UFOs: What do YOU Believe?

A Question that mankind has asked since the dawn of time.

By on August 5, 2010 11:59:42 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

RavenX

Join Date 10/2008
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UFO's and Aliens. Do they exist? Do you think there's even a chance that there is other intelligent life in our galaxy or universe or do you think we Humans are the only intelligent life in all of creation? These are questions that we as a species, man-kind, have asked since as far as our recorded history goes back. Even Ancient man, with no knowledge of modern science or modern understanding of what "Space" was, would look to the night sky at the twinkling stars and wonder...."Are we truly alone?".

Honestly, I've always thought aliens existed. Whether or not they've actually visited this planet at any point in it's history I don't know and I don't think anyone can truly say one way or the other and have definitive proof. Of course there is probably just as much "proof" that aliens don't exist as there is that they do, but, at least we are now discovering for a Fact that there is or was "some form" of life in the universe outside of the planet Earth. We know from microscopic fossils in martian rocks that at one point millions of years ago there was at the very least Single Celled life on Mars. We found this out back in the late 90's. Didn't hear about it? That's not surprising since I only found out about it because of a 10 second mention on ABC's "World News Tonight" back in 96-97. Today how-ever you can research this for your-self as many papers and articles have been published on the subject. A quick Google Search will lead you to many results such as these:

Meteorite Yields Evidence of Primitive Life on Early Mars Source: www.solarviews.com Article from 1997

Fossil Life in Martian Rock Found in Antarctica ? Source:  http://spider.seds.org/spider/Mars/Marsrock/marsrocks.html Article from 1996

Proof of Life in Three Martian Rocks May Come This Year Source: www.popsci.com Article from 2010

This is enough in my eyes to call it "Definitive Proof", they're just waiting on the specific results so they can say it's a fact without a shadow of a doubt, and I respect them for waiting and taking it slow and doing the science the right way. A claim such as this can't be rushed no matter how apparent the results of any "proof" might be.

While I do believe in intelligent life outside of this planet, I'm still a skeptic. I mostly believe in what I can see with my own eyes. What I can feel with my own two hands. I think it's important for anyone doing any Serious research into the matter to be a skeptic and to try to dis-prove or debunk as many fakes as possible. With our advances in computers and video editing and special effects it's easier than ever for the nut-jobs and conspiracy wackos out there to make convincing "proof" on their own and it's people like those that bring a bad ilk to any Serious research into the matter. Sadly there are a lot of fakers and crazy people out there working in both directions of the debate. There are people who make fake videos of UFO's and try to pass them off as real and there are various groups and religious zealots who try to prove that Everything is fake and say that None Of It is real and anyone who believes there is intelligent non-human life in the universe is a moron or a liar.

Worse yet there are many people out there who are terrified of the idea that aliens may exist. Some people are so closed minded that no matter what scientific advances we may make or what we may learn about the universe and life its-self, they will Never believe that alien life exists even if aliens were to land on the White-House lawn and announce to the world that they are real and that they are here. Even if that did happen (which of course it hasn't) there would be a certain percentage of the world's population that would say it was faked, even if the proof was pointing a particle cannon at their head.

I'm about to tell a story I've never told publicly before. I've never told it honestly because I'm a little afraid of what it may make people think in regards to my sanity. If you choose to believe it, that's great. If you choose not to believe it, that's great too. One thing I do know for sure, I know what I saw...

Note: Before I get into the story, keep in mind that I was a kid. I was 13 or 14 years old. I had never done any drugs, didn't smoke cigs, didn't drink, and I wasn't a wild kid with a crazy imagination. I never had an "imaginary friend" at any point and even when I did grow up and start "partying" I've never had a hallucination nor have I ever saw something that I wasn't completely sure was right in front of me (magic tricks aside).

It was the summer of the year that my family moved from Deland in Volusia County out to Lake Mack in Lake County, Florida. I had to go to summer school that year to make up a failing English grade in 7th grade English (long story but basically I got screwed out of the grade I should have received). Because there weren't that many kids in my area going to summer school that year all of us in the neighborhood had to meet down at the corner store which was the only bus-stop for summer school that year. School started at 7 A.M. and was all the way in Leesburg (almost an hour from my house). We kids had to be at the bus-stop at 5:30 A.M. because it was a very long ride all the way to Leesburg from where we were in Lake Mack and there were other students to stop and pick up along the way. I was walking to the bus-stop down a long winding road. It was a normal paved road and there were houses and trailers all over the place. Even though the road was deserted because it was so early in the morning it was still a populated and crowded neighborhood. As I was rounding the bends I noticed all the tall pine trees were swaying back and forth pretty hard like there was about to be a storm, but oddly enough I couldn't feel any wind. I'm not going to say there wasn't any wind, there very well could have been and the currents were too high off the ground for me to feel the wind, but, I didn't actually feel any wind.

I was looking up at the tops of the pine trees when a very Large Triangle came out over the trees. At first I thought it was a helicopter and maybe I was seeing the lights on the ends of the rotors but then two things hit me. First, I couldn't hear Any noise. None what-so-ever. Second, if the lights I saw were on the ends of the rotors they would have been spinning very fast and not been stationary. They were also way too far apart to be rotor blades. The object was at least 3 times as high up as the trees, maybe 4 times as high, and it...was....Massive. I'm talking like the size of a Boeing 747, Massive. I quickly realized there was no way in hell that it was a helicopter. There were no flashing lights on it. They were on steadily. There were four lights in total. One larger light in the center and three more slightly smaller lights, one at each tip of the Triangle. I had seen plenty of helicopters up close, even military ones as I've lived close to Deland Airport for most of my time in Deland and seen plenty of air shows and air planes and helicopters first hand. I've seen both the Apache and the smaller Cobra Attack Chopper that it shares it's design with. It's also of note that out in Lake Mack in Lake County we were technically on the out-skirts of the Ocala National Forrest. The army had a bombing range on the far edge of the forrest and at least 3 or 4 times a year you could hear the bombs being dropped and all you had to do was go outside when the planes or helicopters were flying over-head to see what vehicles were doing the bombing. Lake Mack was right underneath their flight path for a long time even though the bombing range its-self was a good 60 or 70 miles away.

