Lore inconsistencies

By on June 21, 2010 10:51:42 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Hound

Join Date 03/2008
+10
The world was broken.

Now…

Civilization is gone. Life hangs by a thread.

The only hope for Elemental is you.
The backstory was quite the inspiring read.
But then the game starts a century later and...
General Carrodus' background states he made his way to the City of Ruvenna. So there is civilization after all?
The Kingdoms still exist, have they rebuilt already in a century?
Only the campaign supports the lore and other games should be considered separate?
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June 21, 2010 2:29:28 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Actually its that their's already some struggling settlements in the background stories. But their only alive because of the limited patches of still living fertile ground...Whereas 98% or more of the terrain is barren and has to be healed by a channeler thus preventing civilization from truly returning.

 

Hope that clarifies.

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June 21, 2010 5:02:46 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Ignore the lore - its just their attempt to make a few quick bucks on the side by doing what halo and warhammer have.

I personally wish there was no "backstory", considering how this is supposed to be a sandbox empire builder... but I guess all companies have thier price.

Still have to sigh when I see certain descriptions delayed in the beta because "they are waiting for random house to send them over". Not a good sign.

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June 21, 2010 5:07:12 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Are there any non-cynics that would like to post here?

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June 21, 2010 7:09:33 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I wish they had gone for the Sins of a Solar Empire approach with the lore. Having some cool lore but not too much. Creating interesting factions without going too deep into Kingdoms and Empires because it is already getting quite confusing. And sadly these Capitar and Pariden etc. aren't especially interesting because they are too similar. The kingdoms should at least be divided geographically into Anglo-Saxon, Northmen, Saracens etc. so that they would have different culture, units and visuals.

The biggest flaw in my humble opinion is first stating that "civilization is gone, the only hope is you" and then having detailed information on five Kingdoms that apparently are not gone at all. It feels like the Cataclysm never happened.

If the premise truly is that civilization is gone, the role of the player should be to rise as a new leader of Men or Fallen and reshape the world. Who wants to rebuild Tarth when we never knew what it was like in the first place? We have, or should have, the perfect clean slate to create a kingdom of our own.

I think there should be 3 distinct races of Men and 3 distinct races of Fallen, the story about the Cataclysm and a clean slate for all.

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June 21, 2010 11:10:30 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Alright, before I get flamed, I've been assuming so far that all the backstory we see is created for the single player campaign, were these civs will start small but end up BEING what there descriptions are.

 

I dont know, i'm a newcomer and could be wrong.

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June 21, 2010 11:37:41 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting endofdayz,
Ignore the lore - its just their attempt to make a few quick bucks on the side by doing what halo and warhammer have.

I personally wish there was no "backstory", considering how this is supposed to be a sandbox empire builder... but I guess all companies have thier price.

Still have to sigh when I see certain descriptions delayed in the beta because "they are waiting for random house to send them over". Not a good sign.

 

The backstory for Elemental is something I've spent the better part of two decades creating.  Random House has certainly been helpful in fleshing it out.  But to accuse me of selling out or whatever is pretty insulting and frankly unwelcome.  If you don't like it, you're free to ignore it. But it has nothing to do with "making a few bucks on the side".

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June 22, 2010 12:04:05 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Frogboy,

Quoting endofdayz, reply 2Ignore the lore - its just their attempt to make a few quick bucks on the side by doing what halo and warhammer have.

I personally wish there was no "backstory", considering how this is supposed to be a sandbox empire builder... but I guess all companies have thier price.

Still have to sigh when I see certain descriptions delayed in the beta because "they are waiting for random house to send them over". Not a good sign.

 

The backstory for Elemental is something I've spent the better part of two decades creating.  Random House has certainly been helpful in fleshing it out.  But to accuse me of selling out or whatever is pretty insulting and frankly unwelcome.  If you don't like it, you're free to ignore it. But it has nothing to do with "making a few bucks on the side".

 

Hey Brad, don't let them get to you. They are clearly wrong, and have not paid any attention to what's been put out there by you over the last few years.

You've mentioned at some point even back in Gal Civ 2 days, about your fantasy world or some such. So Random House fleshing out tons of NPC's and giving them some extra hooks is you going an extra mile to help immerse us in your gaming world.

