Lore inconsistencies

By on June 21, 2010 10:51:42 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Hound

Join Date 03/2008
+10
The world was broken.

Now…

Civilization is gone. Life hangs by a thread.

The only hope for Elemental is you.
The backstory was quite the inspiring read.
But then the game starts a century later and...
General Carrodus' background states he made his way to the City of Ruvenna. So there is civilization after all?
The Kingdoms still exist, have they rebuilt already in a century?
Only the campaign supports the lore and other games should be considered separate?
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June 22, 2010 6:11:31 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting shadowtongue,
My take on this was that the concern was that the 'need' for lore was forceing some of the mechanics/design to take a back seat (not saying I agree with this interpretation, but that's what I got out of it).

 

I agree that that would be a valid concern as well, and I do share it to a degree, though nothing to do with Brad getting a book published.  However, I am in the camp who didn't like the 'cute' aspect of GC2, and hope that EWoM is more 'serious'.  Thoguh I'm guessing I will be dissapointed there, and shouted down by those who would rather not hear contrary opinions.

 

Because that's exactly what happened to me in the GC forums, and this seems to be essentially the same crowd.

 

I've no real problems with fanbots though, just funny when they don't seem to realize that's all they are

 

Don't worry about the humor thing. I'm pretty sure it's been said that Elemental will be much more serious in tone than GlaCivII.

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June 22, 2010 6:20:08 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Many things are said which may or may not come to pass.

 

It's not really a huge deal to me, but I would prefer a slightly 'darker' look and feel to the game than what I've seen so far.  Everything looks a bit too 'cartoony' for my tastes.  I will just have to assume that at some point somone will come up with a mod which suits my visual tastes, since I'm no artist (or modder for that matter).

 

I guess my feeling is that my imersion into the game is likely to not rely on the Lore, though that doesn't mean I think that the Lore has no place.  Only that it is secondary (or even not high) on my list of important factors which will allow me  to feel more in tune with the game.

 

To some degree, the only thing I care about are the game mechanics, everything else is secondary, because no matter how good the 'fluff' is, if the core is rotten, it's not going to hold my attention anyway.

 

And I'm not saying that anything is rotten, or even that I suspect anything will be.

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June 22, 2010 6:31:11 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting shadowtongue,
I've no real problems with fanbots though, just funny when they don't seem to realize that's all they are
Fanboys are fanboys, trolls are trolls, and the world goes round and round. The apple is different depending on which angle you look it.

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June 22, 2010 10:03:57 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Wintersong,

Quoting shadowtongue, reply 50I've no real problems with fanbots though, just funny when they don't seem to realize that's all they are Fanboys are fanboys, trolls are trolls, and the world goes round and round. The apple is different depending on which angle you look it.

The funny thing is that I avoid posting to certain threads because I feel like I'm responding emotionally rather than critically. Critically I'd say that many trolls on the forums exist only because of these early alpha releases as betas, in the same way many of the fanboys are encouraged by the exact same things. Audience participation means cheers and boos rather than a quiet appreciation. The amount of discussion from the devs over certain ideas isn't as much as many would wish, but is far more than is expected. It raises the bar for future work in gaming in terms of community interaction and integration. (also, being cynical, probably lowering costs of in-house testing)

The combined capacity of so many individuals has it's benefits when all tackle a problem (like bug reporting, idea suggestion) but there will always be significant differences in the desired elements in the vanilla game. No game is ever perfect, I think many people feel like this is their game... and want it to be perfect. It's not a bad thing, it just makes people slightly more passionate than is always appropriate. But on the original topic... could we have a generic fantasy setting using the game engine? probably... and it may not take very much work once the engine is in place and the gameplay refined. If we can make custom tiles for workshops we can make a 'harpy cliff' or 'troglodyte cavern' and such with custom creature summons or unit production requiring said buildings... or make wandering adventurers 'beholders' and such... although the aforementioned focus on the DnD universe will be replaced by your particular fancy/fantasy. I play Sins with the mad scientist mod, distant stars and some starwars mods... but it always relies on the game engine... which is something we have to help with if we ever want our own pet projects and dreams to become a reality... I like the visuals, but I can imagine that after the effort gone into it only complete conversions will replace enough of the artwork to appeal to some... (like an alpha centauri/in space mod/grungy dark gothic mods)

