Ggrrr them Pirates be Pirating...already?

Less than a day after release? Really?

By on August 23, 2010 6:22:07 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

RavenX

Join Date 10/2008
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Well, someone leaked Elemental. How messed up is that? Less than a day after "Early" Release.

[image removed]

Tell me you guys slipped in some kind of tag or hidden number somewhere so you can track who leaked it. It being pirated so FAST leads me to think the leak HAD to come from someone who is or was in the Beta. Only the Beta testers and earliest of pre-orders got access to the game last night, plus that one dude who made the YouTube video of getting it early. Hopefully you guys can find who did this and lay the smack down on them. As a beta tester and pre-orderer myself for over a Year, I feel that in a way Elemental is "My Baby" as well. I know a lot of the concepts we came up with here on the forums are in game and that really makes me feel responsible for part of the creative process. Maybe now some people will understand how a Dev feels seeing their work taken and passed around. This really chaps my ass...

Edit to Devs: Hmm, sorry for the image. I cropped it out really close so people wouldn't be able to tell what site it was on. Guessing it was still a little too "informative" though, my bad, I probably should have taken the group names out now that I think about it.

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August 24, 2010 9:59:22 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

So is this thread about piracy, tacos, or imperialist privilege? I really can't tell anymore.

Mmmm...tacos...

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August 24, 2010 10:01:34 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

They have tried to do that with the console industry, a hardware method of DRM. You can see how well it works when you can go out and buy an Xbox with an upgraded HDD and a ton of games and a mod-chip at the flea market. They're getting the PS3 to run pirated stuff according to reports I've read. Where there's a will there's a way, and unfortunately a lot of people have the will to play software they haven't purchased.

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August 24, 2010 10:07:23 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Clawdius_Talonious,
They have tried to do that with the console industry, a hardware method of DRM. You can see how well it works when you can go out and buy an Xbox with an upgraded HDD and a ton of games and a mod-chip at the flea market. They're getting the PS3 to run pirated stuff according to reports I've read. Where there's a will there's a way, and unfortunately a lot of people have the will to play software they haven't purchased.

The PS3 was only cracked recently, and they still haven't got games running on it easily.

I think that's a rather successful story to be honest...how many years did it take?

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August 24, 2010 10:11:09 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

The patch was pirated too.

 

I guess even the updates aren't the supposed "DRM"...

 

Meanwhile, I have no info about my limited edition pre-order. Is it being processed? Already dispached? Track order number? There's absolutely no feedback. Neither in my impulse account or by email...

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August 24, 2010 10:35:06 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Renevent,

Quoting Clawdius_Talonious, reply 102They have tried to do that with the console industry, a hardware method of DRM. You can see how well it works when you can go out and buy an Xbox with an upgraded HDD and a ton of games and a mod-chip at the flea market. They're getting the PS3 to run pirated stuff according to reports I've read. Where there's a will there's a way, and unfortunately a lot of people have the will to play software they haven't purchased.

The PS3 was only cracked recently, and they still haven't got games running on it easily.

I think that's a rather successful story to be honest...how many years did it take?
I didn't say it wasn't effective, it's clearly effective. The fact is that, despite people who want the entire industry to migrate to consoles, there are always going to be PC gamers. The PC gaming market moves units in the tens of millions, consoles with an installed base of 3 million can hardly move 12 million units. And with consoles, the ultimate in hardware DRM technology, the publishers are still red in the face and complaining about projected losses. Because people buy used games. Ask Cory Ledesma, that's "cheating". And you'd better believe THQ is serious about punishing these cheaters by penalizing them in their ability to play the software they've legally purchased online. 

 

And unfortunately with people like that in the industry, saying idiotic things, pirates don't just have their cake and eat it too. They feel morally superior while doing so because of the things on the other side of the isle. 

