Hijacked Thread: Its now All About Essence, Magic Systems and Grandma's Frog Soup

Quoting Tridus,

But if you're playing a melee sovereign, you can give half of it away and it doesn't really matter. You don't get weaker for doing it the same way a caster sovereign does (since your spells won't be that good anyway due to a lack of investment in INT).

I'd rather see essence divorced from mana and used instead as the imbue people/land, really big spell, and resurrection stat (since you take an essence hit if you die and need to come back). Having a stat where you should spend it and the goal is to figure out the best things to spend it on is more fun then the current implementation, which is a stat you can spend but if you're a caster you really don't want to. I guess that's the fundamental part of what I don't find fun about this system: I've got goodies that I can spend but I get punished for doing so. Unless I'm melee, in which case I can go to town and have more fun.

Give me a bunch of stuff to spend it on so I've got decisions to make, but hoarding is not a fun decision.

(Wisdom can act as the mana cap/regen stat, with Intellect acting as the spell effectiveness stat. Then casters have two primary effective stats, the same as melee folks do with Str/Agi.)

Although I agree with all this (separate essence from mana, allowing casters to actually spend essence), there is an alternative I've been thinking about. You could keep the essence system as is, and give melee sovereigns incentives to worry about essence as much as casters do - powerful melee-oriented buffs that cost 15 mana, abilities that scale off of strength and consume small amounts of mana (encouraging melees to go into battle with more than 5 max mana, if they want to use these abilities repeatedly). If you have to lose max mana when you spend essence, at least make melees worry about max mana as much as casters will.

But really that just makes the system as bad for melees as it is for casters, which is more balanced but less fun. I agree that it'd be a lot more fun if essence was a resource you get to choose how to spend, not a stat that you can't afford to lose because the current amount of it impacts your character's effectiveness.

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Quoting Dagwood,

reply 24

@Reianor - we clearly just have a difference of opinion on this.

By your logic, why even bother having to learn spells at all? We could just spend all arcane knowledge "leveling up" the spell books. Then get all the known spells for each level of each respective book we choose/find.

The only limiting factor on use would be by shard/essence/mana requirements. That's certainly an mechanic I've seen implemented before, and I'd be willing to see how it plays, but I think it cheapens the magic experience.

I don't find it as compelling for the following reasons:

There's no mystery involved... and by extension not as much fun (at least for me). You'll know exactly what spells you will get by researching the next level of a spellbook.
It won't differentiate sovereign's as much... (read: boring). Also, when you face off with another sovereign in tactical combat, it won't be about using the spells deftly that you've wisely chosen to study/learn... it will simply be about who has the most mana and shards... It gives lower level sovereign's a better fighting chance.
There's no investment/reward mechanism at work. No interesting choice to be had. It doesn't force you to think if you want to increase your food production in a city to start an army, or make your sovereign an all-powerful master of fire.
Just my $0.02

I have already stated I am not a fan of learning everything is a spellbook when the nearest shard is forever away, but I can't learn spells for shards I have. I would like that changed to be able to learn spells for things I DO have.

I think the research tree is a good idea in that you aren't guaranteed to learn A tech, but one of several. Why are spells different?

If combining shards to the spell you get some kind of bonus, then owning more shards would mean more. Owning a shard without a spell for it? ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Learning spells seems too easy, at least in 3A. Perhaps you can only learn a spell for a spell casters when they are in a city or temple that they can study in?

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Quoting Blaze of Glory,

reply 27

I have already stated I am not a fan of learning everything is a spellbook when the nearest shard is forever away, but I can't learn spells for shards I have. I would like that changed to be able to learn spells for things I DO have.

I think the research tree is a good idea in that you aren't guaranteed to learn A tech, but one of several. Why are spells different?

If combining shards to the spell you get some kind of bonus, then owning more shards would mean more. Owning a shard without a spell for it? ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Learning spells seems too easy, at least in 3A. Perhaps you can only learn a spell for a spell casters when they are in a city or temple that they can study in?

I saw an awesome solution to the shard/spell book mismatch problem, which I'm going to steal shamelessly because I can't remember who said it first:

Spell books could each cover a certain kind of spell - direct damage book, buffing book, summoning book, etc - with each book containing appropriate spells of all the different elements. So you buy the Evocation Book (direct damage), and whichever shard you get makes an appropriate damage spell available (frost bolt if it's an ice shard, fireball for fire shards, etc). You might make certain books better suited to certain shards - the direct damage book may have more fire spells than earth spells, for example - but the key is no matter what shard and spellbook combination you have, it should give you something. Buy the Enchantment Book (buffs), and a fire shard gives you an attack buff (flaming weapons), earth a defense buff (stone skin), air an attack speed buff, ice.. something else. You get the idea.

