Small Armies and DnD Parties

By on August 24, 2010 2:12:31 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

jscott991

Join Date 06/2003
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I've been concerned about this for months.  In fact, it caused me to sit out the beta and delay my preorder until last week.  And after playing for most of yesterday evening and getting deep into one sandbox game, I realized I was right to be concerned.

The game lacks an epic feel.  Most of the game feels like me and a small adventuring party running around conquering other empires. (How 4-6 guys could take over an entire empire is beyond me, but it's pretty routine in Elemental.)  The armies are simply too small to give the game much of a grand strategy feel.  I know the culprit: tactical battles.  But I don't know why the presentation has to emphasize the idea that I have a few soldiers, fewer adventurers, and a couple of hundred peasants in my "grand fantasy empire."

An infamous early screenshot showed a dragon dealing with what looks like hundreds of armored soldiers.  I have seen nothing like that in Elemental (but I knew not to really).  Battles are between a few units on each side.  In the early game, it's my channeler casting chain lightning and killing 4 spiders (or whatever) over and over.  The few troops walking around with her feel like bodyguards or traveling companions, not an army.

The game never feels like I'm ruling an empire.  There aren't enough cities.  It feels like a small band of people gathering together for protection; a scenario not unlike the classic "DnD party finds a refugee camp and does quests to help" adventure.

I'm not sure how to fix this.  You could change the graphical presentation to make soldiers look more like units than individuals (something that sort of happens later in the game, which only emphasizes the small scale of the early game).  It could be more clear than 1 pop unit in a city isn't just 1 person.  Heroes could be scaled back to where they aren't slaughtering what might be considered a squad or regiment of troops.

This is my major disappointment with Elemental.  I just don't feel like I'm playing a grand strategy game.  I feel more like I'm coordinating a couple of small adventuring groups around a tiny country with a few villages here and there where I can recruit other party members.

It really eliminates immersion.

 

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August 24, 2010 2:18:29 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting ,

I've been concerned about this for months.  In fact, it caused me to sit out the beta and delay my preorder until last week.  And after playing for most of yesterday evening and getting deep into one sandbox game, I realized I was right to be concerned.

The game lacks an epic feel.  Most of the game feels like me and a small adventuring party running around conquering other empires. (How 4-6 guys could take over an entire empire is beyond me, but it's pretty routine in Elemental.)  The armies are simply too small to give the game much of a grand strategy feel.  I know the culprit: tactical battles.  But I don't know why the presentation has to emphasize the idea that I have a few soldiers, fewer adventurers, and a couple of hundred peasants in my "grand fantasy empire."

An infamous early screenshot showed a dragon dealing with what looks like hundreds of armored soldiers.  I have seen nothing like that in Elemental (but I knew not to really).  Battles are between a few units on each side.  In the early game, it's my channeler casting chain lightning and killing 4 spiders (or whatever) over and over.  The few troops walking around with her feel like bodyguards or traveling companions, not an army.

The game never feels like I'm ruling an empire.  There aren't enough cities.  It feels like a small band of people gathering together for protection; a scenario not unlike the classic "DnD party finds a refugee camp and does quests to help" adventure.

I'm not sure how to fix this.  You could change the graphical presentation to make soldiers look more like units than individuals (something that sort of happens later in the game, which only emphasizes the small scale of the early game).  It could be more clear than 1 pop unit in a city isn't just 1 person.  Heroes could be scaled back to where they aren't slaughtering what might be considered a squad or regiment of troops.

This is my major disappointment with Elemental.  I just don't feel like I'm playing a grand strategy game.  I feel more like I'm coordinating a couple of small adventuring groups around a tiny country with a few villages here and there where I can recruit other party members.

It really eliminates immersion.

 

 

I actually second this feeling. It definitely doesn't have an epic feel to it. Even keeping the unit sizes down to 20 you'd have to boost the size of tactical maps and remove the cap of 10 units per army, raise it to 30 or 40 even. That would require a rebalance of all the unit costs and whatnot as well. Having groups of hundreds or thousands would be great but champions and other single unit groups would have no place in the world at that point. Especially taking up a limited spot in your army.

 

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August 24, 2010 2:19:04 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I prefer smaller armies.

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August 24, 2010 2:25:38 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

When there are less units, each unit becomes important.  This is why specialization and equipment are important for certain play-styles.  Elemental is like MoM and Civ in this regard.