 

My point wasn't simply that pirates will eventually crack anything for the same reason people climb mountains, it was more that there's already an entire industry built around finding the pinnacle of hardware DRM. How much time and money has been spent on DRM, if you could find me these figures I could probably find that the amount spent on DRM well exceeds the potential sales increases it may have offered. I can absolutely find examples of games that did poorly because of the DRM or anti-piracy techniques they implemented. How much better off would some games be if the publishers had dumped that money into the games themselves instead of DRM? How many QA workers could the cost of licensing DRM software hire? We'll never have the chance to find out, because we don't live in that world.

 

Of course, there are some who've seen the light and instead of trying to take vengeance on their customer base because of the perceived potential for wrongdoing amongst a subset that is largely comprised of young people who don't have any money, realize that they would really only be hurting customers, as they're the only ones honest enough to run unadulterated code. Thankfully Stardock is one such company, offering me rewards for being a good customer, and not punishing me for something someone else did.

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August 24, 2010 11:37:22 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Kyorisu,
An utter shame this argument doesn't work. You cannot make a DRM system that will stop piracy without wasting tonnes of cash and royally pissing off all your users. You'd do more damage to yourself than you'd get in return by any magical pirates that decide to buy the game that requires an always on man servant watching you insert the disc into the drive.

You completely misunderstood my point.  I'm simply countering the notion that piracy has a net positive influence.  I think, if anything, that it's a break-even at best.

Quoting Kyorisu,
You can't prove anything.

Neither can you, so how about we just have a nice discussion and respect all viewpoints.  

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August 24, 2010 11:38:08 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Renevent,
By the way, same Mtn_Man from the Hellgate forums?

Yes.

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August 24, 2010 11:41:49 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting db0,
Aren't you people tired of whining about something you can't change?

Who's whining?  I'm just having a conversation. You doth protest too much, methinks.

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August 24, 2010 11:51:34 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting AngeloBraz,
The patch was pirated too.

 

I guess even the updates aren't the supposed "DRM"...

 

Meanwhile, I have no info about my limited edition pre-order. Is it being processed? Already dispached? Track order number? There's absolutely no feedback. Neither in my impulse account or by email...

Man....

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August 24, 2010 12:00:10 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

LOL, for the next game... intentionally make all the characters walk around saying "Arrrrrrhhhh!" and talking like pirates, and doing stupid things.... and then remove it with the 0 day patch.

Also, education works best for anti-piracy... however the media industry goes around it completely wrong. They compare it to stealing real physical things. What they should be doing is showing how it affects the typical workers behind the scenes. The corporations and the superstars will always take their cut, and what is left is what is divided among the faceless workers making everything happen. Hurt those people, and you get crappier products and make your potential neighbors less well off. That is a bastardly thing to do, and you wouldn't want it to happen to you.

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August 24, 2010 12:54:58 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

One thing is. In the Decent pirating communities *I know thats hard to imagine* where the professional crackers are. Indie games or Small companies like Stardock don't get pirated. and when they do they often stress to buy it if you like it.

 

Infact I've seen pirating work in Stardocks favor from 1-2 of my friends they pirated sins of a solar empire and ended up buying it. as well as a copy of galciv 2. I pirated Red faction Guerrilla and company of heroes. Its how i decided i liked the games before buying the THQ Pack on Impulse. I have similar stories for several games.

 

I Love Stardock and do not wish to rip themoff and actually think that their a great company i've bought alot of their games but i do not hate pirates. And besides Pirates will likely Buy Elemental if they truly like it. and if not then they never would have anyways No sales are really going to be lost this way and they'll download this stuff on their own servers. If they want to wait for updates and to deal with having no tech support and the knowledge in their heart that they didn't support the game+ No multiplayer..Then so be it let them enjoy their limited content.

 

 

I garentee you at least 40% of them will become or already are paying customers.

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August 24, 2010 1:14:52 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I'd love to have pirates (and sea monsters) in the game. Perhaps in the next expansion......