I think I'm a fanboy... although I strive not to be...  I'd like a dominions 3 amount of background and mom level of item creation and X-com everything else (I loved using cheap weapons and raiding the cult' while psionically forcing them to arm grenades and drop them... not sure what the magical equivalent would be... throw their weapons backwards? and then run naked at the nearest unit and punch? However it's done I'd like to have a small number of units, never have them do stupid things and always look forward to the next battle... which sounds impossible, you always have more units in the late game, if you rely on the AI when units have no orders you have reduced control and battles will either be slightly repetative and easy or random, confusing and hard with the level of fun swinging as you reach either extreme)

I suppose i'm easy to please... if I can make skeletons I'm happy. Giant monsters with psionic abilities able to flay the skin from enemies and fire beams of death and soul renching destruction from their many eyes? jubilant!

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June 23, 2010 2:31:38 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Don't worry about the humor thing. I'm pretty sure it's been said that Elemental will be much more serious in tone than GlaCivII.

Especially since it is profressionnal writers from Random House and not Brad who are making all the various descriptions.

See http://forums.elementalgame.com/377217 and notably the part about

 In conjunction with Stardock’s creative team, the Random House Publishing Group is collaborating on the story and world of the upcoming Stardock PC fantasy strategy game Elemental: War of Magic

 

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June 23, 2010 3:28:07 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Edit: Servers really acting up...

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June 23, 2010 3:29:25 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I kinda wouldn't mind some humour. Games are supposed to be fun after all. I also like that several other people seem to hold my view to an extent.

I guess I don't really know what you want. Would you rather them cram as many traditional races and monsters into the smallest amount of room? Instead of trying something deep and new and passionate and unexpected, you want them basically to do the exact same thing that's been done a million times? You don't want to have the "same thing", but you are essentially asking for the "same thing".

The thing is it doesn't feel deep, new, or passionate. Lord of the rings is awesome because you have the elves fighting orcs, not tallish humans fighting greenish humans. You have balrogs and armies of trees, and thier not just wandering adventure fodder. You have a world thats logical in its politics, geography, and backstory but slammed with totally fantastical (thats a word?) creatures and magic. I don't dislike the overall concept of the lore... I dislike what it looks to do to campaign mode.

It would be equivalent to civ five shipping with a single massive Europe scenario as the single player. In turn, all the art assets, technology, and units have a distinctly european "feel" to them. Now you go to play single player, only to find that you can only choose european factions, and any others you have to custom make, either by using slightly changed European graphics, or by being forced to learn Maya and Python. This is my issue - the lack of breadth in the "lore" will severely gimp the entire game.

I sort of do want them to cram everything they can in. Look at Fall from heaven 2 for Civ4, and look just how creative and vast a sandbox they created, all through fairly extensive lore by the way.

Whats wrong with orcs, kobold, Djinn, beholders, and even unicorn armies? If stardock had a vast array of new and creative races to try then I would applaud them shaking up this status quo. Instead we have humans, and kinda evilish humans.

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June 23, 2010 6:37:52 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Hi Endofdayz,

 Your issue with the lore and the reasoning behind it. Is a bit premature. Your analogy to a European campaign. Doesn't hold water.

 Here's why. Your complaining about the game being built. And disliking what is being built. Because of your perceived references. Elves and Orcs, well what's the difference there? In Tolkien's work Orcs were twisted elves. Tall guys, and green evil smaller guys.

 If you don't like the base lore. In that sense, it's too bad. It's the premise for the game that they are building. And if you don't like it, then you have to either mod it or don't play it, or play it and be miserable. But that's your choice.

 You mentioned Fall from Heaven 2, for Civ 4. That's a mod. It's not the lore of Civ 4. Or that alternate history game. It didn't come with the game. People built it and made it their own. And I would be really surprised if those very same people don't find themselves over here in Elemental: War of Magic after it's released. Because the game will be closer to what they were trying to do.

 So... again, your entitled to your opinion. But complaining about the game not being what you want, because it's base lore will interfere with your preferences comes to a point where it's not valid. Complaining about good guys, and bad guys.. missed quite a bit from what they've put out. And in my version of this game, there will be elves, and dark elves, and dwarves, and vampires, and descendants of vampires, and oh so much more. And whether my mod uses their base lore or not isn't important. Because I can make the game from their tools, that I want to play.