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My brain just broke from reading the thread title.

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Quoting Dagwood,

reply 24

@Reianor - we clearly just have a difference of opinion on this.

By your logic, why even bother having to learn spells at all? We could just spend all arcane knowledge "leveling up" the spell books. Then get all the known spells for each level of each respective book we choose/find.

The only limiting factor on use would be by shard/essence/mana requirements. That's certainly an mechanic I've seen implemented before, and I'd be willing to see how it plays, but I think it cheapens the magic experience.

I don't find it as compelling for the following reasons:

There's no mystery involved... and by extension not as much fun (at least for me). You'll know exactly what spells you will get by researching the next level of a spellbook.
It won't differentiate sovereign's as much... (read: boring). Also, when you face off with another sovereign in tactical combat, it won't be about using the spells deftly that you've wisely chosen to study/learn... it will simply be about who has the most mana and shards... It gives lower level sovereign's a better fighting chance.
There's no investment/reward mechanism at work. No interesting choice to be had. It doesn't force you to think if you want to increase your food production in a city to start an army, or make your sovereign an all-powerful master of fire.

Just my $0.02

I agree with Dagwood here. Spell Choice should have a measurable consequences in play. Oooh I didn't research X spell because the resources went to ensure Pubs and drunks litter the cities. This tactical battle is going to suffer because of it.

As with any RPG style game, your choices and how you level up should be relevant through all parts of the game. Currently Magic seems pretty free and easy. It would be nice to see it curtailed to a slightly more strategic decision.

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Quoting Austinvn,

reply 28

Quoting Blaze of Glory, reply 27I have already stated I am not a fan of learning everything is a spellbook when the nearest shard is forever away, but I can't learn spells for shards I have. I would like that changed to be able to learn spells for things I DO have.

I think the research tree is a good idea in that you aren't guaranteed to learn A tech, but one of several. Why are spells different?

If combining shards to the spell you get some kind of bonus, then owning more shards would mean more. Owning a shard without a spell for it? ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Learning spells seems too easy, at least in 3A. Perhaps you can only learn a spell for a spell casters when they are in a city or temple that they can study in?

I saw an awesome solution to the shard/spell book mismatch problem, which I'm going to steal shamelessly because I can't remember who said it first:

Spell books could each cover a certain kind of spell - direct damage book, buffing book, summoning book, etc - with each book containing appropriate spells of all the different elements. So you buy the Evocation Book (direct damage), and whichever shard you get makes an appropriate damage spell available (frost bolt if it's an ice shard, fireball for fire shards, etc). You might make certain books better suited to certain shards - the direct damage book may have more fire spells than earth spells, for example - but the key is no matter what shard and spellbook combination you have, it should give you something. Buy the Enchantment Book (buffs), and a fire shard gives you an attack buff (flaming weapons), earth a defense buff (stone skin), air an attack speed buff, ice.. something else. You get the idea.

+Karma to that idea. (whomever came up with it)

I don't mind having shard based books as well, however, it seems stealing a bit from Magic the Gathering wouldn't hurt. All colors, even colorless can summon creatures. Each with various benefits per summon. A book of summoning has an allotment of creatures each with different powers based on shard control. Neat.

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StevenAus22

Join Date 06/2010

+110

Quoting Austinvn,

reply 28

I saw an awesome solution to the shard/spell book mismatch problem, which I'm going to steal shamelessly because I can't remember who said it first:

Spell books could each cover a certain kind of spell - direct damage book, buffing book, summoning book, etc - with each book containing appropriate spells of all the different elements. So you buy the Evocation Book (direct damage), and whichever shard you get makes an appropriate damage spell available (frost bolt if it's an ice shard, fireball for fire shards, etc). You might make certain books better suited to certain shards - the direct damage book may have more fire spells than earth spells, for example - but the key is no matter what shard and spellbook combination you have, it should give you something. Buy the Enchantment Book (buffs), and a fire shard gives you an attack buff (flaming weapons), earth a defense buff (stone skin), air an attack speed buff, ice.. something else. You get the idea.

Quoting AceQ,

reply 31

+Karma to that idea. (whomever came up with it)

I don't mind having shard based books as well, however, it seems stealing a bit from Magic the Gathering wouldn't hurt. All colors, even colorless can summon creatures. Each with various benefits per summon. A book of summoning has an allotment of creatures each with different powers based on shard control. Neat.

I agree with this too.

Best regards,
Steven.