I really appreciate that you and Random House did that. Of the NPC's I've come across they've got realistic stories, and their motivations come across that way as well.

Myself, I've been working on my own D&D game world for the last fifteen years myself. So I can truly appreciate your dedication to this. And folks just simply have no idea what we've put into them, until they finally get to see it.

So, sorry that some completely uniformed individual implied otherwise. But there are quite a few of us out there.. that do know what you've done for us, and the game that frankly is getting made because of your love of gaming. (And AI.. we know your existence is being driven by writing AI.. so hehe.. AI driving you to make better games, and is as The Lord of the Rings drove the lore of Tolkien's fantasy so he could showcase his new languages. Interconnected they are, the precious.)

 

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June 22, 2010 12:09:41 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Who wants to rebuild Tarth when we never knew what it was like in the first place? We have, or should have, the perfect clean slate to create a kingdom of our own.

people would carry the culture of Tarth on after the kingdom fell apart and would rebuild a New Tarth though different still Tarth

Ignore the lore - its just their attempt to make a few quick bucks on the side by doing what halo and warhammer have.

Need a good story for an epic game, rather sad that Sins had no campaign. the thing that gave halo the feeling of greatness was the EPIC Campaign if they didn't have that the game wouldn't have had a grand feeling about finishing the game on the hardest setting.

Lore is needed for this game since its part Role Playing which does add the much need for lore.

But to accuse me of selling out or whatever is pretty insulting and frankly unwelcome.

Seems people like to put gameplay first over a good story these days, but only century later does seem a bit to fast even with magic i would think 3 centuries would be better fitted unless you want tell us more, just the pace of the beta atm makes it feel like the cataclysm had not much of an impact on the world since you can make it grow green fast.

wouldn't be so hard to rebuild in under a century an easy an example would be of how fast Europe rebuilt after world war 2, but since it would be a medieval setting with fantasy not many people would live over the age over 50, but post Apocalypse would be hard to recover in under 1 century.

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June 22, 2010 1:43:06 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting endofdayz,
Ignore the lore - its just their attempt to make a few quick bucks on the side by doing what halo and warhammer have.

I personally wish there was no "backstory", considering how this is supposed to be a sandbox empire builder... but I guess all companies have thier price.

Still have to sigh when I see certain descriptions delayed in the beta because "they are waiting for random house to send them over". Not a good sign.

i kind of agree. But not with the $$ part.

This games main selling point is sandbox maps or modding.

I dont really see an interesting story being told or lore that drags me in  being done in this game, despite what devs have thought up. Unless the single player campaign is something i havent seen before in giant sandbox turn based games.

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June 22, 2010 1:53:06 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Frogboy,

Quoting endofdayz, reply 2Ignore the lore - its just their attempt to make a few quick bucks on the side by doing what halo and warhammer have.

I personally wish there was no "backstory", considering how this is supposed to be a sandbox empire builder... but I guess all companies have thier price.

Still have to sigh when I see certain descriptions delayed in the beta because "they are waiting for random house to send them over". Not a good sign.

 

The backstory for Elemental is something I've spent the better part of two decades creating.  Random House has certainly been helpful in fleshing it out.  But to accuse me of selling out or whatever is pretty insulting and frankly unwelcome.  If you don't like it, you're free to ignore it. But it has nothing to do with "making a few bucks on the side".

Damn, burned. It's your company Frogboy, it must be awesome to see your cool fantasies brought to life in a big-budget way. I hope (and am confident) that you'll make it just as fun for the rest of us to see, too. 

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June 22, 2010 2:34:38 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting endofdayz,
Ignore the lore - its just their attempt to make a few quick bucks on the side by doing what halo and warhammer have.

I personally wish there was no "backstory", considering how this is supposed to be a sandbox empire builder... but I guess all companies have thier price.

Still have to sigh when I see certain descriptions delayed in the beta because "they are waiting for random house to send them over". Not a good sign.
Ignorance-O-Meter totally out of scale!!

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June 22, 2010 2:56:32 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Still have to sigh when I see certain descriptions delayed in the beta because "they are waiting for random house to send them over". Not a good sign.

i think theys only would be to do with text for tech and other names for objects as well as buildings and many more things to do with text i would think that they wouldn't wait to add something if they are just waiting on lore things.

