Tyranids and Zerg

40k and Starcraft

By on May 18, 2010 9:23:07 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Tasunke

Join Date 10/2009
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Tyranids and Zerg

Eldar and Protoss

Space Marines and Terrans

 

I mean ... I guess its just like how all fantasy games (usually) include humans, orcs, elves, dwarves, and demons ... but still!

I mean ... sure Starcraft is a bit more original (not based directly from fantasy/ Warhammer), so it doesn't have orcs and demons ... and sure fantasy games don't have Hive Mind Bug Species (although they do have Zombies/Necrons)

And really, I think that we can all agree that the Zerg/Tyranid race is a bastard child between James' Cameron's Aliens and the book Starship Troopers ... whose older brother was the MOVIE Starship Troopers

 

Who agrees? (About Zerg/Tryanids only existing because of the movie ALIENS by James Cameron)

 

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May 18, 2010 10:10:47 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Probably not. Hive mind species are one of the genre cliches of sci-fi, and have been probably since even before sci-fi movies were being made.

Orcs are actually not in all fantasy games, usually there are goblins, but orcs aren't as common. Elves and dwarves have roots in European mythology, which is what most fantasy settings are based on. And demons/evil spirits are found in most religions worldwide.

Edit: and looking up group mind on wikipedia shows the oldest mention of hive-mind is very similar to the modern zerg. It was from 1930. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_and_First_Men#Human_species (Eighteenth Men)

"The most advanced humans of all. "Superficially we seem to be not one species but many." (One interesting aspect of the Eighteenth Men is that they have a number of different "sub-genders," variants on the basic male and female pattern, with distinctive temperaments. The Eighteenth Men's equivalent of the family unit includes one of each of these sub-genders and is the basis of their society. The units have the ability to act as a group mind, which eventually leads to the establishment of a single ground mind uniting the entire species.)"

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May 18, 2010 10:30:24 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I wasn't speaking of the Hive Mind per-se, but the Reptilian, Egg laying, Spore infesting, skin crawling, Super-fast breeding ... biological nightmare.

I suppose I meant, something that encompasses every similarity that the Zerg and Tyranid share ... which is QUITE ALOT.

All I was saying, is that I believe in Sci-Fi there will be many near-exact replica's to come. As in, it will become a Space Adventures staple if it isn't already.

Do your previous versions of hive-minds include mass-breeding bug-reptile like races? I think that the green tide of the bugs will quickly surpass the green tide of the orcs in popularity ... in part because it is more believable that these bug-aliens can easily outnumber you, while Orcs are just too human.

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May 19, 2010 9:08:09 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Its a sci-fi baddy which is merely the result of a combination of the sci-fi tropes of a hive-mind and giant bugs, it was around way before Cameron crawled out of his cradle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_mind_(science_fiction)

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May 19, 2010 9:23:46 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Tasunke,
Do your previous versions of hive-minds include mass-breeding bug-reptile like races? I think that the green tide of the bugs will quickly surpass the green tide of the orcs in popularity ... in part because it is more believable that these bug-aliens can easily outnumber you, while Orcs are just too human.
Senseless violence and funny talk are OrK domain (Orcs gets evilness and wanton destruction). And they have been more popular than brainless hordes of bugs since dawn of time (and of war). I don't see that changing. (a hybrid of both doesn't count)

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May 19, 2010 9:29:34 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

So then, when was the first combination of the tropes used?

Again ... I personally think that the first "real combination" of the tropes wasn't in effect until the MOVIE Starship Troopers because the book left it up to interpretation.

Hive mind humans are boring and don't fill the quota at all

Still, I felt that the "buggy" part of the trope-combo (and really Alien-Bugs are a trope unto themselves) was crafted to become 80% of what we see in Tyranids and Zerg today in the movie Aliens.

If you merely mean that, Yes-there were Giant Bugs back in the 40s and 50s, and yes, there were Hive Minds in the 40s and 50s ... then that doesn't completely qualify.

What I mean, is the fact of scary looking aliens that kinda look like bugs, and are slightly more reptilian, and basically are powerful enough to conquer the entire universe. Sort of like a Super-bad-guy-Alien-monster-trope.

This is different from the normal Alien Dominator trope because these aliens are mindless and animalistic ... and it is only via the RARE intervention of the Hive Mind that they pose an organized military threat ... however their military threat without organization is still quite extreme, due to their vast numbers and rapid reproduction. As well as their tendency to kill everything.

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May 19, 2010 9:30:47 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

It seems like almost every science fiction setting throws in bug-aliens are some point or another. Honestly, I think that zerg/tyranid type races are getting a little boring. I'd even rather have klingons and vulcans.

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May 19, 2010 9:35:08 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Wintersong,

Quoting Tasunke, reply 2Do your previous versions of hive-minds include mass-breeding bug-reptile like races? I think that the green tide of the bugs will quickly surpass the green tide of the orcs in popularity ... in part because it is more believable that these bug-aliens can easily outnumber you, while Orcs are just too human.
Senseless violence and funny talk are OrK domain (Orcs gets evilness and wanton destruction). And they have been more popular than brainless hordes of bugs since dawn of time (and of war). I don't see that changing. (a hybrid of both doesn't count)

Well, as for the Orc bit ... I just see it as a mistake to lump Orcish lore in with the Tyrannids, in saying the whole "Orcs are part Fungus" and "Orcs replicate by spores."

