Diplomatic Capital: Big Beta Tester Win!

By on July 24, 2010 10:11:57 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001
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The concept of diplomatic capital as a resource came from the beta community and WOW does it provide a lot of use.

Diplomatic Capital can be earned through the diplomacy tree as well as certain very rare resources on the map.

If you hold onto it, you gain advantages in the value of trading things.

 

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Now, when trading with the AI, you never get a 1 to 1 ratio (you can’t trade 10 materials for 20 materials).  But what happens is that as players get better diplomatic capital ratios, they get better and better deals.

But on the other hand, if you need the money right now, you can spend it:

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I think there’s a lot we can do with this concept as we go forward. It definitely gives diplomacy some teeth, especially when we get into getting various players to declare war on each other.

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July 24, 2010 10:25:35 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Sure it seems great for the AI... But you still need to give it some real concrete value for human v human games.

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July 24, 2010 10:26:32 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

do we have any multiplayer consequences for this? Can we use it with minor factions, etc?

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July 24, 2010 10:34:02 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Sarudak,
Sure it seems great for the AI... But you still need to give it some real concrete value for human v human games.

If it's just 1 on 1 in human games then it won't do anything.

But I won't lose sleep over that.

 

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July 24, 2010 10:36:42 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Frogboy,

Quoting Sarudak, reply 1Sure it seems great for the AI... But you still need to give it some real concrete value for human v human games.

If it's just 1 on 1 in human games then it won't do anything.

But I won't lose sleep over that.

 

Of course. But what about 2v2 ? Or 1 v 1 v 1?

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July 24, 2010 10:43:26 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

it's like paper money...has no real value but can buy anything.  So long as people have a need for something they can't simply get by producing or taking, then trading one resource for DC and then DC for what they're missing, it'll work.

Some players might prefer not to trade at all, but for those who are more open to diplomacy, this will be great, and i look foward to seeing how it's taken further:)

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July 24, 2010 10:43:45 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting OMG_BlackHatHedgehog,

Quoting Frogboy, reply 3
Quoting Sarudak, reply 1Sure it seems great for the AI... But you still need to give it some real concrete value for human v human games.

If it's just 1 on 1 in human games then it won't do anything.

But I won't lose sleep over that.

 

Of course. But what about 2v2 ? Or 1 v 1 v 1?

Amazingly, I still won't lose sleep over diplomatic capital not having an effect in human only multiplayer games.

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July 24, 2010 10:51:50 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

There is always the option of later addons for alternate usage AGAINST OR FOR players.  I.E. spend diplo to reduce your enemies production/food/research or boost an allies. Easy enough to also just add in FORCED trading with humans via diplotech. I.E. more or less demands weighted by spending, that would be able to force certain turnovers of units/cities/resources whether or not the 'human' behind the game agreed.

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July 24, 2010 10:56:22 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I'd imagine in MP being able to manipulate AI players to be a big deal.

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July 24, 2010 11:03:15 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Frogboy,
I'd imagine in MP being able to manipulate AI players to be a big deal.

Oh I agreed, for now.  However, there is no reason that it can't be made to work against players later(say 1.1 or 1st xpack).  Diplomatic capital gives a definable value on things like reputation and fame/infamy. 

Forces Ceasefires, Involatile borders, Champion treason, these are things that could get bring diplomatic capital into the player realm as well, and would make players MORE THAN WILLING to do things like exchange Iron or Ythril for 'diplomatic capital'.

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July 24, 2010 11:03:36 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I do believe that diplomacy points are going to need some actual "real world" value. Maybe they can be cashed in for items or quests or for special city specific abilities (ie. bonus to trade or income). Again, they are PERFECT for singleplayer but just need a little meat for balancing.

 

Then again, I find myself arguing FOR multiplayer balancing... and I HATE doing that. Base the game around a solid single-player game and worry about multiplayer "balancing" last and not at the expense of single-player experience. Too many solid and amazing games lost a lot of their meat due to "multiplayer balancing". I'd hate to see that happen here.