I'm sure the only thing that can cure this lore hate is to see & play the Campaign, with out the lore it would almost be playing Dungeons & Dragon with out a campaign to do which would give little motive for you to play it then, but most people that play d&d use their imagination to picture the world that they are playing through with friends,But elemental has a nice graphics behind it and gameplay so their might seem no need for an epic story behind it.

It would be pointless playing a game that has some role playing behind it with out lore or a Campaign. i do look forward to spending 30 hours on the Campaign but you would have to make it standout it would need things that wouldn't be in a normal random map such as in the Campaign Works differently in how you do quests and other areas, only saying that because playing the game so far it seems that to be motivated to play the Campaign it would have to work differently but i'll see how the campaign is when the game comes out few weeks after my birthday though Friday the 13th might ruin me in some way ....

Anyway i do love only to read fantasy books don't read any others, i will read your book Brad though for your sake better not have a sad ending like bitterbynde trilogy, though she did put the real ending on the web and it was kinda happy but still not completely good for everyone in it, but i know if i end up not liking it aka something bad happens to a good main character at some point reading it i probly won't finishing it

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June 22, 2010 2:57:43 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Tch.... Nothing pisses me off more then seeing someone scoff at the creative labors of others...

It's the behavior of an artless, tactless, unimaginative, fool. Quite frankly its beneath anyone on these forums, or SHOULD be.

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June 22, 2010 3:55:12 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

The backstory for Elemental is something I've spent the better part of two decades creating.  Random House has certainly been helpful in fleshing it out.  But to accuse me of selling out or whatever is pretty insulting and frankly unwelcome.  If you don't like it, you're free to ignore it. But it has nothing to do with "making a few bucks on the side".

 

So much as it wasn't meant as a personal attack, it was me being an honest customer voicing my concerns. If you weren't attempting to tie a story into what is in effect a sandbox game, I wouldn't be bothered. If I hadn't already purchased said game while believing it was going to be MoM++ (aka a good, open, sandbox TB fantasy game), I wouldn't be bothered. Instead I am left wondering why so many races typical to this genre are ignored in favor of two nearly identical "factions". And with a world that appears to be more and more limited as I see more of the game. Most of my concerns seem to be answered by the "It can be modded" motto. Thats a dangerous and lazy path for developers to go down.

You needn't be so personally offended either. I can't imagine every dime the book/game makes will go through you, and in turn I can't possibly blame you for whats happened to it. But seeing as I DID purchase the game, I feel I have some right to be openly pessimistic when given reason. I hope so very much that the game WON'T be totally crippled by this whole lore thing, as I could see it being one of the few strategy games that hasn't sold out recently.

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June 22, 2010 4:34:34 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting endofdayz,

The backstory for Elemental is something I've spent the better part of two decades creating.  Random House has certainly been helpful in fleshing it out.  But to accuse me of selling out or whatever is pretty insulting and frankly unwelcome.  If you don't like it, you're free to ignore it. But it has nothing to do with "making a few bucks on the side".

 

So much as it wasn't meant as a personal attack, it was me being an honest customer voicing my concerns. If you weren't attempting to tie a story into what is in effect a sandbox game, I wouldn't be bothered. If I hadn't already purchased said game while believing it was going to be MoM++ (aka a good, open, sandbox TB fantasy game), I wouldn't be bothered. Instead I am left wondering why so many races typical to this genre are ignored in favor of two nearly identical "factions". And with a world that appears to be more and more limited as I see more of the game. Most of my concerns seem to be answered by the "It can be modded" motto. Thats a dangerous and lazy path for developers to go down.

You needn't be so personally offended either. I can't imagine every dime the book/game makes will go through you, and in turn I can't possibly blame you for whats happened to it. But seeing as I DID purchase the game, I feel I have some right to be openly pessimistic when given reason. I hope so very much that the game WON'T be totally crippled by this whole lore thing, as I could see it being one of the few strategy games that hasn't sold out recently.

I know "Lore" is something that personally upsets you. As a result, I have created this guide to help you enjoy games "Lore Free."