Anyway, when I realized just what it was I was looking at....well, I'm not ashamed to admit I got scared and started running for the bus-stop. I didn't look back and I didn't slow down. When I finally got to the point where I could see the store and see the other kids through the darkness standing under the street light at the store I stopped running. I didn't want the other kids thinking I was too scared to walk to the bus-stop in the dark, which I wasn't. I've never been afraid of the dark, not even as a small child. At that point when I stopped running I took the time to look behind me. Not surprisingly I didn't see anything. Nothing. No ship, no Triangle, no wind, and the trees were as still as could be since there was no wind.

I'm not gonna say I know for sure that it was aliens. I don't and to surmise that with no further evidence would be kinda stupid in my eyes. What I do know is that I have no idea what it was and it WASN'T a conventional aircraft. I honestly don't know what It was, but I do know I have Never seen Anything like It nor have I since. That one experience has led me to believe in intelligent life outside of this planet. I can't say it Was aliens. I can say I Think it was, because I have no other explanation for it.

So.....what do YOU believe? Do YOU think we're alone in the universe? Or do YOU think there is far more out there then we could ever dream is possible?

 

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August 13, 2010 2:36:28 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

..yet another interesting article! ->

The chances of discovering intelligent life in our galaxy is incredibly low

http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/media/3412/the-chances-discovering-intelligent-life-our-galaxy-incredibly-low

FANCY a close encounter of the third kind - finding other life in our galaxy? Don't hold your breath.

WHAT'S the chance of finding intelligent life in our galaxy, the Milky Way? Pretty slim, according to Wilson da Silva, editor of COSMOS magazine.

He has updated the famous Drake Equation, used in the search for extra-terrestrial intelligence (SETI), to reveal aliens are even harder to find than we thought just 50 years ago.

That was when the search began in earnest, led by radio astronomer Dr Frank Drake.

He hoped to find ET by scanning the sky for radio signals. The mission continues to this day, as Dr Drake is now chairman of the SETI Institute, but the silence is deafening.

Writing in the latest issue of COSMOS, Dr Drake says the silence is not eerie, it's predictable.

"If you take the most plausible guess for the number of detectable civilisations in our galaxy, the answer you get is about 10,000. That's a big number," he says. "And it requires civilisations to stay detectable for 10,000 years or so.

"Nevertheless, that means in our galaxy, with its 100 billion or so stars, only 1 in 10 million stars will have a detectable civilisation.

"Which suggests SETI will not succeed until we have searched some 10 million stars. And, of course, we don't know what frequency to search at!"

Our planet has been buzzing with radio waves for decades, but we're about to go quiet with the switch to digital television. Military radar has toned down the volume and mobile phones require less power to achieve the same result.

"Very soon, the Earth will become undetectable," Dr Drake writes. "If we are typical of what a civilisation goes through, it means the search will be much more difficult than we ever imagined."

With changing technology, he says, optical signals may be a better bet. But then who's to say these aliens are following our path of technological development. They may be doing something far more sophisticated. They may even be masking their signals to avoid being detected.

At the moment, Mr da Silva says, we're only likely to trip over those civilisations that have set up a beacon to highlight their existence.

"Only a very powerful beacon - intended to be found by new civilisations - could be detected by us," he says. "But just sending such a signal would be extremely difficult, and expensive. And why would you do it?"

To celebrate the SETI anniversary, Mr da Silva plugged the latest science into the Drake Equation. Dr Drake listed all the questions science would need to answer in order to predict the number of detectable civilisations in the galaxy, then realised answers to all of the questions could be multiplied to find the ultimate answer to the ultimate question.

Dr Drake agrees the equation still works.

"The only thing that's changed is the numbers we put into it," he says. "When I first invented the equation we had to guess some of the factors. A lot of those have now been established through observation."

But the answer Mr da Silva has come up with is a much smaller number than Dr Drake found 50 years ago - a low 0.00127.

What does it mean?

"It means that during any 100,000 period in our galaxy's history, around 127 detectable civilisations will crop up," Mr da Silva says.

"It may not sound too bad but it actually makes the odds of us tracking and finding one of them really, really hard, especially within a few hundred years of looking. The chances are actually minimal at best."

He says working through the calculation is a good exercise for students, who learn a lot about science along the way.

South Australian science teachers puzzled over the problem at their annual conference yesterday.

SA Science Teachers Association president Bronwyn Mart says the conference brings together teachers, laboratory officers, tertiary students and educators all striving to improve their ability to infect students with a love of science.

Mr da Silva gave the keynote presentation and the program features a swag of scientists, including climate change Professor Barry Brook from the University of Adelaide, and the director of the Flinders Artificial Intelligence and Language Technology Laboratories, Professor David Powers.

Today's children will decide the fate of our civilisation and Mr da Silva hopes the light of humanity will continue to burn brightly.

"If we are alone in the cosmos, then we have an obligation to ensure that our spark of intelligence is not lost, that we protect life on our planet," he says.

"I would argue we also have an obligation to ensure the survival of humanity by expanding beyond the planet. You can be sure that one day a massive calamity will befall our world - asteroid, comet impact, solar burst, nuclear war - and we could disappear or our civilisation could fall."

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August 13, 2010 5:06:10 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

1. Humans might occasionally enjoy killing, true. But we can do that. Animals are either dead or not dead, and any waste of energy can prove fatal. I am an optimist and always will be try to be, and I find no sensible argument to start a war. War wouldn't give anyone resources, it would only waste them, and in every government someone has to have realized that.

 

2. I don't think mankind will drain so many resources the earth can't sustain life

Did anyone read the line at all? Oil will run out, it is a matter of time. Our society is starting a downhill slide, and it is just a matter of time till we hit bottom. Yet it won't end the world, it won't wipe out our species, it won't irrepairably devastate the planet. If you look at the words in the sentence you might not go and say I'm for limited fuels.

 

3. We are overpopulating now because we can, but when we cant't... I wouldn't want to be the ones at the edges. I try to avoid every illusion, and the world isn't for fun and roses. People will die. We can't live how we live now, and the most changes are needed in the NIC and third world countries. And that is where the least change occurs. *

 

4. As I said, we can't predict the future, yet between declining resources and the sheer amount of energy we would need now. It is impossible to get a ship out of the solar system. Only by discovering a new and sci-fi way of travel (there are many theories out there, some viable, some not viable) can we ever leave our solar system.