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August 24, 2010 2:28:39 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I think I like the feel of it based on first impressions. You're right, it doesn't feel like massive epic empires (at least on the small maps I've tried so far, haven't tried a large map yet). What it feels like is living on the frontier in an inhospitable land where you and your few country men are battling for survival with enemies and monsters all around. Which still qualifies as an epic feel in my book, just not epic in the sense you mean of a massive scale. Lord of the Rings was epic, but the first book is basically 7 adventurers crossing vast expanses of mostly empty and inhospitable countryside.

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August 24, 2010 2:32:48 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting clockwerk,
When there are less units, each unit becomes important.  This is why specialization and equipment are important for certain play-styles.  Elemental is like MoM and Civ in this regard.

It really isn't anything like Civ or Gal Civ.  In Civ, your president/king/despot/emperor doesn't take to the field and kill a legion or army.  Individual spiders don't kill a pioneer capable of founding a city.

Elemental is supposed to be simulating the reunification of two vast continents and the fight between a number of great races, kingdoms, and empires.  Instead, it seems to be evoking just what the above poster mentions: the trials and tribulations of a group of DnD-style heroes, as they (ludicrously) conquer villages with hundreds of people in order to advance spell research (or whatever).

It just doesn't feel right at all.  They missed the boat on linking their story and inspirations with their actual presentation. But that's just my opinion. 

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August 24, 2010 2:35:41 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

With the right tech you can be fielding a total of 80 men in an army. It really depends on how you opt to play the game though; if you want an epic feel try the master quest victory rather than conquest.

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August 24, 2010 2:37:20 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting Archonsod,
With the right tech you can be fielding a total of 80 men in an army. It really depends on how you opt to play the game though; if you want an epic feel try the master quest victory rather than conquest.

Max size isn't 20 for a unit anymore?

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August 24, 2010 2:53:59 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting jscott991,

Quoting clockwerk, reply 3When there are less units, each unit becomes important.  This is why specialization and equipment are important for certain play-styles.  Elemental is like MoM and Civ in this regard.
It really isn't anything like Civ or Gal Civ.  In Civ, your president/king/despot/emperor doesn't take to the field and kill a legion or army.  Individual spiders don't kill a pioneer capable of founding a city.

Elemental is supposed to be simulating the reunification of two vast continents and the fight between a number of great races, kingdoms, and empires.  Instead, it seems to be evoking just what the above poster mentions: the trials and tribulations of a group of DnD-style heroes, as they (ludicrously) conquer villages with hundreds of people in order to advance spell research (or whatever).

Well, I never commented on whether or not Elemental was like GalCiv.  In Civ, I've always used fewer, high quality units as opposed to a bunch of mediocre ones. 

And in MoM -- you had hero units that were the equivalent of a sovereign that could run around on their own and kill stacks of creatures.  It happened all the time.  Heroes could even take cities on their own if they were buffed or had some nice summon spells (phantom warriors and beasts were effective early on).  As Elemental is loosely based upon MoM, I personally don't have an issue with this.

Elemental is a throwback to days when consumer computer power was limited compared to today.  Game designers had to focus on quality over quantity for the most part.  Today, it's totally opposite.  As long as there are thousands of soldiers on screen, many people don't care too much about depth.

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August 24, 2010 2:56:59 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting clockwerk,
When there are less units, each unit becomes important.  This is why specialization and equipment are important for certain play-styles.  Elemental is like MoM and Civ in this regard.

Unfortunately that is not really the case in Elemental and one of the major problems imo. It worked perfectly in Master of Magic because every single unit, regular or summoned, had at least one special ability, most units had a couple of them, some even up to 10 and more. That really made every creature in the world unique and you had to acknowledge them in order to be successful. In addition, most of the units had certain resistances, immunities and susceptibilities, which determined what kind of magic and attacks were beneficial or not in a specific situation.

All of that is mostly lacking in Elemental and it is one of the main reasons why combat itself, units and the different magical schools cannot convey the feeling that it's either epic or special. Here the strengths and weaknesses of units are only distinguished by their attributes and items and not by their abilities, which offers less tactical variety. Having experienced Master of Magic it is rather disappointing to see that the majority of units don't even have one special ability.

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August 24, 2010 3:01:53 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

i guess people perfer to see stack of 10 guys= 1 unit. I agree that looks cool. The first screenshots were epic awesome. Not sure what happened.

 

Maybe mods?

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August 24, 2010 3:02:54 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting clockwerk,

Quoting jscott991, reply 5
Quoting clockwerk, reply 3When there are less units, each unit becomes important.  This is why specialization and equipment are important for certain play-styles.  Elemental is like MoM and Civ in this regard.
It really isn't anything like Civ or Gal Civ.  In Civ, your president/king/despot/emperor doesn't take to the field and kill a legion or army.  Individual spiders don't kill a pioneer capable of founding a city.