  1. Go into your closet.
  2. Look for the "Risk" tm logo.
  3. If you find it, skip to step #6
  4. Order Risk from ebay.
  5. Wait two weeks.
  6. Put the game on your table.
  7. Look for the pieces that are supposed to represent individual units. Remove the horsemen, the cavalary and the canons if present. Replace them with small sqaures of coloured cardboard.
  8. Take the board that represents the world. Tape some paper sheets on it until it covers everything.
  9. Get a ruler. Trace out a large square grid in the board, leaving two inches of white space along the outside rim.
  10. Find the cards that represent territoties in the game. Use a marker to black out the names. Give them a new, random name composed of meaningless letters.
  11. By now, your game should have all "Lore" removed to it and should in no way resemble the real world at any point in history. It is a "Pure" strategy game with zero historical lore and zero real world references. All units are squares, the things you are trying to "take" by getting your colour of square on them are squares, and the cards you get for taking them have no meaning whatsoever.

You may apply this guide to "monopoly" to create a sandbox monopoly empire game if you like. You may have some trouble with Clue: I suggest allowing the idea of having verbs and adjectives. "Known Constant X was Something Oned with the Thing Three in the Place 7," can be a winning statement to help reduce this to the basic elements.

At your leisure, you may add in sprinkles of random fantasy elements if you desire. This is more difficult. I suggest getting copies of Twilight, anything by R.A. Salvatore or Ed Greenwood, and cutting the books into small one-inch squares and gluing them at random to the board. You should get adequate jumbles of "Dragon," "Elf," and "Sparkly" occuring in a meaningless, "Lore Free" fashion. At no point will you have to worry about a cohesive, original story emerging.

 

 

Thank you, that'll be +1 Karma.

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June 22, 2010 4:45:51 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

might have read that they are allow other races besides the two at this point around the date it comes out, or maybe a template at least to make our own races, but so far the most (or lots) of the money has gone into modding tools or at least plenty to get great tools Brad said that one of the spells was made in one of it editors. Races don't matter that much to me but the ability to make our own factions means alot more to me at this point. its not that big a deal since it seems this game will probly have the biggest modding player base around for ages if all goes well.

I'm sure your not the only person annoyed at there being only 2 races at this time but like i said i am sure i read some where they are going to have other custom races like Elves & dwarfs but i don't think we will see them till around release might have been brad himself that said that but i forget which journal entry.

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June 22, 2010 4:59:31 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting endofdayz,

The backstory for Elemental is something I've spent the better part of two decades creating.  Random House has certainly been helpful in fleshing it out.  But to accuse me of selling out or whatever is pretty insulting and frankly unwelcome.  If you don't like it, you're free to ignore it. But it has nothing to do with "making a few bucks on the side".


 

So much as it wasn't meant as a personal attack, it was me being an honest customer voicing my concerns. If you weren't attempting to tie a story into what is in effect a sandbox game, I wouldn't be bothered. If I hadn't already purchased said game while believing it was going to be MoM++ (aka a good, open, sandbox TB fantasy game), I wouldn't be bothered. Instead I am left wondering why so many races typical to this genre are ignored in favor of two nearly identical "factions". And with a world that appears to be more and more limited as I see more of the game. Most of my concerns seem to be answered by the "It can be modded" motto. Thats a dangerous and lazy path for developers to go down.

You needn't be so personally offended either. I can't imagine every dime the book/game makes will go through you, and in turn I can't possibly blame you for whats happened to it. But seeing as I DID purchase the game, I feel I have some right to be openly pessimistic when given reason. I hope so very much that the game WON'T be totally crippled by this whole lore thing, as I could see it being one of the few strategy games that hasn't sold out recently.

 

But you can see how that it "Could" come across as a personal attack though right? Because you are accusing the architect of his personal project, that he's out to make a few bucks on the side. That is not directed to the world, as a point of valid brain storming. That was in essence directed to Brad. Which based upon your answers, would honestly seem to indicate a sense of complete ignorance on this subject of the person and the game in general. (And that's not required to function in life or play a game. But knowing about what your speaking is useful when trying to avoid putting ones proverbial foot in mouth.)