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I would like to weave some essence and channel some of my shards power into creating a weapon, perhaps even a weapon of mass destruction. Can I do that?

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Quoting Austinvn,

reply 28

I saw an awesome solution to the shard/spell book mismatch problem, which I'm going to steal shamelessly because I can't remember who said it first:

Spell books could each cover a certain kind of spell - direct damage book, buffing book, summoning book, etc - with each book containing appropriate spells of all the different elements. So you buy the Evocation Book (direct damage), and whichever shard you get makes an appropriate damage spell available (frost bolt if it's an ice shard, fireball for fire shards, etc). You might make certain books better suited to certain shards - the direct damage book may have more fire spells than earth spells, for example - but the key is no matter what shard and spellbook combination you have, it should give you something. Buy the Enchantment Book (buffs), and a fire shard gives you an attack buff (flaming weapons), earth a defense buff (stone skin), air an attack speed buff, ice.. something else. You get the idea.

Austinvn, I referenced that idea\thread as well in my initial response (in this thread)... Here it is if you want to check it out again. Frogboy took notice of it also.

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My initial turn on to this game was the entire idea of a sovereign being a decision point in and of itself - keep all the essence and be a bad ass adventurer, or give up your essence to make your empire more powerful.

I like the idea of a finite system, completely unrelated to mana. Mana is stat based, standard RPG fare. Spells are limited by starting spellbooks, found spellbooks, research and shards for higher level spells.

Start with X essence - say 10 for example. That 10 essence separates you out from your citizens, your warriors, and the champions. Essence would have a base benefit to make the sovereign a badass - +1 or +2 to all stats per point of essence (i.e. start with 10 str, have 10 essence = 20 or 30 str). So right off the bat the sovereign is tough. Balancing would be needed so the Sov stays tough to about 2/5 through the game or halfway or so. Taking on small groups, most mobs, etc singlehandedly...maybe grouped with a couple champions to level them up.

Possibilities:

Sovereign may not level up in this scenario
or unable to use normal items (sov only items?)
Seen as a somewhat static force while his empire grows around, a champion could someday surpass the sov in pwr.

From game start the player then makes strategic choices:

Use essence to buff another champion - champion gets stronger, sov gets weaker
Use essence to buff a city or the countryside - create a resource, citywide buff for economy/production, etc. Cheaper versions require sov presence, more expensive do not.
Use essence to craft an item to be used by a champion a la MoM
Use essence to cast a bad ass spell - end game world enchantments a la MoM
Use essence for a huge summons - either a big mob or multiple med or swarm of tiny
At some point the player would have to decide what to do with a sov - hide him or keep him out but support him because he's overmatched. Have sov death decrease essence, so its a riskier proposition to keep him leading your armies.

The end goal being a decision on whether to have a mobile force, an at home buffer and work through your champions/army or a mix. Essentially a modular building system with a finite amount of "points" that can be dynamically decided upon.

edit: Certain rare and powerful items could possibly be used to increase essence (or go the sov only item route). Additionally, tie in dynasty - possibly kids steal a bit of essence in the sense that its one pool. As they grow, they gather more and you decrease. You DON'T want a ton of kids as it makes you weaker, but also can keep your empire going if the initial sov dies. Possibly limit how much can be "shared" which would limit # of kids, making them more important. Either scrap the idea that a kid (frequently it seems) goes to another faction, or EVIL sov ability becomes really alluring

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@Frogboy

Since you asked for ideas on Essence, I posted my idea in the following thread (both kailen3's and my take on it are very similar)

https://forums.elementalgame.com/387478/#2681661

Basically:

1.) Essence is a global resource like food (does not accumulate like gold/materials, but acts like food does)

2.) It is gained through land withing your borders and special buildings/sites

3.) It is spent on:

a. Cities (To make the land fertile) - This will limit the amount of cities in the game

b. Powerful units

c.) Enchanted weapons/armor

4.) It is gained back when losing cities, enchanted items, powerful units (just like food is gained back when selling huts)

Mana on the other hand is determined by each Champions wisdom, and multiplied through powerful buildings (after research)

E.g. Sovereign has 15 Wisdom, so 15 mana

You build a Wizard Tower, which increases each Champions Mana to Wisdom x2

Sovereign now has 30 mana

(Essence could also be spend to turn Champions into 'mobile wizarding devices' for the Sovereign, in that case you could limit magic to the Sovereign, but he could cast THROUGH his champions - and thereby take an active role even in battles he doesnt attend - just like in MoM)

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I'm not too clear on what essence is now, but I think it would be cool if it was like magic blood. Maybe parallel to chi, or to the glowing veins that appear on your character's body in Fable 2. When you give some of your essence to a champion, it's like you're giving him your blood. There could also be magic attacks that drain essence, and if essence hits zero you die.