 

3 - The human species is already triple it's population threshold. (we should be extinct)

There is no should in nature. Only the facts and the lies. Since we aren't extinct we shouldn't be extinct. Not in our environment (which encompasses timeframes) at any rate. And what do you mean by population threshold? The amount of people who can continually live on the planet without risking to drain any resources. If so, who came up with the number and what lifestyle do these people have?

* EDIT: I should specify: change for a sustaniable environment.

 

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August 14, 2010 9:11:43 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting GoaGalneGbilski,
1. Humans might occasionally enjoy killing, true. But we can do that. Animals are either dead or not dead, and any waste of energy can prove fatal. I am an optimist and always will be try to be, and I find no sensible argument to start a war. War wouldn't give anyone resources, it would only waste them, and in every government someone has to have realized that.

There is one resource that is gained through war and not used up. Land. Which is what people will need (like all those billions of Chinese). The resources that land has might be used up, but by killing off the native population of the land they invade they make room for their people to move in. When you have too many people in your country and need room to expand land its-self is the most valuable resource.

2. I don't think mankind will drain so many resources the earth can't sustain life

Did anyone read the line at all? Oil will run out, it is a matter of time. Our society is starting a downhill slide, and it is just a matter of time till we hit bottom. Yet it won't end the world, it won't wipe out our species, it won't irrepairably devastate the planet. If you look at the words in the sentence you might not go and say I'm for limited fuels.

Ok, we might have jumped the gun a bit there and misunderstood your meaning with that sentence.

3. We are overpopulating now because we can, but when we cant't... I wouldn't want to be the ones at the edges. I try to avoid every illusion, and the world isn't for fun and roses. People will die. We can't live how we live now, and the most changes are needed in the NIC and third world countries. And that is where the least change occurs. *

Can't argue with that. Dead on there.

4. As I said, we can't predict the future, yet between declining resources and the sheer amount of energy we would need now. It is impossible to get a ship out of the solar system. Only by discovering a new and sci-fi way of travel (there are many theories out there, some viable, some not viable) can we ever leave our solar system.

Gotta agree with that one too.

 

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August 14, 2010 11:57:09 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

There is no should in nature. Only the facts and the lies. Since we aren't extinct we shouldn't be extinct. Not in our environment (which encompasses timeframes) at any rate. And what do you mean by population threshold? The amount of people who can continually live on the planet without risking to drain any resources. If so, who came up with the number and what lifestyle do these people have?

That's according to a standard ecological model. Lets say for instance that another species instead of humans had our same population, niche, ect. That species, acting independently, would drain the resources it needs to sustain. As resources become less available, more members of the population act selfishly and compete with members of its own species in order to survive. At this (tipping) point, the death rate begins to exceed the birth rate, and this propels the species to extinction. This concept is called the tragedy of the commons. It's proven in nature, and it's happened millions of times in the history of our planet. Our school is one of the only ones which offers a course specifically on extinction - and I took it last year.

Carl Sagan has a good way of explaining things: (1998)

"Exponentials are also the central idea behind the world population crisis. For most of the time humans have been on Earth the population was stable, with births and deaths almost perfectly in balance. This is called a "steady state". After the invention of agriculture ... the human population of this planet began increasing, entering an exponential phase which is very far from a steady state. Right now the doubling time of the world' population is about 40 years. Every forty years there will be twice as many of us. As the English clergyman Thomas Malthus pointed out in 1798, a population increasing exponentially - Malthus described it as a geometrical progression - will outstrip any conceivable increase in food supply. No Green Revolution, no hydroponics, no making the deserts bloom can beat an exponential population growth."

-adding to that......not only has the population been growing exponentially, but the rate of growth has also been growing.

I say humans should be extinct, because according to population biology, we should be. The problem is, we are an exception when it comes to many biological concepts, thus making life on Earth unbalanced. We aren't greatly affected by natural selection, we take resources from other species causing them to become endangered, we have no significant predators, and the fitness of our species can't be determined. The human species has become so good at surviving that its endangered itself. Unfortunately, we refuse to accept this reality and so we don't change anything. Humans are single-handedly accelerating biome change and species fragmentation/extinction. Every time a biome change has happened in the history of Earth, there has been a mass extinction.

If humans were extinct, the world would be in perfect equilibrium. We really need to either control our population size, or leave this planet - this is the largest problem in the scientific community.

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August 14, 2010 2:01:39 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting G3mpi3,
If humans were extinct, the world would be in perfect equilibrium. We really need to either control our population size, or leave this planet - this is the largest problem in the scientific community.

 

What does that mean?  Perfect equilibrium?

 

As though the earth is ever in a state of 'perfect equilibrium'.  That sounds too much like some gaian rambling about mother earth being a sentient organism and us a parasite on her.

 

Look you can think that if you want, but the end of that reasoning is that you should kill yourself, besides there's no observable data to base the claim off of.  Sure humans are the best species on this planet that we know of at changing the environment to suit themselves, or do damage to the environment with 'thoughtless' (in the context of the planet) actions.

 

Population size will be controlled, to an extent it is already, however, you may not care for the control.  But humans being nothing more than another species on another planet, have nothing particularly special (read divine...) going for them that should make anyone think they are more or less relevant than anything else.  Either we as a species will decide that some restraint is necessary, or we won't.  Either we will continue to develop technologies to make our lives better, or we won't.  Should or shouldn't is a personal opinion (though I am on the should side), what matters ultimately is simply what happens.

 

For all we know in the next decade a gigantic asteroid will smack the planet making all of this worry about what humans are up to utterly meaningless.  Indeed it is a certainty that at some point a huge asteroid will smack the planet anyway.

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August 14, 2010 3:56:30 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

 Aliens-they're not just for breakfast anymore.

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August 14, 2010 5:42:52 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting shadowtongue,

As though the earth is ever in a state of 'perfect equilibrium'.  That sounds too much like some gaian rambling about mother earth being a sentient organism and us a parasite on her.

Well, I'm not a psycho that thinks the Earth is a thinking thing, but, the Earth IS alive in a sense (no I don't mean that dirt has a pulse). All the various food chains and bi-oms on the planet form a vast web, a network. This network was more or less in a constant state of "Balance" before we humans dominated our environment. When it comes to us being a parasite, we are. We move into a area, we build on it, we strip mine the resources from it, we clear cut the forests that make the very air we breath and in the process destroy the habitat of everything living there. Then (even if it's hundreds of years later) once the resources in that area are used up we move on and populate a new area and the process starts all over again. There's only one other life-form on the planet that does what we do by moving into a place, using it up, and moving to a new place. A virus or a parasite. They do that. They invade a cell, which is a living organism, they infect it and use it to create more viruses (which is how they reproduce) and then when the cell dies new viruses move on to other cells and do the same thing all over again. Cancer does that too.