Your concerns about having to worry about "Lore" intermingling with your "Sandbox" game, is something you are personally going to have to assess. Every game comes with it's own internal background lore. And you don't have to like it. That's your option. As far as what it's going to do in the Sandbox. Well if your playing the basic game, the simple predication will be unless you add mod's that achieve a style your going for. You will be presented with the game world and lore of Elemental: War of Magic, as it exists when it goes live and out on retail.

If you don't like that, you are free to mod the game yourself, or with others. Or make your own game. 

See Brad is Making HIS own game. This is HIS company. These are HIS pet projects, that in turn he gets to share with, a massive audience. Your concern about modded and lazy paths. Is purely an opinion, and you're free to express that, irregardless of those who respond. But your speaking from a definitive perspective, stating as fact that this is a dangerous or lazy and now you've insulted them by a passive aggressive proxy statement and strawman argument. Your melodrama is the source of friction. And if he felt offended, because you in a short paragraph insulted him, and his works, which you clearly know little to nothing about. His feelings are valid because he is the whole shebang on this. (Meaning the work he's put into this over the last 2 decades. Which in turn sounds like his own personal D&D game world. But he's putting it into a grander scale, and we can choose to partake of that at our choice, ala the campaign.)

Your response in the second paragraph, leaves a lot to be desired. Because you may not be clear, the way it reads is an insult, compounded by ignorance, and turning a bit trollish. Followed by your comments about purchasing a game and being openly critical. That last part is truly okay but not about purchasing the game. Being critical isn't an issue. It's your use of the tone of being critical that causes the friction. Because your approach is couched in doom and malfeasance if they don't build the game to your specifications and demands (Which again, if you want to fund your own development house, and dictate what is made and isn't, feel free to do so just like Brad.). 

In truth EndofDayz you may not have realized your approach was insulting. But it was, irregardless of whether you can fully comprehend it and why. Because Brad... he's not a Soccer playing who has someone run past him lightly brush him, and have him throw himself to the ground, writhing in imaginary pain. If he stated his feelings here, he was aggrieved. 

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June 22, 2010 5:45:44 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Honestly, I don't understand the hate for the lore. If you want a game which is a completely blank state lore-wise then play Spore.

Personally, as a roleplayer, I'd rather have some deep lore so that I can actually feel immersed in a game and I actually feel that even a small amount of background lore can make one hell of a difference. For example, Sword of the Stars happens to be be one of my favourite 4x games because when I booted the game up, well I was expecting your usual variety of generic and shallow Aliens but instead I got five or six different and fairly original Aliens each with completely in-depth backgrounds that stretched on for pages and covering even the most superfluous of details (i.e. whether the races can eat each others foods or not...) and personally, I -loved- that. You could easily have completely ignored their individual backgrounds but doing that would be doing yourself a disservice because of how well written and interesting they were.

And I feel the same way about Elemental; when I first heard about the game I was expecting your usual, high-magic generic fantasy world (ugh) with a handful of generic fantasy races but instead Elemental is fairly unique and I look forward to learning more (much more!) about the world and its characters.

But anyway, I doubt the lore will be featured in the sandbox mode (especially since you can create your own races) so if you're really not interested in the lore then you can completely ignore it, but you'll probably be missing out.

 

- Also; the whole 'sell-out' thing and the 'do it MY way or you will FAIL!' argument seems like something a spoiled 12 year old with a disturbing sense of entitlement would write, to be perfectly honest with you. If you don't like the lore, thats fine - but to utterly dismiss the lore and any work that has been put into it, insult the creator and then imply that not catering to your specific needs = doomed to failure is childish and more than a little ridiculous. And so what if you've paid for the game? Good for you. It doesn't make your specific opinion more valid than anybody elses, especially since you're not the only on this forum that has paid for it.

 

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June 22, 2010 8:37:54 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Thiryn,
Honestly, I don't understand the hate for the lore. If you want a game which is a completely blank state lore-wise then play Spore.

Was that directed at me? I said I found the lore inspiring. Save for the race of Men who are a little bland compared to the different races of the Fallen. My opinion is that the race of Men should be more diverse culturally and visually.

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June 22, 2010 9:08:16 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Hound,

Quoting Thiryn, reply 18Honestly, I don't understand the hate for the lore. If you want a game which is a completely blank state lore-wise then play Spore.
Was that directed at me? I said I found the lore inspiring. Save for the race of Men who are a little bland compared to the different races of the Fallen. My opinion is that the race of Men should be more diverse culturally and visually.