 You should be looking at that versatility. Because the lore, for the base game isn't going to change. The game isn't titled, Generic Fantasy Generator 3. It's titled Elemental: War of Magic. It's got a built in base set of assumptions that is going to be the... hold for it.. base. You can modify the base to suit your needs, and add all the smurfs you want to your game. But complaining because they are using their background lore, for a baseline for the Sandbox game. With you continuously pointing out the same issues, over and over again. With no new well thought out changes, to persuade your audience. Well it's getting a little ragged.  

 

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June 23, 2010 7:01:37 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting endofdayz,
Whats wrong with orcs, kobold, Djinn, beholders, and even unicorn armies?
The question is "What's wrong with trying to do something different?". It's their project. You can show them if you like their product by buying it or not, but design decissions are theirs and that includes Lore. It supposes risks? Yes but it's their choice. They offer and announce "Product A". Those who want "Product B" can go elsewhere or mod "Product A" into "Product B".

"But it's not fantasy if it doesn't have 20,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000+ different non human races!!!!" Suuuuuuuuuuuuuure it's not.

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June 23, 2010 7:06:28 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

The dude was "giving props" to people who got his Drizzt ref. He obviously has a very narrow view of what high fantasy is. 

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June 23, 2010 7:53:46 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

In Tolkien's work Orcs were twisted elves. Tall guys, and green evil smaller guys.

And in Master of Magic, Orcs were pink

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June 23, 2010 8:11:10 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Frogboy,



Quoting endofdayz,
reply 14

The backstory for Elemental is something I've spent the better part of two decades creating.  Random House has certainly been helpful in fleshing it out.  But to accuse me of selling out or whatever is pretty insulting and frankly unwelcome.  If you don't like it, you're free to ignore it. But it has nothing to do with "making a few bucks on the side".


So much as it wasn't meant as a personal attack, it was me being an honest customer voicing my concerns. If you weren't attempting to tie a story into what is in effect a sandbox game, I wouldn't be bothered. If I hadn't already purchased said game while believing it was going to be MoM++ (aka a good, open, sandbox TB fantasy game), I wouldn't be bothered. Instead I am left wondering why so many races typical to this genre are ignored in favor of two nearly identical "factions". And with a world that appears to be more and more limited as I see more of the game. Most of my concerns seem to be answered by the "It can be modded" motto. Thats a dangerous and lazy path for developers to go down.

You needn't be so personally offended either. I can't imagine every dime the book/game makes will go through you, and in turn I can't possibly blame you for whats happened to it. But seeing as I DID purchase the game, I feel I have some right to be openly pessimistic when given reason. I hope so very much that the game WON'T be totally crippled by this whole lore thing, as I could see it being one of the few strategy games that hasn't sold out recently.


You certainly have a right to your opinion. And I have the right to say your opinion is stupid too.

Galactic Civilizations has a great deal of lore behind it too (they're in the same universe, just different times) but I doubt most would agree that the sandbox mode is broken.

The races in GalCiv are all basically identical other than different BINK movies.  In Twilight of the Arnor (made two years later) we finally gave each race its own tech tree.  What makes them feel different is their backstories, their dialog, and their behavior which all comes from the game's lore.

In Elemental, the factions are substantially different. But alas, you're judging the factions based on the beta and then rudely assuming that I just want to make a quick buck.

 

I love Gal Civ 2 but I did not see much lore in it unless your talking about the campaign maps which I only touched on.

Well I only play the Sandlot version of these games. The campaigns tend to be a little dull on the average but if Elemental's campaign is different than most out there then I might try it.

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June 23, 2010 8:40:51 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting endofdayz,
I kinda wouldn't mind some humour. Games are supposed to be fun after all. I also like that several other people seem to hold my view to an extent.

<snip>


Rewrote this later because I thought the forums ahd eaten the post.

 

Sigh...

 

 

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June 23, 2010 8:51:11 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Peace Phoenix,

In Tolkien's work Orcs were twisted elves. Tall guys, and green evil smaller guys.


And in Master of Magic, Orcs were pink
In the D&D cartoons orcs always seemed quite porcine to me so MoM made them closer to their true origins.

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June 23, 2010 8:51:56 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I love great lore but I have to say I'm a bit worried that this game is gonna be too thin on the good stuff. It's looking a lot like Civilization, where your "race" is nothing but a bunch of numbers.