Elemental is supposed to be simulating the reunification of two vast continents and the fight between a number of great races, kingdoms, and empires.  Instead, it seems to be evoking just what the above poster mentions: the trials and tribulations of a group of DnD-style heroes, as they (ludicrously) conquer villages with hundreds of people in order to advance spell research (or whatever).
Well, I never commented on whether or not Elemental was like GalCiv.  In Civ, I've always used fewer, high quality units as opposed to a bunch of mediocre ones. 

And in MoM -- you had hero units that were the equivalent of a sovereign that could run around on their own and kill stacks of creatures.  It happened all the time.  Heroes could even take cities on their own if they were buffed or had some nice summon spells (phantom warriors and beasts were effective early on).  As Elemental is loosely based upon MoM, I personally don't have an issue with this.

Elemental is a throwback to days when consumer computer power was limited compared to today.  Game designers had to focus on quality over quantity for the most part.  Today, it's totally opposite.  As long as there are thousands of soldiers on screen, many people don't care too much about depth.

 

Wanting to have larger armies/battles is not indicative of wanting less depth. It's silly to have a group of 6 guys conquer a kingdom of thousands of citizens. It really is, yet that's what I accomplished in my game last night. I had my sov/spouse/2 adventurers/2 elementals and I defeated an entire kingdom using just that force. My cities, housing hundreds of people, were defended by 2-3 infantry tops.

Expanding the army size, and by extension the tactical battle maps to accomodate armies of 40 units or so instead of 10 will be able to maintain the value of a single unit while still providing an epic feel to the battles themselves. More and more the balance of this game needs to keep the unit sizes smaller, but the army sizes definitely have room to expand. Just think of the tactical options on a larger map with 40 squads or whatever on each side, you could have real army compositions, supported with a few dragons here and there.

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August 24, 2010 3:03:47 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Why on earth are you playing a fantasy TBS if you can't handle the idea of a single hero single-handedly taking on a bunch of lesser units? I would not have bought the game if it were billed as a normal TBS where rank-and-file soldiers are pretty much the only important aspect of combat.

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August 24, 2010 3:03:59 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting jscott991,

It really isn't anything like Civ or Gal Civ.  In Civ, your president/king/despot/emperor doesn't take to the field and kill a legion or army.  Individual spiders don't kill a pioneer capable of founding a city.

Elemental is supposed to be simulating the reunification of two vast continents and the fight between a number of great races, kingdoms, and empires.  Instead, it seems to be evoking just what the above poster mentions: the trials and tribulations of a group of DnD-style heroes, as they (ludicrously) conquer villages with hundreds of people in order to advance spell research (or whatever).

It just doesn't feel right at all.  They missed the boat on linking their story and inspirations with their actual presentation. But that's just my opinion. 

In Civilization 4 you're King didn't do anything, yes. I found it lacking in that aspect and have always thought they could add a little more to the game by adding in rulers. You could leave your sovereign at the capital if you wanted too.

Also, in civilization you had barbarians killing your pioneers or settlers... and they were MUCH harder to get in civ. Don't even get me started on the FFH2 mod... spiders... grrr. Believe me, they were there and they were a nusience.

I LOVE the D&D aspect of this game. Sure, it needs to be expanded upon a little and developed (check out the Traits and Abilities Mod) but the foundation is there. And later in the game you can start fielding some rather large armies. In my quick game I've got a city with 20-30 guys being slowly surrounded by the AI'S army... it's making me nervous but we are at peace, for the time. My adventurers couldn't do anything to their army (but could be good support) so they are off adventuring or making me money.

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August 24, 2010 3:05:55 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I kinda agree, but I think a quick fix would be to have your default troops train as a squad of 4 and then add higher amounts from there, rather than being stuck training 1 soldier at a time.

 

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August 24, 2010 3:11:20 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Well, I was wondering about when I'd be fighting a dragon with  dozen over dozen of soldiers. Really love that wallpaper. I guess that won't happen.

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August 24, 2010 3:12:00 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

If you want huge troop battles try Mount and Blade: Warband

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August 24, 2010 3:14:47 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting TheReaper43,
If you want huge troop battles try Mount and Blade: Warband

 

Which has nothing in common with a 4x strategy game.

 

It is fun though and you only get huge battles using a mod.

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August 24, 2010 3:15:25 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I like the depth we get with limited troops. Not to say i don't want to see a massive army...nonetheless most people can't handle all of the computations and graphics now. In the beta's performance was hell. Now it's abit better but nonetheless It was a design decision to both give depth and feel.