Nope, its aimed at those that don't want any lore at all.

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June 22, 2010 11:19:33 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Gorstagg,



But you can see how that it "Could" come across as a personal attack though right? Because you are accusing the architect of his personal project, that he's out to make a few bucks on the side. That is not directed to the world, as a point of valid brain storming. That was in essence directed to Brad. Which based upon your answers, would honestly seem to indicate a sense of complete ignorance on this subject of the person and the game in general. (And that's not required to function in life or play a game. But knowing about what your speaking is useful when trying to avoid putting ones proverbial foot in mouth.)

He is SELLING the book. To say he wants to make a few bucks on the side is the truth, he could easily just paste the lore onto an elemental wiki for free. Seeing as its being sold, what I said was true.

Quoting Gorstagg,

Your concerns about having to worry about "Lore" intermingling with your "Sandbox" game, is something you are personally going to have to assess. Every game comes with it's own internal background lore. And you don't have to like it. That's your option. As far as what it's going to do in the Sandbox. Well if your playing the basic game, the simple predication will be unless you add mod's that achieve a style your going for. You will be presented with the game world and lore of Elemental: War of Magic, as it exists when it goes live and out on retail.

This is my key problem: I bought it not realizing that I was, as you say in a few sentences, some guys "pet project". I thought it was a game with its customers interest at heart, and in turn assumed the gameplay wouldn't be sidelined by an excess of backstory: I play strategy game because I can make my own world, not so I can be allowed to meander through someone elses

Quoting Gorstagg,

If you don't like that, you are free to mod the game yourself, or with others. Or make your own game. 

When I said this attitude was dangerous and lazy, I didn't mean the devs are the only ones being lazy. As a customer you have the right to buy a product that functions as described without modification from day 1. Patches, and the concept that developers can release a broken product and fix it later developed out of this type of attitude. As a player I shouldn't have to do anything else to get what I paid for (note: I don't expect them to turn this into MY personal fantasy world - im okay with modding that. I dislike it coming packed as someone elses.). Having actually dabbled in programming I HAVE made my own (shoddy) games. They were fun for me and free and just dandy. I paid for this product, and in turn feel I can vent my worries (which is all these really are: The game is barely even in beta) without being turned away for a differing opinion.

Quoting Gorstagg,

See Brad is Making HIS own game. This is HIS company. These are HIS pet projects, that in turn he gets to share with, a massive audience. Your concern about modded and lazy paths. Is purely an opinion, and you're free to express that, irregardless of those who respond. But your speaking from a definitive perspective, stating as fact that this is a dangerous or lazy and now you've insulted them by a passive aggressive proxy statement and strawman argument. Your melodrama is the source of friction. And if he felt offended, because you in a short paragraph insulted him, and his works, which you clearly know little to nothing about. His feelings are valid because he is the whole shebang on this. (Meaning the work he's put into this over the last 2 decades. Which in turn sounds like his own personal D&D game world. But he's putting it into a grander scale, and we can choose to partake of that at our choice, ala the campaign.)

This is all fine, and shows that you are actually a capable and reasonable person. Let me just point out the crux of my issue

Quoting Gorstagg,
But he's putting it into a grander scale, and we can choose to partake of that at our choice, ala the campaign
< that. Is it ONLY the campaign, which I would definitely give a shot to if it was fun, OR is the entire sandbox mode tainted by the lore. My issue is that I am afraid that I am simply going to be replaying the same fantasy world time and again on different maps, which will rapidly get old, getting less replay out of me and devaluing the investment I made in the game.

BTW - I made several DnD worlds for my friends and I to play. When they didn't like something about it, I adapted it in future works to make it better. Art from adversity. I didn't pout angrily, I simply tried harder. The result was positive for everyone, despite being disappointing in the short term.

Quoting Gorstagg,

Your response in the second paragraph, leaves a lot to be desired. Because you may not be clear, the way it reads is an insult, compounded by ignorance, and turning a bit trollish. Followed by your comments about purchasing a game and being openly critical. That last part is truly okay but not about purchasing the game. Being critical isn't an issue. It's your use of the tone of being critical that causes the friction.