I hope stardock go all in for the Cataclysm angle. I think it's really original and brings me thoughts of like Mad Max and the like. Put some more oomph into showing a destroyed and ruined world and I think this is gonna be awesome. And please don't put it all in the book. It should be plain to see in the game, without the book.

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June 23, 2010 9:01:02 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I will not comment on the story they have made until I can try the campaign. So far it looks promising though.

The lore should be centered around the campaign but still allow some room for sandbox play. And in that regard I see no faults except for some minor things that break immersion but most of those will be removed during the beta process. (the inns all over the place, the bugs that pop up here and there, etc.) Whoever says that story elements are useless and should be scrapped could ponder the fact that almost any game except sports have them.

There are no bad stories, only bad ways of telling them.

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June 23, 2010 9:17:12 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting endofdayz,
I kinda wouldn't mind some humour. Games are supposed to be fun after all. I also like that several other people seem to hold my view to an extent.


<snip>


I sort of do want them to cram everything they can in. Look at Fall from heaven 2 for Civ4, and look just how creative and vast a sandbox they created, all through fairly extensive lore by the way.

Whats wrong with orcs, kobold, Djinn, beholders, and even unicorn armies? If stardock had a vast array of new and creative races to try then I would applaud them shaking up this status quo. Instead we have humans, and kinda evilish humans.

I kinda wouldn't mind this... I really don't like that... This lore thing sucks...

I think the problem here is that you don't seem to actually realize that you're just one person.  Every thing you've had issue with many other people like.  This game isn't being developed for 'you' (the generic you) but it's being developed for a community.  And if I had to guess, I'd bet Brad says it's actually being developed for Brad and the Stardock team first because they want to see just what they're capable of.  

Read any stuff written by successful writers on the craft of writing or if you know one go and ask them who they write for.  They'll tell you that, first and foremost, they write for themselves.  They enjoy the craft and they enjoy discovering their story.  They take pride in seeing just how good they can make it.  Creation of art is done for the artist.  The successful artists are just good enough, or lucky enough, that others enjoy what they create as well.  

We're just here as beta testers to help with the polish and proofreads.  We're spotting things we think are inconsistencies (like hound's original post in this thread) and pointing them out.  

And it blows my mind that you think <insert generic fantasy archetype 1> fighting a big war with <insert generic fantasy archetype 2> over <insert generic fantasy object 7> with <insert generic fantasy superpower 12> to prevent <insert generic fantasy calamity 19> is somehow more epic than what we have here.  Especially.. and this is a big one.. especially considering we don't know the story or even know all of what we have here.  Played around with a lot of that Fallen lore have you?

Having a story and characters you care about trying to do something big is what makes something epic, not the pointy ears or beards tucked into belts.

Seriously, what would have happened if Tolkien's initial proofreaders flipped out and told him to get rid of the nonsense creatures fighting over a stupid ring.  No one cares about Uruk-Hai, elves, and orcs fighting a war.  They're not even real!  How can that be epic when we just had millions of people fight a real war!  Wars aren't fought over rings you dumbass!

Give them time to bring their vision to fruition before you flip out over it. 

And to say they're out for a quick buck or they wouldn't be selling the book is nonsense and makes you sound like a child (I'm not actually calling you a child, don't get defensive).  Why would Brad put hours and hours of time over months, or years, into a creative work and then give it away?  Seriously?  Just don't buy the damn thing if it bothers you.  

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June 23, 2010 11:53:16 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Gorstagg,
See, I knew Brad would offer you a refund immediately if your bent out of shape over this. That's the type of guy he is.

Your comment talking about a 600 page book being given away for free, as opposed to the author.. receiving payment for their hard work. 

You clearly, have absolutely no idea what that entails. Writing a book is not a quick buck. And if someone tells you that. They are lying to you.

And if you've paid any attention to anything about him writing that book. It was an incredibly hard and difficult task that surprised even him. Not simply from the volume of words, but from the content of those words, and their juxtaposition that intrigues a readers mental cortex.

So that's not a quick buck. 

And in so far as your not a 14 year old, but a college aged individual. Then you should more than reasonably be able to suss out the issues that the authors in this post have suggested, and the why.

And the Drizzt reference is a hint of familiarity with D&D. But by that token, you should also recognize artistic effort, and that it should be rewarded. Not just demeaned by referring to it as the American way.

And my reference to the form your own company. If this isn't what your looking for, then as I suggested, make your own company and turn out the next great adventure epic TBS game. I'm not being facetious. Go do it, if they aren't doing it "Right" for you.