If we really want to stay alive and not kill ourselves off by killing the planet we live on before we have the technology to get off it then we, as a species, need to realize that we can't have more people than we have the capacity to grow food to feed those people. We just keep breeding and breeding with no regard what-so-ever to whether or not we'll be able to feed our children. If you want to see an example of this just turn on cable TV at 3 or 4 AM and see one of those commercials where Sally Struthers is talking about poor "Shaquithwa" the starving African baby. Do you think that child's parents even considered "Hey, we can't grow enough food to feed ourselves. Maybe it would be a better idea if we Didn't have another kid?". NO!! No-one thinks like that. I know my wife and I do. The thing holding us back from having kids right now is we already know we don't have the income to feed a child or even give a kid a room to sleep in. We barely have the income to pay our rent and keep food on the table, much less add another mouth that needs to be fed and clothed and cared for. If we had a kid right now we'd have to pull out a dresser drawer and use it as a crib for the child to sleep in.

The messed up thing is there are Ton and Tons of illegal immigrants coming to the US simply because they know our government will foot the bill to feed their rug rats. I'm about to point out a very common example of this here in Florida. This is NOT a racist statement, I'm just pointing out the Facts. If it sounds bad it's not my fault. I'd blame the people who Do this, namely Mexicans. They flood into the US illegally then they have their kids here and by default those kids are now US citizens and can't be deported back to Mexico. Then they have the fuckin balls to not even teach their kids how to speak English so Florida is being forced more and more to teach Spanish. Did you know Florida legislature is actually trying to pass new guidelines so that Spanish, and NOT English, will be the Primary language that's taught in our schools....how fucked up is that? You know why that's fucked up? Here, I'll explain.

I'm not against immigrants coming to the US. We all immigrated here from some place or another unless we are Native Americans. My family came here from Italy prior to WW1 or just after WW1. When my great grandparents moved here you know what they did? They stopped speaking Italian and started speaking English!!! Gran has told me stories about when she was a little girl. She has 7 brothers and sisters. When they would speak Italian around the house Great Grandpa would smack them in the mouth and say "We're Americans now and now that we Are Americans we speak English.". You know what that is? RESPECT. You don't move to another country and expect the people of that country to conform to you and your language. If you move to another country you damn well better learn to speak the fucking language of that country or in my eyes you don't have any business moving there to live. I'm NOT saying people who move to other countries should Abandon their culture or heritage, of course they shouldn't, but they SHOULD learn how to communicate in the Native Language of the place they moved to, it's called Common Decency and it's the number one reason why people here don't like immigrants. These immigrants don't have Any Respect for the US. They come here simply so they can get a "Free Ride" and it's the American Tax Payers who are footing the bill for it. Every time I'm out in public and I come across someone speaking another language other than English I feel like walking up to them and saying "Hey, don't you have Any Respect for the country you live in? You know, the country that took you in and is now paying for you and your rug rats to eat!".

All you have to do here in Florida is go to any county office that gives health or financial aid and you'll see almost nothing but Latinos. There are a "few" caucasians seeking help, like me and my wife, but mostly it's filled with people who don't even know how to speak fucking English. If a person doesn't have the Common Decency to learn the spoken language of the country they now Live In then in my eyes they should be Deported right back to where-ever the f'k they came from. My family learned English when we came here. We didn't expect the entire population of PA (where we immigrated to) to learn to speak Italian. Do you know why so many immigrants have tons and tons of kids? Because they get Federal Aid, sometimes up to as much as $400 a month PER CHILD for every kid they have. For some reason I see a Lot of Mexicans down here that drive $50,000 trucks or cars but they don't have the money to feed and clothe their kids and they live in a tin shack that looks like it should be condemned. Some of them put off this attitude that they don't even look at their kids as people. Instead they see their kids as another Free $400 a month to make that expensive truck payment with. Meanwhile those same kids go to bed hungry because their parents didn't buy any food. Those same kids get sick and go to bed cold because they live in a tin shack with no insulation or air conditioning. What kind of sense does that make? WHY would someone drive a expensive car or truck but live in a little shit hole of a run down shack? That just sounds fucking retarded if you ask me. I don't know about you but I'd much rather have a Nice House and drive a Shitty Car than live in a Shitty House and drive a Nice car. It's not a matter of income it's a matter of doing the right thing with the money you Do Have. Some of these immigrants don't have the brains god gave a hamster.


Wow, I've totally derailed my own topic lol. To get back on topic, we really, Really need to get off this planet before we use it up and reach the point to where there are too many mouths to feed and not enough food being produced to feed them all which is already happening and has been happening since the 70's and 80's. Every time some third world country has a drought and people start dying from starvation the world takes pity on them and starts shipping them grain and clothing. Instead what the world SHOULD BE DOING is getting those people the hell Out Of The Area that Can't Produce Food!!! The problem is no-one wants those people to immigrate into Their Country. Why? Because they know that when those people immigrate into Their Country then the quality of life in that country will rocket downward because there already isn't land, resources, and money to feed the people that already live there. Logically the best thing to do for All Of Us would be to let Nature Take It's Course...and by that I mean letting the people living the desert to Starve and Die. Yes, that sounds incredibly harsh, but, THAT'S NATURE. Every time we ship food and supplies to an area that can't support human life all we do is encourage the population of that area to keep growing and make the problem worse because now there are more starving mouths to feed. Eventually the world won't be able to handle the population and if we don't get off this rock before that happens we're ALL doomed to extinction.

Hawkings is right in saying if we don't get off this rock we're all doomed. Either we'll pass the point of sustainability or eventually we'll get wiped out by an asteroid or comet impact or a few billion years from now our star (the sun) will die and we'll all be killed anyway. Our future as a species is out there somewhere in the vastness of space, not sitting down here being stuck on our little prison planet.

Quoting Wizard1956,
 Aliens-they're not just for breakfast anymore.

That's true. When they get here they'll eat us for breakfast, lunch, and dinner!!! LoL. The alien's motto for their restaurants says "People....it's what's for dinner!!!!".