I am not a fourteen year old using moms credit card to buy the game. I am a college kid, and believe it or not the game was a sizable investment for me in terms of disposable income, hence why I keep pointing out how I feel I have the right to criticize. They probably don't care about a single customer, which in turn is why I am attempting to bring the issue to light. Criticism could have saved alot of failed triple A titles in the past, even if someones feelings got hurt along the way

Quoting Gorstagg,

Because your approach is couched in doom and malfeasance if they don't build the game to your specifications and demands

I like the current game engine, hence why I want a quality game attached to it. I don't want anything in particular, but I was led to believe this was going to be an epic TBS strat game, which usually don't rely entirely on one storyline to make or break the product. Maybe my approach is harsh: most reviewers will be worse, should the game warrent it. And alot more public.

Quoting Gorstagg,

(Which again, if you want to fund your own development house, and dictate what is made and isn't, feel free to do so just like Brad.).

I kinda wanted to just buy a game... I guess that was wrong of me.

Quoting Gorstagg,

In truth EndofDayz you may not have realized your approach was insulting. But it was, irregardless of whether you can fully comprehend it and why. Because Brad... he's not a Soccer playing who has someone run past him lightly brush him, and have him throw himself to the ground, writhing in imaginary pain. If he stated his feelings here, he was aggrieved. 

LOL, very nice. And I do realize I am being somewhat abrasive (Didn't think it was insulting: It is only a game. If someone told me a paper I wrote was really bad, I wouldn't let it tear away at me personally.). But again: Not a 14 year old trolling, a legitimate customer with concerns. Note that if it makes brad feel better, I really like the way the game plays, just not the backstory.

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June 22, 2010 11:31:38 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting endofdayz,

The backstory for Elemental is something I've spent the better part of two decades creating.  Random House has certainly been helpful in fleshing it out.  But to accuse me of selling out or whatever is pretty insulting and frankly unwelcome.  If you don't like it, you're free to ignore it. But it has nothing to do with "making a few bucks on the side".


So much as it wasn't meant as a personal attack, it was me being an honest customer voicing my concerns. If you weren't attempting to tie a story into what is in effect a sandbox game, I wouldn't be bothered. If I hadn't already purchased said game while believing it was going to be MoM++ (aka a good, open, sandbox TB fantasy game), I wouldn't be bothered. Instead I am left wondering why so many races typical to this genre are ignored in favor of two nearly identical "factions". And with a world that appears to be more and more limited as I see more of the game. Most of my concerns seem to be answered by the "It can be modded" motto. Thats a dangerous and lazy path for developers to go down.

You needn't be so personally offended either. I can't imagine every dime the book/game makes will go through you, and in turn I can't possibly blame you for whats happened to it. But seeing as I DID purchase the game, I feel I have some right to be openly pessimistic when given reason. I hope so very much that the game WON'T be totally crippled by this whole lore thing, as I could see it being one of the few strategy games that hasn't sold out recently.

You certainly have a right to your opinion. And I have the right to say your opinion is stupid too.

Galactic Civilizations has a great deal of lore behind it too (they're in the same universe, just different times) but I doubt most would agree that the sandbox mode is broken.

The races in GalCiv are all basically identical other than different BINK movies.  In Twilight of the Arnor (made two years later) we finally gave each race its own tech tree.  What makes them feel different is their backstories, their dialog, and their behavior which all comes from the game's lore.

In Elemental, the factions are substantially different. But alas, you're judging the factions based on the beta and then rudely assuming that I just want to make a quick buck.

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June 22, 2010 11:31:41 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting TCores,


I know "Lore" is something that personally upsets you. As a result, I have created this guide to help you enjoy games "Lore Free."


Go into your closet.
Look for the "Risk" tm logo.
If you find it, skip to step #6
Order Risk from ebay.
Wait two weeks.
Put the game on your table.
Look for the pieces that are supposed to represent individual units. Remove the horsemen, the cavalary and the canons if present. Replace them with small sqaures of coloured cardboard.
Take the board that represents the world. Tape some paper sheets on it until it covers everything.
Get a ruler. Trace out a large square grid in the board, leaving two inches of white space along the outside rim.
Find the cards that represent territoties in the game. Use a marker to black out the names. Give them a new, random name composed of meaningless letters.
By now, your game should have all "Lore" removed to it and should in no way resemble the real world at any point in history. It is a "Pure" strategy game with zero historical lore and zero real world references. All units are squares, the things you are trying to "take" by getting your colour of square on them are squares, and the cards you get for taking them have no meaning whatsoever.