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July 24, 2010 11:06:23 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Well, it's definitely a step forward but when I opened this thread I was expecting to see something about how diplomatic capital had been reworked to have meaning in player vs player games. I'm not completely in love the artificial advantage diplomatic capital will now give over the AI. There were a lot of great ideas put forward by the other testers but I understand that they involved significantly more work.

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July 24, 2010 11:06:49 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Too many solid and amazing games lost a lot of their meat due to "multiplayer balancing". I'd hate to see that happen here.

Yeah, I too would rather see MP being a little out of whack for a better SP experience, but some ppl live for MP soooo... can't win them all I guess.

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July 24, 2010 11:19:04 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting OMG_BlackHatHedgehog,

Quoting Frogboy, reply 3
Quoting Sarudak, reply 1Sure it seems great for the AI... But you still need to give it some real concrete value for human v human games.

If it's just 1 on 1 in human games then it won't do anything.

But I won't lose sleep over that.

 
Of course. But what about 2v2 ? Or 1 v 1 v 1?

 

On top of such games being rather rare as opposed to the thousands of single player games people will play... I highly doubt you would work on the diplomatic tree to do peaceful trading in only human player games . The whole diplomatic tree is sorta pointless vs just human players.

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July 24, 2010 11:23:10 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Frogboy,

Quoting Sarudak, reply 1Sure it seems great for the AI... But you still need to give it some real concrete value for human v human games.
If it's just 1 on 1 in human games then it won't do anything.

But I won't lose sleep over that.

 

That is actually extremely disappointing. I accept (reluctantly) that you want Elemental to skew towards the singleplayer side at the expense of multiplayer (fundamentally I disagree with this). But dismissing a core mechanic of the game in such an offhand manner is premature on your part.

I am not going to lie, the diplomatic capital idea that you have here is very primitive. Having said that, it should be very easy for you guys to think of a way to integrate this meaningfully into multiplayer. For example, diplomatic capital could be imposed on a human player as a "tax" or tariff when trading. So if Player A has more diplomatic capital than Player B then Player A's goods are worth more than Player B's goods.

 

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July 24, 2010 11:33:36 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting marlowwe,

Quoting Frogboy, reply 3
Quoting Sarudak, reply 1Sure it seems great for the AI... But you still need to give it some real concrete value for human v human games.
If it's just 1 on 1 in human games then it won't do anything.

But I won't lose sleep over that.




 

That is actually extremely disappointing. I accept (reluctantly) that you want Elemental to skew towards the singleplayer side at the expense of multiplayer (fundamentally I disagree with this). But dismissing a core mechanic of the game in such an offhand manner is premature on your part.

I am not going to lie, the diplomatic capital idea that you have here is very primitive. Having said that it should be very easy for you guys to think of a way to integrate this meaningfully into multiplayer. For example, diplomatic capital could be imposed on a human player as a "tax" or tariff when trading. So if Player A has more diplomatic capital than Player B then Player A's goods are worth more than Player B's goods.

 

 

If someone comes up with an interesting way to use it in multiplayer we'll certainly look at implementing it.  

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July 24, 2010 11:34:06 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Frogboy did you guys see my suggestion about diplomatic capital being representative of the respect of the people and thus giving it possible concrete in game value?

 

REPOSTED from balancing thread:

I don't know if this has been mentioned because I only skimmed over the thread but I had an idea to make diplomatic capital and the diplomacy tech tree of value even in multiplayer. The fundamental idea is:

 

Diplomatic Capital = The respect of the people

This implies that your words (or that of those who speak for you less so) has added weight. This could allow you to do things like give an inspirational speech in one of your cities at the cost of diplomatic capital that would boost production dramatically for a period. Alternatively you could denounce the rulership of another sovereign in an enemy city slowing production or even throwing the city into revolt. Diplomatic capital should also be used to recruit heroes (those looking for a worthy cause as opposed to a quick buck) or possibly even to sway soldiers away from an enemies cause. Thinking this way diplomatic capital could be expended toward a whole host of options that could act similarly to non-magical spells. These options would need to be unlocked by technology (study of psychology), and would be modified in effectiveness based on a units charisma rating. Certain actions would award diplomatic capital (picking the noble choice on a quest, honoring an allies request for assistance, killing terrible creatures that are scaring everyone), and some would deduct diplomatic capital (breaking treaties, sneak attacks, picking the cowardly choice on quests). What does everyone think?