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August 24, 2010 2:21:08 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting db0,

On the question: Pirates don't do harm. By a large extent, they wouldn't have bought anyway and also spread awareness about the game via word of mouth. Many of these who like the game will turn into paying customers for the easy of use that having the game patched via impulse provides.

In other words, pirates are doing the propaganda campaign. That is true to some extent. In my opinion, demos would reduce the "need" for pirate games. Demos are easier to get, they have no virus, and allow you to decide if you want to pay for the game or not.

But if a game has no demo, and you don't know or don't trust the company, would you pay for it? I preordered Elemental because I love GalCiv2. But if GalCiv2 was not that good or I didn't know Elemental, then a demo would be in need.

Another point in favour of legal games (only online bought ones) is that you don't need to care about the installation disk. My computer crashed, but I could reinstall GalCiv2 without any problem because I own it in Impulse. That day I got more convinced to pay for games.

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August 24, 2010 2:48:40 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Baleurion,

Case closed, its just a huge fear-factor scam.

Sad but true.

Fear to push their own agendas and profit streams. I guess that's the latest prong of capitalism these days.

 

 

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August 24, 2010 2:50:52 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting OliverFA,

But if a game has no demo, and you don't know or don't trust the company, would you pay for it?

 

I did. I never played any other Stardock game in my life.

So Elemental is the first ever Stardock-made game I've ever played - and I preordered after just reading about what it's goals are and the fact it's a freaking turn-based game. Haven't played one of those since AoW...

 

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August 24, 2010 2:55:29 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Nesrie,
Ignore the pirates. Most games out there have a 90% something pirate rate. So what. The good games still get paid for, and the really good ones still get a lot of money. MW2 had a lot of piracy but it still raked in a lot too.

Quoting AlixeniusTheGreat,
Personally, though, so-called "issues" with DRM, such as having to connect to the internet, which seems to be a huge gripe among players, really isn't all that bad. I'm constantly hooked up to the internet, so I don't really care whether it needs to authenticate ever 10 minutes or so. 90% of the population should have no problem with it, but I suppose everyone has a bone to pick.

I really wish people would cite their sources.  A lot of the statistics I've seen here just seem simply wrong to me.  I mean this 90% of the population should have no problem connecting every 10 minutes to authenticate is just wrong.  At least provide some kind of proof.  A simple google search yielded a 22% rate in the US for broadband.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of_broadband_Internet_users

Just saying try to provide some actual evidence for claims.  It makes your argument more than just an opinion.

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August 24, 2010 3:23:46 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

That's based on subscribers, not households.  Each subscriber serves more than one person (in most cases) ie a household.  That wiki article stinks because the h.p. (house hold penetration) is blank for most of them...which doesn't make sense.

Anyways, last time I went online and researched it something like 70% (or more) of households have broadband in just about every 1st world country out there.

And obviously I don't have 'data' for this...but I would imagine the % of people with computers/gamers in the house is much higher than the flat percentage based on # of households/population.  These statistics include old people and people totally uninterested with technology.

If I were to guess, I would say at least 90% of homes with PC gamers in them have broadband access.  Of course this is just a guess lol.

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August 24, 2010 3:38:53 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting goldknight,



Quoting Nesrie,
reply 28
Ignore the pirates. Most games out there have a 90% something pirate rate. So what. The good games still get paid for, and the really good ones still get a lot of money. MW2 had a lot of piracy but it still raked in a lot too.





Quoting AlixeniusTheGreat,
reply 27
Personally, though, so-called "issues" with DRM, such as having to connect to the internet, which seems to be a huge gripe among players, really isn't all that bad. I'm constantly hooked up to the internet, so I don't really care whether it needs to authenticate ever 10 minutes or so. 90% of the population should have no problem with it, but I suppose everyone has a bone to pick.