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Quoting Luckmann,

reply 29

My brain just broke from reading the thread title.

Awesome... that was the intent... got in you here it didn't... lol.

Frog Soup Recipe here:

http://www.foodreference.com/html/frog-soup-913.html

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Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2420

Here is an example of what QA is dealing with:

Was victory by conquest tested?
Was there a meaningful victory screen?
Was the score screen working with real numbers?
Was there a cut scene for victory with sound?
Was victory by the Master Quest tested?
Were you able to achieve the Master Quest playing normally through? (no cheating)
Was there a cut scene played for winning the Master Quest and did it have sound?
Did a score screen come up with meaningful numbers?
Was victory by casting the Spell of Making tested?
Was it achieved through playing the game normally?
Was there a cut scene with sound?
Did you get a meaningful score screen with numbers that made sense?
Was victory by Diplomatic Alliance (alliance with all players) tested?
Did you get a diplomatic victory through normal testing?
Did you get a cut scene?
Did the diplomatic victory have a meaningful score and text?
Were you able to test the above 16 playing both as a faction of the Kingdom and a faction of the Empire?
Were you able to play an entire game through on a large map with 10 players without it crashing or running out of memory?
Were you able to LOSE a game with the AI players set on normal?
Do all of the monsters have the correct corresponding thumbnails and medallions?
Did all of the quests you came across function as designed?
Did all of the goodie huts function as designed?
Did all of the spells you use function as designed?
Is the real introductory cut scene in?
Were you able to play completely through the campaign in one try?
Were you able to play part way through the campaign, save, reload Elemental and continue without a problem?
Did the campaign have an intro video?
Did the campaign have a conclusion video and end dialog?
Did the campaign function as you would expect?
Were you able to build all of the improvements in your cities that you expected?
Did you test the above as both a faction of the Kingdom as well as one of the Empire?
Did you create a custom sovereign?
Did you test all of the sovereign abilities to see if they functioned as described?
Were you able to load multiple save games without a problem? Check the cloth map, did anything weird happen with the mountains on the cloth map?
Were you able to start a new game from within a game several times in a row?
Were you able to change the different victory condition settings on the world setup screen and have them work as expected?
Are all of the options on the option screen functioning as you would expect?
Are all of the entries in the Hiergamenon (little help book in the top right) present?
Were you able to use the Hiergamenon without any stability issues?
Were you able to go through the warfare/conquest technology tree and design units adequately without cosmetic glitches?
Were you able to zoom in on the land without cosmetic glitches?
Were you able to construction a Catapult (or equivalent) for both Kingdom and Empire?
Did you fight a battle with a Catapult (or equiv) with both Kingdom and Empire?
Were you able to do the above in a tactical battle?
Were you able to train mounted units as both Kingdom and Empire?
Did you fight tactical battles on mounted units without any problems with both Kingdom and Empire?
Do both Kingdom and Empire have a lay siege technology?
Did you try laying siege to an enemy?
Did laying siege function as described and work clearly? (it is supposed to cut target settlment form the global resource tree)
Did you get a city to go into famine? (This is where you lay siege to a city that has lots of houses but few food resources, once cut off from the global supply they will go into famine)
Did the famined city function as you would expect?
Did train a Caravan unit as both a Kingdom and Empire type faction?
Did you send Caravans to other settlements in your faction?
Did roads get built?
Were the bonuses provided by Caravans clearly conveyed to you by the game?
Were you able to send caravans to foreign cities?
Were you able to send caravans to foreign cities you were at war with? IF so, what happened? (you shouldn’t be able to do this and the game should bring up an error dialog with people booing your carvan)
Do Kingdom units get a 25% reduction to their attack and defense when in Imperial territory? (i.e. scary land style)
Do Imperial units get a 25% reduction to their attack and defense when in Kingdom territory (pretty grassland)
Is the end of turn length reasonable late game? (performance)
Does the Multiplayer button (which should be enabled) prompt you to update the game to the latest version to play online?
Does the Workshop button (which should be enabled) prompt you to update the game to the latest version to play online?
Were you able to train ships (transports) as both a kingdom and empire faction?
Were you able to put units on it the ship, send it somewhere and have the units successfully disembark?
Were you able to send an army of 25 units into a tactical battle successfully?
Were you able to play the game successfully on a Windows XP, SP3 machine with an nVidia 7x and 8x series?
Were you able to play the game successfully on a Windows XP, SP3 machine with a supported Intel based graphics device?
Were you able to do all of the above playing the game FULL SCREEN
Were you able to alt-esc out of the game and back at various arbitrary points without incident?
Were you able to play the game FULL SCREEN on a computer that has a video adapter temperature measuring program? Did the temperature go higher than it would on a typical modern PC game?
Are you promoted to elevate when installing from DVD on 7/Vista?
Does the Easy installation complete?
Does the Advanced installation complete (with a non-default folder set)?
Does the game automatically run at the end of the installation unless you clear the checkbox on the last panel of the installer?
Does Elemental run without requesting activation?
Does Elemental run if you set your clock ahead to December 2011? (this maybe subject to revision on forcing a check for updates)
Does Elemental run if you have no Internet connection?
Set your location to France, your timezone to match, and your keyboard to UK - English. Does the RTM build (next week) prompt you to update rather than allowing you to play the game?
Are DirectX and the Visual Studio 2005/2008 Redistributables installed on a clean system from the DVD?
Is Impulse installed from the DVD that allows Facebook logons? (no impulse shortcut on the desktop)
Can you register a new Impulse account and an Elemental serial with Impulse?
Can you register with a new Facebook account and an Elemental serial with Impulse?
Can you register with a new Facebook account and an Elemental serial with Impulse while linking to an existing Impulse account?
Is a Games Explorer icon created on 7/Vista that directly launches the game?
Do the menu items on the Games Explorer shortcut work correctly?
Are shortcuts to the Elemental Launcher (ELLaunch.exe) and Manual (ElementalManual.pdf) created in Programs\Stardock Games\Elemental - War of Magic? Also, a desktop shortcut directly to Elemental.exe.
Do the shortcuts work as expected?
Does the launcher gadget work as expected?