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July 24, 2010 11:36:10 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Furycrab,

Quoting OMG_BlackHatHedgehog, reply 4
Quoting Frogboy, reply 3
Quoting Sarudak, reply 1Sure it seems great for the AI... But you still need to give it some real concrete value for human v human games.

If it's just 1 on 1 in human games then it won't do anything.

But I won't lose sleep over that.
 
Of course. But what about 2v2 ? Or 1 v 1 v 1?

On top of such games being rather rare as opposed to the thousands of single player games people will play... I highly doubt you would work on the diplomatic tree to do peaceful trading in only human player games . The whole diplomatic tree is sorta pointless vs just human players.

I was hoping it would be similar to Sins Diplomacy. Even in pure-human games the Diplomacy trees are very useful because of Pacts. Yes, in general the Diplomacy expansion has its full potential in singleplayer. But that doesn't mean certain elements can't have a use in multi-player (or LAN. Remember, if I want my friends to buy this game, I have to be able to LAN it with them and convince them. I can get 5 people to buy this game, easily and quite possibly up to 10, but it needs to have good LAN). 

MP does not just mean online against strangers, nor does it have to be competitive. We are not bad guys for wanting to have a fun MP experience. When I LAN it's either all human or it's a comp-stomp (humans versus AI). There is no in-between.

DC could be used as a replacement for Gilder when hiring champions. It could be used in order to bribe minor factions to your side. DC could be used similar to Espionage in Civ IV, where you spend Espionage points to cause unrest, poison water wells, or destroy current production. 

It could be made into a resources that is both valuable for manipulating the AI (increases perceived values), valuable for hording for yourself (so you can buy champions or minor factions later), and is useful for using against your humans (espionage). Anything is better than a "dead" resource that no one can use. 

Of course, in a 1v1 then DC will be less useful simply because of the game mode (though still useful. See espionage above). It's you or them winning. No inbetween. But with any other combination of more than 2 players should make DC have an impact. 

 

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July 24, 2010 11:37:21 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I tend to agree with the others here; Diplomatic Capital seems very arbitrary currently, and only works because you've programmed the AI to treat it like it has value, not because it actually has any value.  Paper money works because we're confident the next guy will accept it at face value.  Diplomatic capital?  I'm not confident that anyone would accept it for trade.

How about an option to use Diplomatic Capital to force agreements on enemies, or using it to weasel out of agreements you've made?  That seems to be the concept you're going for.

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July 24, 2010 11:38:09 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting marlowwe,

Quoting Frogboy, reply 3
Quoting Sarudak, reply 1Sure it seems great for the AI... But you still need to give it some real concrete value for human v human games.
If it's just 1 on 1 in human games then it won't do anything.

But I won't lose sleep over that.


 

This is actually extremely disappointing. I accept (reluctantly) that you want Elemental to skew towards the singleplayer side at the expense of multiplayer (fundamentally I disagree with this). But dismissing a core mechanic of the game in such an offhand manner is premature on your part.

I am not going to lie, the diplomatic capital idea that you have here is very primitive. Having said that, it should be very easy for you guys to think of a way to integrate this meaningfully into multiplayer. For example, diplomatic capital could be imposed on a human player as a "tax" or tariff when trading. So if Player A has more diplomatic capital than Player B then Player A's goods are worth more than Player B's goods.

 

 

How is it disappointing that a Diplomatic feature would not be functional in a TBS with multiplayer?  Half the functions in the tree (treaties, agreements and various other things) are mostly non-functional or rather can be established by simple communication like say: Hey don't kill me first, let's kill him.

In multiplayer, it's also more likely players will say fix diplomatic relations. (FFA, 2v2v2 etc...) Diplomacy is fun in theory, in practice, having 3 players gang up on one after 2-3 hrs of working up your stuff is rather lame. Meaning that in fix relations, trading is likely to be much more practical than to sway your opponent.

 

As for trading... Taxes wouldn't work, because if I don't feel like I've gotten enough for my materials (maybe because I have a big army on his border) no amount of diplomatic capital will make me accept the deal. 