And really, you can NOT judge a game by the beta aspects in place. You don't know how much is stripped out in sand box or not. It's not even remotely a viable argument that your presenting this time. Your cogent defense is lacking due to a specious argument you've presented. The Lore is part of the game. If you play MoM it's got it's built in lore. If you play Civilization 1-4, it's also go it's own lore aggregate assumptions.

The lore in the books will come along, and for those of us who find it ruins the immersion, we'll look for mod's to fix it. But complaining about the base quality of the coffee, and being unhappy that the beans are grown in Columbia, as opposed to Africa. Doesn't stand the test. All games will have a certain level of built in game lore. All of them. The only exception to that is a system that is specifically designed from the get go to be setting/period/etc neutral. I reference GURPS.

This isn't GURPS. This is Elemental: War of Magic. And we'll be able to make our own factions, and there will be mods that go above and beyond, that add in new race models, and what not. And they can mod the game heavily enough to probably even strip out the Lore you deplore. But that's because they're giving the community the tools to do that up front. And also follow it up later with additional support.

I'm looking forward to this game, a lot. And will "Mod" my own game world into it at some point. But that's because of what I want. And that doesn't require them to try to change something unnecessarily to suit my whim or need. They'll do that when I find a game play issue. But Lore is not a game play issue.

 

Make mountains out of mold hills much?  You people are blowing this all out of wack. The guy never said that the book should not be sold. All he is saying is that the Lore should not affect the game as much in Sandbox mode which I agree with. Now from what has been said it looks like the lore will be only in the Campaign which is good and the Sandbox is open for us to create our own world.

There was no need for people getting offended because the comments were not in and of themselves offensive unless you’re too sensitive about things which in this day and age seems to be the norm unfortunately.

So everyone calm down …breath  allow the force to flow through you.  Think of your happy place then move on. The game seems to be coming along fine and the Campaign will be Lore filled while the Sandbox game will allow us to create are own world. So everything is now right with the world. 

Make mountains out of mold hills much?  You people are blowing this all out of wack. The guy never said that the book should not be sold. All he is saying is that the Lore should not affect the game as much in Sandbox mode which I agree with. Now from what has been said it looks like the lore will be only in the Campaign which is good and the Sandbox is open for us to create our own world.

There was no need for people getting offended because the comments were not in and of themselves offensive unless you’re too sensitive about things which in this day and age seems to be the norm unfortunately.

So everyone calm down …breath  allow the force to flow through you.  Think of your happy place then move on. The game seems to be coming along fine and the Campaign will be Lore filled while the Sandbox game will allow us to create are own world. So everything is now right with the world.

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June 23, 2010 12:13:50 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Bellack,
 

Make mountains out of mold hills much?  You people are blowing this all out of wack. The guy never said that the book should not be sold. All he is saying is that the Lore should not affect the game as much in Sandbox mode which I agree with. Now from what has been said it looks like the lore will be only in the Campaign which is good and the Sandbox is open for us to create our own world.

There was no need for people getting offended because the comments were not in and of themselves offensive unless you’re too sensitive about things which in this day and age seems to be the norm unfortunately.

So everyone calm down …breath  allow the force to flow through you.  Think of your happy place then move on. The game seems to be coming along fine and the Campaign will be Lore filled while the Sandbox game will allow us to create are own world. So everything is now right with the world. 

Not sure why your post double posted within itself but neither here nor there.

Mountains out of Mole hills. In a sense, that's what it felt like with his initial comments. But I'm not going to need to paraphrase 3 pages of issues. The issue with the book was his insinuation that it was a "Method to make a Quick Buck". Which was his perspective on it. And many others don't hold that view, and find it a faulty presentation.

He is entirely free to enjoy or not enjoy the lore of the game. But while the campaign will have full lore going on. The sandbox may still contains references to it. That's his concern, as he's expressed. Either way, the point is that if there is lore in the sandbox even in a rudimentary fashion, it's going to remain. The exception is if someone makes a mod, removing it and making it more generic with a broader range of options and what not.