I really wish people would cite their sources.  A lot of the statistics I've seen here just seem simply wrong to me.  I mean this 90% of the population should have no problem connecting every 10 minutes to authenticate is just wrong.  At least provide some kind of proof.  A simple google search yielded a 22% rate in the US for broadband.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of_broadband_Internet_users

Just saying try to provide some actual evidence for claims.  It makes your argument more than just an opinion.

 

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/pirated-modern-warfare-bittorrent-download,9325.html

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/29768/Machinarium_Dev_Saw_Up_To_95_Piracy_Rate.php

http://www.geek.com/articles/games/90-of-us-ds-owners-playing-pirated-games-2008021/

http://www.ripten.com/2010/08/09/starcraft-2-the-most-pirated-game-of-2010-so-far-sam-n/

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=17350

http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/55906

 

Is a half dozen articles okay or do you want hundreds?

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August 24, 2010 3:54:30 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Nesrie,

Is a half dozen articles okay or do you want hundreds?

I clicked randomly on the geek.com article and it seemed to be a guy being very skeptical of the ELSPA's 90% DS claim, but that's beside the point.  You actually got some evidence and that is what is generally lacking from forum debates.

Keep it up guys!  This has been a very interesting read on an otherwise slow day at work.

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August 24, 2010 3:57:36 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Tormy-,



Quoting AngeloBraz,
reply 104


The patch was pirated too.

 

I guess even the updates aren't the supposed "DRM"...

 

Meanwhile, I have no info about my limited edition pre-order. Is it being processed? Already dispached? Track order number? There's absolutely no feedback. Neither in my impulse account or by email...



Man....

Isn't that a f'kin kick in the pants...

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August 24, 2010 4:09:13 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Eh i've always been a big fan of full version demo's that last for a few hours then you have to buy them.

Games just cost way to much to buy them without knowing what they are.  S'why i'm such a console game hater heh. Least with PC most games have demos/betas you can play in to get an idea of the game before getting it.

I sympathize with some pirates though, the ones in countries that don't exactly have good currencies and are only able to get games online.

50-60$ USD is just to much in those situations.

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August 24, 2010 4:10:33 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting goldknight,



Quoting Nesrie,
reply 118

Is a half dozen articles okay or do you want hundreds?


I clicked randomly on the geek.com article and it seemed to be a guy being very skeptical of the ELSPA's 90% DS claim, but that's beside the point.  You actually got some evidence and that is what is generally lacking from forum debates.

Keep it up guys!  This has been a very interesting read on an otherwise slow day at work.

I can only use the numbers that are given, and I am skeptical too about how they get those numbersy. I certainly think some are exaggerated, but I am talking about the idea that most games that sell relatively well currently reference around a 90% piracy rate with or without DRM.  That doesn't change that fact that a well made game, and even some not so good games, can make millions by focusing on the people who actually pay for them instead of the pirates. I won't purchase certain publishers because of their DRM. That's a lost a sale. Some individual who pirates everything, including crap they don't have enough hours in their lifetime to play, is not a lost sale and they still got ahold of Ubisoft titles in the end (example).

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August 24, 2010 4:23:02 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Here's a completely different take on (new) DRM and piracy.

DRMs latest shenanigans is to prevent reselling by providing game content only available through online distribution.  If you bought a resold game then you lose out on the bonus content or buy it seperately.  Too many retailers like Gamestop and Ebay have munched into software developer profits.  Of course the resale business may never have taken off if it weren't for console systems.

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August 24, 2010 4:37:20 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting RogueCaptain,
Here's a completely different take on (new) DRM and piracy.

DRMs latest shenanigans is to prevent reselling by providing game content only available through online distribution.  If you bought a resold game then you lose out on the bonus content or buy it seperately.  Too many retailers like Gamestop and Ebay have munched into software developer profits.  Of course the resale business may never have taken off if it weren't for console systems.

Well then you have the Neverwinter Night problem showing up too... aka DLC taken down and away from paying customers.

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