 

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August 14, 2010 5:50:46 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

 

"People....it's what's for dinner!!!!".

"Humans...The other red meat."

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August 14, 2010 5:52:05 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Hawkings is right in saying if we don't get off this rock we're all doomed.

I agree! Everyone should leave...now! And I'll stay behind and turn out the lights! Hurry now! Everyone on the ship!

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August 14, 2010 7:46:39 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Hawkings is right in saying if we don't get off this rock we're all doomed

Not to worry, we'll be assimilated before then.

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August 14, 2010 8:43:13 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting Raven X,



Quoting Philly0381,
reply 1
just how intelligent will we be?  



LoL probably not very. Knowing us humans our first reaction will probably be "Holy sh!t it looks different than we do. Quick, Kill it!!!"...

Great reply btw.

RavenX, what you saw could have been an experimental aircraft.  Eglin maybe??  You are not the first person to report something like this.  There was a sighting some years ago in the midwest.  Many people saw a strange, silent aircraft right over the main street of the town.  No question about what they saw.  The military is not talking. 

I am pretty sure there is other intelligent life in the universe but what if they're the intelligent ones and we turn out to be the equivalent of cockroaches or rats?  Read too much Kafka I guess. 

I live not far from the Ocala forest down in Citrus County.  There are some strange doings there and some are military as you probably already know. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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August 14, 2010 10:31:17 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Raven-

 

I agree that the earth is 'alive' in the sense you describe, but I disagree that we are therefore a parasite on it.  Of course we have shown our ability to alter the environment negatively, but also positively.  The tipping point may come, and at that point we will face the choice of allowing ourselves to die off, or making the changes to prolong our 'lives'.  So far I see no reason to think that we will simply chose to kill ourselves, and if you follow technology advancements, and what drives them, then you might feel a tad better about what we can come up with to 'save' ourselves, or the planet, or both really.

 

Though really I strongly disagree that we are going to devour all the resources on the planet anyway, unless we do so to build some kind of biodome to evacuate the planet when the asteroid does arrive.  Mostly because we don't really use up anything.  Oh we consume it, and some products are 'destroyed', but most elements are simply used, not transformed, thus they still 'are', only the cost of reclaiming them is right now high.  Though I believe we will be able to solve that issue if we are truly pressed to do so, and indeed, for some elements we are showing improved ability to recycle/reclaim.

 

And if the asteroid does arrive, the energy and materials necessary to move us to other planets are so immense that in order to do so we would actually need to strip the earth in ways so far unconceivced.  Mass human migration to other systems would only occur if we had to abandon the earth, because there's no 'clean' way to do it.

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August 15, 2010 12:11:46 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

As though the earth is ever in a state of 'perfect equilibrium'. That sounds too much like some gaian rambling about mother earth being a sentient organism and us a parasite on her.



Look you can think that if you want, but the end of that reasoning is that you should kill yourself, besides there's no observable data to base the claim off of. Sure humans are the best species on this planet that we know of at changing the environment to suit themselves, or do damage to the environment with 'thoughtless' (in the context of the planet) actions.

No observable data? That's a joke, right? Look around you. Humans have had a huge negative impact on this planet and the life on it. There have been dozens of extinctions because of us, and there will be plenty more as our population size increases. There is a direct link between human population size and extinction frequency - that has been proven. There's tons of observable data, but obviously there are more people refusing to observe it, which actually helps my argument - most humans are irresponsible, selfish, and ignorant. Also, I'm not saying we should all kill ourselves, but the sooner we realize the damage we are doing the sooner we can take responsibility for it. I should have specified saying that I meant from an ecological standpoint, the life on this planet would be in equilibrium without humans around. (Natural selection, metapopulations, birth/death rates, population biology.......) We screw up every one of those models because of our complexity. I believe it is possible to educate ourselves about this concept to find a workable solution to the problem, but that's assuming people are willing to learn and change their normal lifestyles. You have the freedom to decide if you want to realize this truth, or go on living carelessly, depending on the scientific community to solve all of the problems you create.

Population size will be controlled, to an extent it is already, however, you may not care for the control. But humans being nothing more than another species on another planet, have nothing particularly special (read divine...) going for them that should make anyone think they are more or less relevant than anything else. Either we as a species will decide that some restraint is necessary, or we won't. Either we will continue to develop technologies to make our lives better, or we won't. Should or shouldn't is a personal opinion (though I am on the should side), what matters ultimately is simply what happens.

It is not controlled. It is quite the opposite - out of control. China and India's birth rates are ridiculously high, and increasing every year. If we don't decide some restraint is necessary, our future will not be bright. As I've mentioned several times before, humans are already overpopulated. We will be forced off of this planet soon, if we continue to be as ignorant as we currently are. We will continue to develop technologies to make ourselves better at surviving and living easier - but this will not likely help the problem previously mentioned.

-you say "what matters ultimately is simply what happens" - it is up to us to decide what will happen. With that kind of attitude, you make it seem like our future is predetermined. Well lets just say, if I was on fire, I would try to survive - not just say "oh well, it was going to happen either way." The way for our species to survive now is to realize that this overpopulation issue is dooming our existence.

For all we know in the next decade a gigantic asteroid will smack the planet making all of this worry about what humans are up to utterly meaningless. Indeed it is a certainty that at some point a huge asteroid will smack the planet anyway.

Actually, for all we know the next closest chance will be in the year 2029. We can see things like meteors coming. Yes, of course an asteroid will hit the Earth sometime, but we'll see it coming - unless the moon decides to break in half.

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August 15, 2010 7:19:44 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Unfortutunately, no matter how gloomy and lacking in hope the future looks, all we can do is the best we can.  For example, there is now a super bug that even last resort antibiotics can't kill.  I am just a little bit annoyed that the place where I live doesn't have recycling capabilities.  I see the Australian major political parties unwilling to do even a little bit to limit damaging climate deterioration (I don't believe that climate change is a good enough phrase, because climate "changes" all the time, with or without humans).  But we still have to live life the best we can.  But that definitely does not mean doing nothing.

"If the destination was the only thing important about our lives, every life story would be the same."  After all, we all end up dead, but does that stop us remembering good people? 

Best regards,
Steven.

Btw: I do not know if anyone has ever said that, that's just what I came up with.

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August 15, 2010 7:45:43 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Cameochi,




I live not far from the Ocala forest down in Citrus County.  There are some strange doings there and some are military as you probably already know. 