I disagree with your comment about the offensive nature of the tone or implied intent. Because some people clearly saw it that way. Now that said, even though I do disagree with him no many of his points. He has avoided turning this into a full on trolling session. It's his opinion on a subject, and while his opinion may not strike true in most intents, and with a few exceptions like the ridiculous insinuation of "a Quick Buck", and the subsequent references to it. He's been nonetheless relatively polite. And for that I have to make sure I express my respect for him. He's arguing a point that he's passionate about. He may of really offended the owner of the company. But it came across more as ignorance, not willful but functional. Where as I also felt that Brad as always expressed a level of restraint that is incredible, while also showing he's human as well. Someone insulted him and his motives, even if they were ignorant of the fact. And he expressed his opinion, fairly and pointed, and even offered the guy a full refund immediately if it bothered him so much. Who else goes that far to make sure that a customer can get his money back, when they express their opinions about it.

Your point about the sandbox and being able to create our own worlds, is important because remember, if it's still not exactly what you seek. Then there will be the ability to "Mod" the game. And then, someone will absolutely be able to make something that will really make him die with enjoyment overload. And for all we know it will be Stardock's own work. With providing us a ton of tools to make the game as awesome as it truly will be.

 

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June 23, 2010 12:41:02 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting MagicwillNZ,



Quoting Bellack,
reply 45

I agree with you. The 'lore' should be in the initial discreiption of the map/campaign and that is it. I really hope in Sandbox mode we are not always on a dying world trying to make it furtal blah blah blah.. I hope to create many different maps with thier own story. Not that the main campaign story is not interesting it's just I don't want every Elemental game I play be the same thing.


I guess I don't really know what you want. Would you rather them cram as many traditional races and monsters into the smallest amount of room? Instead of trying something deep and new and passionate and unexpected, you want them basically to do the exact same thing that's been done a million times? You don't want to have the "same thing", but you are essentially asking for the "same thing".

I basically despise that approach. No game that goes for "generic" is ever truly great. It just feels uninspired. I think it's unfair to say that lore means predictable gameplay. Usually, it's the precise opposite. I'm glad that Elemental has taken the approach of making quality scenarios and factions rather than merely a great volume of shallow content.

Honestly, good lore grows with good gameplay. The whole essence mechanic is something really useful that's been directly inspired by the lore. I wasn't at the brainstorming sessions at Stardock, but I feel if they were aiming for an MoM clone they would have never developed this mechanic.

Another example is STALKER. STALKER's lore basically dictated gameplay, and they came up with something new and fresh.

I feel like what you guys want is a bland sandwich. Sure, it'll fill your stomach, but wouldn't you want a little flavor?


dying world trying to make it furtal blah blah blah..


You make this sound like it's been done a million times. What would you have in place of this that's more interesting? I'm not convinced that the anti-lore people have better ideas.

 

Well I would perfer more races and yes I also like the Traditional races of Fantasy. A fantasy world with only one race is not very appealing IMO even if they are all fleshed out. Now as long as I can add more races to the existing one then it won't be too bad. 

As far as the 'flavor' goes we do want a lot of flavor which the 'generic' fantasy can give us and has always given us (and no I don't see these as 'bland.' One race is not very flavorfull but many races are.  I am for brand new races and such but I also want the traditional races in as well. The more the better.  But since we can add races to the game then this is no longer a big issue.

I will probably play the campign once then move onto moding my own maps and races in the game while still keeping the race that the game came with. 

And what I mean by this statement 'dying world trying to make it furtal blah blah blah..' is that I don't want all the custom games to have to follow the same general story as the campaign hence all taking place on a dying world etc.

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June 23, 2010 3:04:43 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I'd honestly love to see Elves and Dwarves and Orcs and such, I'm not yet sick of classic Tolkienesque fantasy and probably never will be, so I'd like Elemental even more if included more "generic" sandbox fantasy. But this is Brad/Stardock's game, they're free to create their own unique lore even if you don't like it (personally I'm reserving judgement - we haven't even seen the Empires yet, this game should have two very distinct factions in the end, and that will improve it I think).

But like it or not, you really can't complain about the game's lore when they're also offering some amazing customization/modding capabilities just for people like you. You don't have to mod! You don't have to touch a line of xml, you don't even need to create a custom faction with the game's interface - because other people will be doing that for you, and Stardock is providing unprecedented online support for sharing of mods. If you want generic Elves and Orcs and such (I get it, I do too!) all you have to do is wait for someone else to make it for you. Remember Civ4 didn't ship with fantasy elements, and look what the Fall From Heaven modders were able to create - in time Elemental will have the same, except it'll probably happen faster and be better in the end than Civ4's FfH, if the modding tools are even half as good as we've been told.