 

And You aren't an 'Epic Empire' with hundreds of years of growth and conquest...The fallen and the Humans are just afew survivors of a disaster of such power that it shattered the world 99% of the population being dead....the 'thousands' of people in your cities are refuge's and afew children brought together only for the hope of survival...The Sovereign is mostly just a normal person whom happens to have strong spiritual essence and is able to link to the power of the crystals *Shards* Each life is precious so why would one throw away thousands in war? it'll take centuries for humans to regain their population...to an even passable level for civilization as it takes over 5000 people just to have a stable genepool for 1-2 centuries Over 12000+ to rebuild civilization to its previous level without the fear of a single disease wiping everything out. Add this with limited food and resources to go around..Of course you don't have a massive army of soldiers.

 

Maybe once in the campaign when EVERY army joins together in pitched battle will you see a large army other then that Lore wise It Doesn't fit. You just need to use your head for a moment no offense intended and you'll see exactly what i mean.

 

You didn't understand the premise of the game when you bought it thinking it'd be like other fantasy games its not. Its a post apocolyptic end of life scenario style game. to put it into another games terms the population is as small as in Fallout. Where 50 people constitutes a settlement or a town at this point.

 

So effectively 8-12 armed men with good weapons can easily put down the 500 peasants...Why? because their refuges they've had a hard life their starving untill they get to the settlements their scared and their scarred by their life experiences growing up in such a place. Combined with the fact that Your a Sovereign a man of great and terrible power and no one else has magic.

 

So theres a reason for everything you just didn't look hard enough before judging this game I've been around since the early beta's Yes it could have had more but trust me its a great game nonetheless. And if you want more men and more of an 'epic' feel then wait for a mod or make one yourself that reduces unit costs and training and increases army limits or removes them entirely. Then mod in higher population cities. There you go you have your 'epic' feel and the true point of the story is lost. But thats fine it might be fun too i'm not saying i don't want cool mods just. Thats not the main game.

 

Hope i answered your questions countered your argument and hopefully resolved this issue. Have a nice day and sorry for my Grammar.

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August 24, 2010 3:20:41 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Yes the epic feel is lacking. I believe this is going to be fixed by modding because the game has the potential for it but I think the team is kinda committed to how the game works now.

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August 24, 2010 3:25:19 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Ehhmm i dont think you can translate EWOM's units to real men running around. Its an abstraction. Imagin 1 man represents maybe 1000 solders

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August 24, 2010 3:26:15 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting phazonfreak,



Quoting clockwerk,
reply 3
When there are less units, each unit becomes important.  This is why specialization and equipment are important for certain play-styles.  Elemental is like MoM and Civ in this regard.


Unfortunately that is not really the case in Elemental and one of the major problems imo. It worked perfectly in Master of Magic because every single unit, regular or summoned, had at least one special ability, most units had a couple of them, some even up to 10 and more. That really made every creature in the world unique and you had to acknowledge them in order to be successful. In addition, most of the units had certain resistances, immunities and susceptibilities, which determined what kind of magic and attacks were beneficial or not in a specific situation.

All of that is mostly lacking in Elemental and it is one of the main reasons why combat itself, units and the different magical schools cannot convey the feeling that it's either epic or special. Here the strengths and weaknesses of units are only distinguished by their attributes and items and not by their abilities, which offers less tactical variety. Having experienced Master of Magic it is rather disappointing to see that the majority of units don't even have one special ability.

What are you talking about? Nightmare riders, night elf priests, night elf warlocks. Even dwarves cowered before the ranged spells. Screw the other races.

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August 24, 2010 3:28:00 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Battles sound to me alot like the old Heroes Chronicles games. I have not played Elemental yet, but smaller unit size doesn't bother me...though yes the dragon screenshot is indeed misleading. But hey ya never know...smaller army size at launch isn't bad, easier to learn and manage. Maybe in some upcoming updates or a expansion the army sizes will become larger. A simple fix for now if it is intended is maybe have a group of 5 soldiers as an animation instead of a single unit. I have not followed this game closely enough, so not sure if 1 unit is meant to "really" be multiple soldiers.

 

Also if the above poster is correct and you can have up to 80 units that is pretty decent size army. Even alot of simple RTS only allow a max of 90 units.

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August 24, 2010 3:31:55 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Completely eliminate the single troops.  Start the training out in small groups (which currently has to be researched), and then scale the other groups appropriately.  Adjust vital statistics appropriately to keep things balanced.


This could also be done with wandering units.  Sovereigns and heroes would have a more epic feel to them if nearly all normal units had to band together to be of comparable strength.