You may apply this guide to "monopoly" to create a sandbox monopoly empire game if you like. You may have some trouble with Clue: I suggest allowing the idea of having verbs and adjectives. "Known Constant X was Something Oned with the Thing Three in the Place 7," can be a winning statement to help reduce this to the basic elements.

At your leisure, you may add in sprinkles of random fantasy elements if you desire. This is more difficult. I suggest getting copies of Twilight, anything by R.A. Salvatore or Ed Greenwood, and cutting the books into small one-inch squares and gluing them at random to the board. You should get adequate jumbles of "Dragon," "Elf," and "Sparkly" occuring in a meaningless, "Lore Free" fashion. At no point will you have to worry about a cohesive, original story emerging.

Thank you, that'll be +1 Karma.

While actually pretty funny, this is kinda the problem. Criticism being shot down without addressing the issue. You went too far, creating a straw man situation where all I appear to want is an empty void where I move figures around. My real problem is I want a more open world, with room for variuos fantasy traditions. The one thing I am actually right about is races: they only have two, and even they are virtually the same. It's 2010, a fantasy game should have SOME kind of variety... no elves, dwarves, or orcs. Instead we get somewhat tall humans, somewhat short humans, and fallen (basically dark skinned humans) that are a little hunchback. I understand the difference is subtle, but as its a fantasy game those little differences leave it dry. I dare someone to answer this concern of mine without using the word mod.

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June 22, 2010 11:41:54 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting endofdayz,


I kinda wanted to just buy a game... 

 

Well you did. As for anything being "delayed"...well simply put away the beta client until the game you purchased is completed. As for not realizing you were involved with some one's pet project...All games/movies/books/paintings/poems/sculptures/TV shows/comic books/songs are some one's "pet project". Maybe you don't want to come off sounding as an self-entitled ass or troll but your wording is consistently antagonistic.

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June 22, 2010 11:48:27 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Frogboy,

Quoting endofdayz, reply 14
You certainly have a right to your opinion. And I have the right to say your opinion is stupid too.

This is another problem - addressing valid concerns with offhand remarks like that. I guess I might take the same "My company. My way." approach in your shoes, but again: art from adversity. Shooting someone down because you can doesn't actually add anything to an arguement.

Quoting Frogboy,

Galactic Civilizations has a great deal of lore behind it too (they're in the same universe, just different times) but I doubt most would agree that the sandbox mode is broken.

The races in GalCiv are all basically identical other than different BINK movies.  In Twilight of the Arnor (made two years later) we finally gave each race its own tech tree.  What makes them feel different is their backstories, their dialog, and their behavior which all comes from the game's lore.

In Elemental, the factions are substantially different. But alas, you're judging the factions based on the beta and then rudely assuming that I just want to make a quick buck.

The quick buck remark is true. You are selling the book. I imagine it isn't being given out as charity, hence profit will be made. I'm not seeing the problem here. Maybe implying that you are selling out or something is bothering you, but you took a work that could be released free (not saying you should - I wouldn't) and are selling it. As you make games I can't imagine that that type of backstory could be anything more than a DnD campaign written on the side, hence certainly not your main form of income. You did what any American would do, and are doing it for a genre that is in desperate need of new blood, all im doing is stating the truth. BTW all these sweeping assumptions could be wrong, and maybe your dieing friend wrote it and gifted it you, and i'm a total d*ck. But this is where you are getting hung up, and my concerns lie else wear.

Galciv was a space empire game - play any of those and you will note that they all save on art and such by never really showing the races, just little looping AVI's in the diplomacy screen. A fantasy game is supposed to be about variation and seeing things you never see in real life. In all my DnD sessions the most interesting characters weren't human fighters, they were stuff like satyr warlocks and dark elven rangers dual wielding schimitars (props to any that get the reference). If I wanted to see tall, short, and dark skinned humans I could just go outside... I guess thats really the gist of my arguement.

Then again, my opinion is stupid.

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