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Does the launcher gadget work as expected?

No, since it does not have taskbar presence, so if you unfocus from it, the only way to get it back is by minimizing all other windows to desktop

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Are shortcuts to the Elemental Launcher (ELLaunch.exe) and Manual (ElementalManual.pdf) created in Programs\Stardock Games\Elemental - War of Magic? Also, a desktop shortcut directly to Elemental.exe.

windows xp 86a no 86b no 86 c yes

win7 86a no 86b no 86 c yes

harpo

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At the change of topic...

There is no hope. All your threads are belong to us. HA-HA-HA...

Quoting Dagwood,

reply 24

@Reianor - we clearly just have a difference of opinion on this.

By your logic, why even bother having to learn spells at all? We could just spend all arcane knowledge "leveling up" the spell books. Then get all the known spells for each level of each respective book we choose/find.

The only limiting factor on use would be by shard/essence/mana requirements. That's certainly an mechanic I've seen implemented before, and I'd be willing to see how it plays, but I think it cheapens the magic experience.

I don't find it as compelling for the following reasons:

There's no mystery involved... and by extension not as much fun (at least for me). You'll know exactly what spells you will get by researching the next level of a spellbook.
It won't differentiate sovereign's as much... (read: boring). Also, when you face off with another sovereign in tactical combat, it won't be about using the spells deftly that you've wisely chosen to study/learn... it will simply be about who has the most mana and shards... It gives lower level sovereign's a better fighting chance.
There's no investment/reward mechanism at work. No interesting choice to be had. It doesn't force you to think if you want to increase your food production in a city to start an army, or make your sovereign an all-powerful master of fire.

Just my $0.02

Yep, we do. But I think you are misinterpreting mine.

We have an investment/reward mechanism already. Player can chose how much effort he puts into spell research if any.
There is no forced choice mechanism. If Player wants every spell he can get them all. If he wants only some he can get these and skip the rest. Be my guest - chose your spells, play your guessing game, save some effort by building less AR buildings, spending less RP/SCP* on books. My choice is - less guessing more effort.
The only limiting factors are indeed shard/essence/mana. For the other factors player himself decides how much magic he wants.
There will not be any more mystery involved anyway. Unless SD makes spell research as random as normal research, and that's not a meaningful choice, that's just even more random than we have.
Sovereigns are not the same. What makes you think every sovereign will choose to have every book and every spell? What makes you think every sovereign will even chose to have any magic in the first place?

Bottom line - I don't want every sovereign to ignore the spell choice, I want some sovereigns to have an option to ignore the spell choice at expense of other things, the way it currently is.

Edit: Forgot to say by SCP i mean sovereign creation points.

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Quoting Frogboy,

reply 39

Here is an example of what QA is dealing with:

Long list of things.

Do you want us to comment on theses thing during our beta 3B feedback or should we leave these issues in the hand of QA and focus on other things?

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