 

Ok....when Cameochi disappears from the forum, we will know what happened.

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August 15, 2010 7:31:47 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Cameochi,

RavenX, what you saw could have been an experimental aircraft.  Eglin maybe??  You are not the first person to report something like this.  There was a sighting some years ago in the midwest.  Many people saw a strange, silent aircraft right over the main street of the town.  No question about what they saw.  The military is not talking. 

I am pretty sure there is other intelligent life in the universe but what if they're the intelligent ones and we turn out to be the equivalent of cockroaches or rats?  Read too much Kafka I guess. 

I live not far from the Ocala forest down in Citrus County.  There are some strange doings there and some are military as you probably already know. 

Nice to see a fellow Floridian here on the forums. Welcome my friend. Indeed it's always possible it was some kind of experimental craft. Like I said we were under the flight path the military aircraft would take when going to the bombing range out on the far side of Ocala. You'd think though they would have wanted to stay at a high altitude specifically to keep people from seeing it and Not flying low and scaring the shit out of a poor kid walking to the bus stop at 5 something in the morning lol.

It's pretty interesting how Big the Ocala National forest is as well. Parts of it are in what, 3-4 different counties? That's a Lot of valuable land to set aside for "nature" considering a good 1/4 of our state is unstable swamp in a flood plain that can Never be built on no matter how well it's drained. Yet with all that land that Has to be set aside for nature we take another huge chunk of the state that Will be Needed for humans to spread out as the population grows and set it aside too? Doesn't make much sense even from a "Conservationist" point of view. As much as 250,000 people we're moving to "Central" Florida alone every 6 months back in the late 90's. We're going to need some of that forest for development and the government and Army own a good chunk of it.

Quoting shadowtongue,

I agree that the earth is 'alive' in the sense you describe, but I disagree that we are therefore a parasite on it.  Of course we have shown our ability to alter the environment negatively, but also positively.  The tipping point may come, and at that point we will face the choice of allowing ourselves to die off, or making the changes to prolong our 'lives'.  So far I see no reason to think that we will simply chose to kill ourselves, and if you follow technology advancements, and what drives them, then you might feel a tad better about what we can come up with to 'save' ourselves, or the planet, or both really. 

All the evidence points to the fact that Greed will drive us to keep doing what we're doing till it's too late. We're already right at or past the "tipping point". You think companies all over the world are going to shut down and go out of business because they are spewing tons and tons of damaging chemicals into the atmosphere? Do you know what carbon dioxide does to the ozone? Each carbon dioxide molecule bonds to an ozone molecule and breaks it apart into two more carbon molecules, then those two break apart two more ozone molecules, then those two break four more, and so on and on and they keep going progressively. The carbon molecules first put into the air by the very first car ever made are STILL breaking apart ozone molecules even as I type this very sentence. I'm not even a "tree hugger" and I learned that in 7th grade science class. Even now we've put so much junk into the ozone that it's too late. The damage is also irreversible, and yet they keep doing it anyway. Humans won't stop. As long as someone is making massive amounts of money it will continue.

The same applies to us multiplying like rats. People in areas like deserts know very well that they can't feed themselves and rely on the worlds charity...yet they keep having MORE Kids ANYWAY, even knowing before hand those kids will face starvation on a daily basis. Do they think about that? Do they decide to practice safe sex or use birth control? No!!!! Why? Because if they make more starving mouths to feed we'll just increase the amounts of food we ship them so we (and other charitable countries in the world) can look like we're trying to "do the right thing" and help these poor starving people. What we need to be building over there are factories to make birth control contraceptives and abortion clinics, not passing out free grain and building schools for kids that are going to spend all their adult lives living in straw huts and passing around aids like it's free candy on halloween. I'm not trying to sound harsh but this is the reason why the world is getting closer and closer to the brink of not being able to feed it's population. There are people starving in Every Country on Earth. Even in the more modern and industrialized countries like the US and Canada and Japan. Even in those countries there is an ever growing population of homeless and starving. If those countries can't take it upon themselves to help their own people why are they granting "Humanitarian Aid" to far away countries when we need it right here at home?

Though really I strongly disagree that we are going to devour all the resources on the planet anyway, unless we do so to build some kind of biodome to evacuate the planet when the asteroid does arrive. Mostly because we don't really use up anything. Oh we consume it, and some products are 'destroyed', but most elements are simply used, not transformed, thus they still 'are', only the cost of reclaiming them is right now high. Though I believe we will be able to solve that issue if we are truly pressed to do so, and indeed, for some elements we are showing improved ability to recycle/reclaim.

A lot of resources are being used completely. Devoured and used up. When we use gas the only thing we get back out it is carbon gasses that float off into the atmosphere. We don't reclaim nor do I think we really could or find a good use for them. When we cut down trees and make paper then use that paper to wipe our asses with and flush it back into the ground we make waste. That paper isn't reclaimed and it isn't used to fertilize crops or anything either. The lists of resources that are used up goes on and on and on my friend. While I would agree there are some resources we could be reclaiming but aren't because it's not cost effective, there's also a Massive lack of Want to reclaiming those resources that we don't have and won't bother with even when we Need those resources. Did you know we can extract precious metals from Sea Water? It's true. We can get Gold, Copper, and even Platinum from boiling down Massive Amounts of Sea Water. We could use those resources to be able to once again back the value of our dollar with actual gold and then return the water back to the seas, clean, or use it for drinking or watering crops in arid areas. It's expensive though, so we don't do it on a large scale.

What it comes down is base, old fashioned, human Greed and our lack of Will to Want To Change. We humans are set in our ways. The rich control the poor through modern day economics instead of through an old fashioned "Feudal System" but it's still practically the Same Thing, just disguised with a different name. Instead of us all being indentured servants the rich people build things and make things that the common people want and they sell them to us at incredibly inflated prices and charge us the same pittance of money they give us to work for them to begin with. The governments of the world impose taxes on their citizens and take their money for little or no return. That money gets spent with no authority given by the people who worked for that money. More laws and bills are passed that put money into the hands of crooked politicians and greedy business men and the cycle keeps on going add infinity.