 

 

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July 24, 2010 11:56:02 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I have an idea for how Diplomatic Capital could be used in multiplayer.

You could use it to force a player into something. This could work such that trading only Diplomatic Capital for something locks the player into agreement, but only if the percieved values are equal or your's is greater. If you use this method in a trade or treaty you can only use Diplomatic Captial to increase percieved value so that a player couldn't just trade one Diplomatic Capital and a bunch of gold to lock a player into agreement. Think of it working in the same way that it does with an AI, but only working in such a way if only Diplomatic Capital is used (no gold).

This could represent pressure from the people. As in, if you don't agree your people may rebel.

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July 25, 2010 12:01:12 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

If someone comes up with an interesting way to use it in multiplayer we'll certainly look at implementing it. 

 

 

Uses for diplomatic capital in MP:

 

The ability to steal a city or unit, come to the dark side.. we have cookies! 

The ability to challenge a leader for control of a city or unit.. trade window comes up .. you spend your diplomatic capital stuff to take one of their units or something.. they can let it go.. or spend theirs and gold.. ect to make up the difference.

 

This would help those turtle and diplomatic players out a bit.

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July 25, 2010 12:02:17 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Furycrab,

How is it disappointing that a Diplomatic feature would not be functional in a TBS with multiplayer?  Half the functions in the tree (treaties, agreements and various other things) are mostly non-functional or rather can be established by simple communication like say: Hey don't kill me first, let's kill him.
 
 

It is by no means written in stone that all TBS games have singleplayer elements that become immediately useless when translated to a multiplayer environment. This kind of incongruity is only acceptable when the singleplayer element is so well designed and "fun" that the fact that it is not compatible in a multiplayer environment becomes irrelevant. This is not the case here.

 

 

 

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July 25, 2010 12:06:02 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Magnnus,
I have an idea for how Diplomatic Capital could be used in multiplayer.

You could use it to force a player into something. This could work such that trading only Diplomatic Capital for something locks the player into agreement, but only if the percieved values are equal or your's is greater. If you use this method in a trade or treaty you can only use Diplomatic Captial to increase percieved value so that a player couldn't just trade one Diplomatic Capital and a bunch of gold to lock a player into agreement. Think of it working in the same way that it does with an AI, but only working in such a way if only Diplomatic Capital is used (no gold).

This could represent pressure from the people. As in, if you don't agree your people may rebel.

I dunno man, personally I don't like the idea of diplo-rape. It just seems too shenanigansy

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July 25, 2010 12:17:14 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

i thought that diplomatic capital also increases your influence by just having it?  well if that is true then wouldn't that be a good reason to have it?

what about if diplomatic capital(just gonna call it DC) is used by caravans when sent to another player(or AI) cities.  maybe having more would give you more resources on the caravans.

here's a good idea, what about when you level up your cites you SPEND DC on upgrades for your cites instead of just getting them automatically.  you could have some that are fairly inexpensive, but have some that are unlocked with the diplomatic tech that cost alot more, but do some things.  you are being diplomatic with your own people, trying to get them to go along with stuff that might seem harsh.  example:

Martial Law:  by spending DC on this city upgrade you can better protect your city, gives you a bonus to defense, or gives you a free militia unit for that city.

in the end, in order for something to have value, it has to be useful.  i personally don't mind the way it is, but i offer a few ideas, if your interested.

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July 25, 2010 12:19:27 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Diplomatic Capital could easily be thought of as respect of the people.  But it could also represent knowledge of others; the better you know their culture, the better deal you can offer.

Currently, it's simply a 'Quality' trade good, for better trades with the AI.

 

But it could also represent misuse of that respect or knowledge against a target empire.  Or..  Espionage.

Trade sanctions (reduced income).

Inciting civil disobedience (reduced production).

Suborning (buying) units.

Bribing scholars (reducing/stealing tech).

 

And of course, defending your own empire.  The more you hoard, the harder enemy actions are, with a 'cost' when you successfully defend against an operation.

 

Or, you could keep it simply as it is, and add yet another resource for Espionage.

 

 

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