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June 23, 2010 4:44:53 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I'm not gonna complain about the lore, as long as it doesn't get in the way and isn't required to play. If it's good, I might even get the book. But yeah,I just want a fantasy world. And if a well-done mod adds elves and orcs, I'll play it for sure.

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June 23, 2010 6:38:00 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

It would be equivalent to civ five shipping with a single massive Europe scenario as the single player. In turn, all the art assets, technology, and units have a distinctly european "feel" to them. Now you go to play single player, only to find that you can only choose european factions, and any others you have to custom make, either by using slightly changed European graphics, or by being forced to learn Maya and Python. This is my issue - the lack of breadth in the "lore" will severely gimp the entire game.

I sort of do want them to cram everything they can in. Look at Fall from heaven 2 for Civ4, and look just how creative and vast a sandbox they created, all through fairly extensive lore by the way.

Whats wrong with orcs, kobold, Djinn, beholders, and even unicorn armies? If stardock had a vast array of new and creative races to try then I would applaud them shaking up this status quo. Instead we have humans, and kinda evilish humans.

Well, this makes a little more sense. So really, you aren't really worried about lore ruining the gameplay. You just don't like the lore. As long as we get this straight it's really just a matter of opinion. The idea that "homebrew" settings makes gameplay worse is a little odd, if not absurd.

I may have a misconception about FfH2. I have never played it, but from what it seems to me, it didn't seem like a "traditional fantasy world" to me. It seemed like a lore-heavy empire builder pretty much like Elemental. The closest thing I can think of to what you want that I have played is Dominions 3, which draws more from classical and religious mythology than fantasy. Even there, Dominions attempts to have a general narrative and lore.

If you want orcs, elves, unicorns, kobolds and such, I can't argue with you. It just gets frustrating when these races are recycled in pretty much the same way in virtually every game, to the point where I consider these races to be a crutch in place of meaningful world development. I like fantasy worlds with a concrete background and with only a handful of non-human races. As I mentioned in threads, I liked Warcraft: Orcs and Humans just when there were only Orcs and Humans. And when people do try something new they often get shot down by people who want the same thing.

And what I mean by this statement 'dying world trying to make it furtal blah blah blah..' is that I don't want all the custom games to have to follow the same general story as the campaign hence all taking place on a dying world etc.

I still don't get you. Are you afraid every sandbox game is going to play out exactly the same way as the campaign? I find that idea odd.

 

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June 23, 2010 7:22:48 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

A fantasy world with only one race is not very appealing IMO even if they are all fleshed out. Now as long as I can add more races to the existing one then it won't be too bad.

Don't tell that to George R. R. Martin, author of the one of the most highly rated and most popular fantasy series of recent years (his HBO series is about to start). In that series, there are only humans factions. The world has dragons and magic aplenty too.

The Fallen, incidentally, are not men in the same sense that Orcs aren't men and that the elves aren't men in Tolkien.

An elf is a human with long ears and some lore. Visually, they're almost identical. Orcs are humans with different faces and a different complexion. Hobbits are short men. Dwarves are short, robust men. 

The Fallen races of Elemental include the Trogs, Urxen, Wraith and Quendar. Each different both visually and in what they do.  Trogs (the only Fallen race players can remotely access) are big, gray brutes.  Urxen are hairy, nasty, smaller creatures. Quendar are tall, formidable beings and the Wraiths are skinny with a sickly blue shade to them.

Even in Tolkien's world his races weren't called Hobbits or Elves or Dwarves. Those were the names lay people gave them. A Noldor would take great umbridge with being confused with Avari. But Men would just label them as "elves" (they all look the same anyway right?).  

The lore of Elemental is important to the campaign. In sandbox mode, people can pretty much do whatever they want. You want to have Orcs? Knock yourself out and put Orcs in there.  

Personally, I think a lot of people will like the general concept behind the lore of Elemental - the Kingdoms of men (the "good" guys) fighting the "fantasy races" of "The Fallen" (the "bad guys").

 

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June 23, 2010 7:32:51 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Magnars are called Quendar now? Cool.

I welcome any setting without elves and dwarves with open arms. The Diablo universe actually has a really cool setting with only men and demons in it. But the most important thing of course is quality writing, pointy ears or not.

In EWoM, could the kingdoms of Men be more culturally diverse by any chance?  

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