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August 24, 2010 3:32:04 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting Sethfc,
I like the depth we get with limited troops. Not to say i don't want to see a massive army...nonetheless most people can't handle all of the computations and graphics now. In the beta's performance was hell. Now it's abit better but nonetheless It was a design decision to both give depth and feel.

 

And You aren't an 'Epic Empire' with hundreds of years of growth and conquest...The fallen and the Humans are just afew survivors of a disaster of such power that it shattered the world 99% of the population being dead....the 'thousands' of people in your cities are refuge's and afew children brought together only for the hope of survival...The Sovereign is mostly just a normal person whom happens to have strong spiritual essence and is able to link to the power of the crystals *Shards* Each life is precious so why would one throw away thousands in war? it'll take centuries for humans to regain their population...to an even passable level for civilization as it takes over 5000 people just to have a stable genepool for 1-2 centuries Over 12000+ to rebuild civilization to its previous level without the fear of a single disease wiping everything out. Add this with limited food and resources to go around..Of course you don't have a massive army of soldiers.

 

Maybe once in the campaign when EVERY army joins together in pitched battle will you see a large army other then that Lore wise It Doesn't fit. You just need to use your head for a moment no offense intended and you'll see exactly what i mean.

 

You didn't understand the premise of the game when you bought it thinking it'd be like other fantasy games its not. Its a post apocolyptic end of life scenario style game. to put it into another games terms the population is as small as in Fallout. Where 50 people constitutes a settlement or a town at this point.

 

So effectively 8-12 armed men with good weapons can easily put down the 500 peasants...Why? because their refuges they've had a hard life their starving untill they get to the settlements their scared and their scarred by their life experiences growing up in such a place. Combined with the fact that Your a Sovereign a man of great and terrible power and no one else has magic.

 

So theres a reason for everything you just didn't look hard enough before judging this game I've been around since the early beta's Yes it could have had more but trust me its a great game nonetheless. And if you want more men and more of an 'epic' feel then wait for a mod or make one yourself that reduces unit costs and training and increases army limits or removes them entirely. Then mod in higher population cities. There you go you have your 'epic' feel and the true point of the story is lost. But thats fine it might be fun too i'm not saying i don't want cool mods just. Thats not the main game.

 

Hope i answered your questions countered your argument and hopefully resolved this issue. Have a nice day and sorry for my Grammar.

I'm not arguing for armies of thousands, although that was a stated intention of frogboy in his initial discussions about elemental. The reason those numbers were removed (yes they were there) is because they found it too difficult to balance a game where the unit sizes ranged from 1 to 1,000 or more.

Cities max out at 1,000 people, in a harsh wasteland world filled with dangerous creatures, is it so ridiculous that an empire with 6 or 7 cities of 1,000 citizens field an army of greater than 200 for both defense and offense? That is less than 3% of the population devoted to protection in a world where demons and monsters roam about and your neighbors are ready to cut you down for the resources you control. Resources are scarce and thus these nations are fighting over what little remains in the world, if anything this would create groups with larger standing armies, in fact people coming to your nation are refugees of a harsh world, many of them are going to be capable of fighting and survival otherwise they wouldn't have made it to your city in the first place.

Even my suggestion of army caps of 40 units (40 x 20 tops) caps out at an army of 800. At the height of your empire it's not unreasonable to field something like that, especially if your nation is getting into the 10,000 - 15,000 range of population. This is a world you're filling up with the power of magic again, through your children and those you grant your essence to. They can create food, generate materials, research, all kinds of things via their enchantments. Heal injuries, cure diseases. This isn't ancient Rome either and many of the obstacles you speak of are easily countered with magic anyhow. There's no reason to be against raising the army size cap to make for more interesting conquests and battles. I don't want armies of 100,000 troops, but 1,000 isn't all that unreasonable.

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August 24, 2010 3:33:23 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

To Seth:

You didn't resolve anything.  The game was not marketed in the manner you suggest.

But this is all my opinion.  I know this concern was slinking around the net on other boards, where people were quite critical of the lack of a "grand" feel to this supposedly grand strategy game.  I agreed with them, but felt a little silly keeping my criticism there.

It's silly to see people walking around styling themselves Emperor This and King That when they rule an outpost with a couple dozen people and have 1-2 soldiers under their command.  I don't think this was ever the intention of the original design.  I think technical concerns and tactical battles combined to slice a huge part of the appeal right out of the game.  Suddenly MoM/Fantasy Civ became "DnD Party manager with villages."

In my opinion, this game suffers because of it.  My epic, immortal sovereign walking around the map conquering my enemies with a couple of guys with sticks just doesn't feel like a "grand strategy game."

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