We won't change, even when we see that it's far too late. We'll keep going until we drive ourselves into oblivion because the rich and powerful don't care. If it came down to evacuating the planet do you think they'll take Everyone? I can tell you now they wont. They won't empty out the prisons and jails and take a bunch of criminals to a new world to be safe. They won't empty out the rural villages of third world countries and take those people to a new world to be safe. The rich and powerful will pay for the way to get to the new world and they'll leave....without the common people. They'll only take along the common people they can control. The ones they can make do all the hard work for them while they live off the proceeds of that work. The rest of us will be left behind on the shit hole spinning through space to meet it's doom.

The sad fact of the matter is that most people in power don't really care about other people. They only care about what they can use other people for. What they can make them do and what they can make them pay for. The major corporations have proven that already.

I think you have too much faith in humanity, my friend. Happy endings only happen in Chinese Massage Parlors and in the Movies, not in Real Life.

 

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August 15, 2010 7:32:40 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting StevenAus,
Unfortutunately, no matter how gloomy and lacking in hope the future looks, all we can do is the best we can.  For example, there is now a super bug that even last resort antibiotics can't kill.  I am just a little bit annoyed that the place where I live doesn't have recycling capabilities.  I see the Australian major political parties unwilling to do even a little bit to limit damaging climate deterioration (I don't believe that climate change is a good enough phrase, because climate "changes" all the time, with or without humans).  But we still have to live life the best we can.  But that definitely does not mean doing nothing.

"If the destination was the only thing important about our lives, every life story would be the same."  After all, we all end up dead, but does that stop us remembering good people? 

Best regards,
Steven.

Btw: I do not know if anyone has ever said that, that's just what I came up with.

Well said, Steve, well said indeed. +1 to you my friend.

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August 15, 2010 7:48:07 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

"Unfortunately", I didn't know how spell that word correctly. <grin>  It's funny how words that are spelt incorrectly can still be read as if they were not spelt incorrectly, as long as they basically look right.

Best regards,
Steven. 

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August 15, 2010 10:31:20 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

G3-

You have observable data that the earth is sentient?

 

Raven-

Paper?  We have more trees now than in the 19th century.  Using up resources?  Use up some copper, or aluminum, or ...  Yeah, we use up resources to produce energy, but as you probably know, the push to renewable energy is already in full swing, and we will get there eventually, or at least to the point where the 'consumables' are not as important as they once were.

 

I don't like the 'drop your credentials' crap on the internet, but sometimes it saves time.  I work at a national lab, in an energy related field, I am up on the scientific literature, and know what's (hopefully) coming.  Of course it could take a couple decades to really get there, but meh, the course is already laid in.

 

Granted, along the way there will be plenty of political issues to get in the way, plenty of religious issues, plenty of 'human' issues.  Though those are no different than they've ever been, but it seems to me that though the process may be slower than we would hope, we do actually learn something from our past, though we don't always quite get it right the next time.

 

Perhaps you think me too optimistic, but I find you far too pessimistic, and seemingly unaware of the pace and breadth of technological developments.  Reality is likely somewhere inbetween.

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August 15, 2010 11:03:41 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Perhaps you think me too optimistic, but I find you far too pessimistic, and seemingly unaware of the pace and breadth of technological developments. Reality is likely somewhere inbetween.

Optimisim is a luxury only afforded to the youth.  The reality is likely to be more 3 Mile Islands, Chernobyls, BP 'leaks' and Exxon Valdez...

...oh...and Union Carbide, "Blue sky mining" [asbestos], Swine Flu, Bird Flu.... over-use of anti-bacterial agents, Thalidomide, DDT, - ad nauseum.

It's a 'safe bet' the list has no end....

But we do.

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August 15, 2010 11:15:02 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

G3-

You have observable data that the earth is sentient?

I never said that. Please read my post.

 

Perhaps you think me too optimistic, but I find you far too pessimistic, and seemingly unaware of the pace and breadth of technological developments. Reality is likely somewhere inbetween.

 

If you work in a lab, in an energy related field, you of all people should know that it's more safe to take a pessimistic approach to a scientific argument. If we assume the worst case scenario, we can prepare ourselves for potential problems, find solutions, and work on developing the technology necessary to deal with these problems. Sure, we can all sit back and assume someone else will find a solution, but we both know that would just be ignorant and lazy. Yeah, some resources won't become scarce because they are renewable. However, there are many other resources which are rapidly running out. For example, rare metals are becoming very scarce, and China has most of the remaining supply. With that said, there is new research suggesting that particle accelerators could be used to create some of them. The point is, the only reason that ongoing research is being done is because scientists assume that this would become a large problem - taking the pessimistic side.

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August 16, 2010 10:52:37 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Jafo-

 

Youth?  I'm no youth by this forums standards I would imagine.  But for every 'disaster' there was also a solution.  That's the point.  So far we have proven rather adept at figuring out how to fix things after we f them up.  Maybe our 'luck' will run out eventually, though I see no reason to take that view over any other view.  Of course there are forces beyond our control, but fortunately for most of them, we are not an input into them either (asteroids, super volcanoes, ...).

 

G3-

 

Read what you wrote?  My point is that you did not read what I wrote.  I clearly stated there was no objective evidence to support a gaian viewpoint that the earth is sentient.

 

Pessimism does not fit in science either, you have to have the drive and belief that you will succeed in your endeavors, else, you wouldn't bother with them in the first place.  And I don't know where you get the 'sit back and let someone else worry about it' attitude from, did I say that's what we should do?  No, I think indeed, I'm stating exactly the opposite.  We (the scientific community) are busting our asses, and have been, trying to get ahead of whatever problems we perceive.  We are working on energy technologies to replace oil/coal, why on earth would you think otherwise?

 

Rare metals are hardly scarce either, it's just a question of will to extract them (from places like Afghanistan) or recycle them.  Of course there is a potential high cost to do any of that, but that's no different than it was decades ago when you believe they were not scarce (apparently).

 

Particle accelerators?  Ok, what rare metals are you talking about exactly?  Isotopes have never been readily available, because their natural abundances are naturally so low.  Actinides?  Lanthanides?  You realize some of these never existed in nature in the first place right?  Uranium?  I think you need to look at Canada...

 

Well I see you are also a pessimist, thinking that the only driver to perform research is to offset future problems.  To be sure, there is an important element in research which strives to do so, but the core of basic R&D has little to do with this.  Often it's a solution searching for a problem, rather than the other way around.  Though in either case, the scientific community is not idly sitting on their hands waiting for the next crisis to suddenly start running around like chickens with their heads cut off.  Especially in the case of energy research.

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August 16, 2010 12:13:42 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Read what you wrote? My point is that you did not read what I wrote. I clearly stated there was no objective evidence to support a gaian viewpoint that the earth is sentient.

You were the one who misinterpreted my first argument and failed to see the point the second time I stated it. Let me quote it for you -

I should have specified saying that I meant from an ecological standpoint, the life on this planet would be in equilibrium without humans around.

There. This is the argument I was trying to make, I never said anything about a "sentient planet," so please stop bringing it up. You failed to miss the point two separate times so lets just leave that subject alone.

Pessimism does not fit in science either, you have to have the drive and belief that you will succeed in your endeavors, else, you wouldn't bother with them in the first place.

I said be pessimistic about the potential scientific problem at hand. If you just assumed the potential problem won't happen, then there would be no research done and no conclusions made, in other words - no progress. I NEVER said you should be pessimistic about your own abilities to carry out the research in the first place. You managed to miss the point, once again.

We (the scientific community) are busting our asses, and have been, trying to get ahead of whatever problems we perceive. We are working on energy technologies to replace oil/coal, why on earth would you think otherwise?

This statement supports the point I'm trying to make. We assume that there will be a major problem with the shortage/pollution from oil/coal (a pessimistic approach), so that we can prepare for any potential consequences. It makes sense.

Rare metals are hardly scarce either, it's just a question of will to extract them (from places like Afghanistan) or recycle them. Of course there is a potential high cost to do any of that, but that's no different than it was decades ago when you believe they were not scarce (apparently).

I'm surprised how uninformed you are for working in an energy lab. We are running out of rare metals which are found in laptop computers, hybrid car batteries, iPhones, magnets, catalytic converters, night vision goggles, solar panels, and wind turbines. I'd say those items are pretty popular. The push for green energy is causing a dramatic increase in demand for these rare metals. It is being projected that the world will need 200,000 tons of rare earth elements by the year 2014. Should we be optimistic and assume we won't run out? I think not.

LINK

LINK

 

Well I see you are also a pessimist, thinking that the only driver to perform research is to offset future problems.

I am optimistic about many things, but when it comes to modern science and technology, I think it's best to predict and make assumptions about future problems so we can address them earlier. Also, I think most research is carried out to either solve or prevent a potential problem. Yes, there is research done to better educate ourselves about a certain aspect of science, but the purpose of this information will most likely be used to either make our lives more simple, or enable us to be better at surviving.

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August 16, 2010 3:25:28 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

G3-

 

I was quite clear in stating that you were sounding like a Gaian and my objection was to that.  You're not a Gaian, problem solved.

 

But if you persist in talking about 'equilibrium' then I'll simply have to assume you don't understand how the earth functions, or what equilibrium normally means, because equilibrium is not something the planet finds itself in ever, humans nonwithstanding.  Perhaps you want to make your argument in terms of how long it takes for 'equilibrium' to shift, in which case you say humans accelerate the rate of change, but not that there isn't change without human activity in the first place.

 

I said be pessimistic about the potential scientific problem at hand.

So you did, but I don't know what you mean when you say that apparently.  Being pessimistic or optimistic about a problem is a measure of what you feel about the chances of solving it, not a measure of the magnitude of the problem itself.  But it seems we agree about the outcome, even if we disagree about how to use pessimistic/optimistic as an adjective.

 

We are running out of rare metals which are found in laptop computers, hybrid car batteries, iPhones, magnets, catalytic converters, night vision goggles, solar panels, and wind turbines.

 

No, we are not running out of them.  We are running out of getting them cheaply, or you could have just read what I wrote and seen that I essentially said what your second link stated.  But my point all along was that these materials are not the same as oil or coal because they are not destroyed as oil or coal are when they are 'used'.  Further the economics of production dictates that even as a shortage beings the impetus will be to rectify that.  More and better recycling, new mines, higher costs, ...  Some good some bad, but 'running out' is pure exaggeration.

 

Yes, there is research done to better educate ourselves about a certain aspect of science, but the purpose of this information will most likely be used to either make our lives more simple, or enable us to be better at surviving.

 

Eventually, but not initially, when there is no conception of how knowledge about subatomic particles, or dark matter, or string theory, or... will benefit anyone.

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August 16, 2010 3:59:57 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

But if you persist in talking about 'equilibrium' then I'll simply have to assume you don't understand how the earth functions, or what equilibrium normally means, because equilibrium is not something the planet finds itself in ever, humans nonwithstanding.

I'm sorry if I use the term equilibrium inappropriately, but what I mean is that life is balanced by natural selection, evolution, predation, and many other things. Biologists and Ecologists have devised all of these equations to represent natural selection and life cycles and many other things, but humans simply do not follow the same "rules" that others are forced to follow. Also, not only are humans unaffected by most of these, but we also throw off the balance for other organisms on this planet. Without humans around, all of the biological concepts would occur in harmony without our disturbance. This is a metaphorical equilibrium of life on Earth.

So you did, but I don't know what you mean when you say that apparently. Being pessimistic or optimistic about a problem is a measure of what you feel about the chances of solving it, not a measure of the magnitude of the problem itself. But it seems we agree about the outcome, even if we disagree about how to use pessimistic/optimistic as an adjective.

Yes, we do agree. I was simply stating that an optimist would not be motivated to take the necessary steps to deal with a potential problem because in their opinion, it won't be a problem. Assuming the worst is safe, and therefore a better approach. However, with that said, you should always be optimistic about your work, especially in research, since you will fail many more times than you will succeed.

 

No, we are not running out of them. We are running out of getting them cheaply, or you could have just read what I wrote and seen that I essentially said what your second link stated. But my point all along was that these materials are not the same as oil or coal because they are not destroyed as oil or coal are when they are 'used'.

It seems the media wants us to believe we're running out. You're probably right, it might just be an exaggeration. However, there's still a problem worth pursuing here. If it's getting more expensive to get them, or if they are only found in certain places, you know people and countries will stop exporting them. As I said before, newer technology is dependent on these rare metals, so supply will sharply drop in the next few years. Since we greatly rely on the technology which uses these metals, it's worth looking for a suitable replacement which is cheaper and easier to get. It was just an example of humans draining a particular resource which they depend on, a concept which I believe we'll observe many more times in the future.

 

Eventually

Bingo. It's important that we try to understand everything around us so we can grow as a species.

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