Orcs were FAR more interesting when they were more like humans, and reproduced in more normal (if still savagely orky) ways. Now they are just noisy bugs that are easier to squash than tyranids

And the games ALWAYS contradict this lore by never having the Orcs use massive numbers to overwhelm their enemy (only tyranids do that) .... I mean, maybe they are true to the lore on table top games, but I have never gotten the idea that Orcs are Fungus/Bugs that can vastly out-produce me in population.

I mean ... orcs are way cooler when they are a semi-primitive warlike society, with vast reproduction and crummy half-technology, and a cast of Weirdboyz society that keeps them in the Space Age "just barely".

For me, the "Spore" part of Orcish lore just seems contrived and detracts from the believability of Orcish culture (imho)

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May 19, 2010 9:48:22 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Tasunke,

For me, the "Spore" part of Orcish lore just seems contrived and detracts from the believability of Orcish culture (imho)
Orks as plants sounds silly to me but I don't own that Lore so... *shrug* At least they are some kind of relative to Pa'u Zotoh Zhaan, I suppose.

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May 20, 2010 1:40:55 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

The zerg are animal and vegetable, no mineral.

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May 20, 2010 3:36:24 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Zerg, Tyranid, and Orcs are all Animal/Fungus ... your point being?

(although I prefer the lore where Orcs are 100% humanoid animal like in fantasy genres)

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May 20, 2010 4:42:07 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I'll point out Blizzard is horrendous in their ripping-off of established IPs, or even basic mythology, though you really can't call them on the second one. Almost everything is, so. . .

 

Anywho, what's the point of this post?

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May 20, 2010 4:52:20 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Anywho, what's the point of this post?

I was just wondering the same thing.

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May 20, 2010 5:03:12 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I suppose the post is more of a comment, as opposed to a specifically directed purpose. If you don't find how similar Tyranids and Zerg are to be odd or uncanny, then you don't have to add.

I suppose the real question is which came first? Tyranid or Zerg?

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May 20, 2010 5:04:50 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I suppose the post is more of a comment, as opposed to a specifically directed purpose. If you don't find how similar Tyranids and Zerg are to be odd or uncanny, then you don't have to add.

I suppose the real question is which came first? Tyranid or Zerg?

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May 22, 2010 1:24:17 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Tyranids were created in 1993

Zerg were created in 1996 or 1997.

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May 22, 2010 1:30:19 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Thank you. This does indeed help me solve this dilemma. I kind of needed a point of origin and perspective, and now it is more clear.

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May 22, 2010 5:58:57 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Eldar and Protoss

 

Those two aren't alike at all. Only thing they have in common is that they are the elder hightech race with superior technology.

 

Eldars armies are expensive, deal high damage, are very fast and focuses on ranged combat. They're fragile though.

Protoss are also EXPENSIVE, got mostly ranged units and do high damage but they're very durable. They also got lots and lots of special abilities like Psi Storm (which the Eldar also got though they call it Psychic Storm), feedback, Blink, Forcefield, Guardian Shield and Hallucination to name most of'em. They got 3 casterunits.

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May 22, 2010 11:07:55 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

So .... basically the only difference between Eldar and Protoss are that Protoss have Forcefields.

and your trying to say that they aren't alike at all?

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May 22, 2010 12:47:31 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Ender's Game combines the bug and hive mind tropes, and it was written in its first form in 1977.  This successfully predates the movie Aliens and leaves us with an easy counter-point to the original debate.  

There are lots of variations of the bug/hive-mind theme in scifi novels that predate Ender's Game, but I'm not familiar enough with them to point to one that specifically relates.

As for the Protoss, it really isn't hard to come up with an alien race that has superior, expensive technology.  I really don't think we can say anyone ripped off anyone else.  This is especially true in the computer game scene, which is  sixty years late to the party.

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May 22, 2010 4:51:44 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting FutileEmotion,
  I really don't think we can say anyone ripped off anyone else.  This is especially true in the computer game scene, which is  sixty years late to the party.

 

I'll take umbrage with that in the case of Warhammer 40K Vs Starcraft.

 

Space Marines -> Terran Marine

Tyranids -> Zerg

Protoss -> Tau

 

Admittedly, they made their own bits and pieces, but even things like the Ghosts are just Vindicare Assassins.

 

Again, I know, I admit, 40K is stealing things from all over the place, but at least in most cases (most, but certainly not all) they did something with it to make it semi-unique. Blizzard didn't even really try.

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May 22, 2010 8:40:47 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

The point I was trying to make was that Zerg has some unique differences to the movie Aliens.  The Protoss, however are very much like Predator if Predator had martian psychic abilities, technology and enlightenment.

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May 22, 2010 8:45:37 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

WHY do people feel a need to say that faction X and race Y STOLE/RIPPED OFF faction A and race B??

 

I say that it doesn't matter at ALL to me. It's all about execution.

 

 

Tasunke

Cherrypicking parts of an argument doesn't work

Protoss are VERY durable. Their units tier for tier got like 2x to 3x the hitpoints of the other races.

Eldar are fragile and got way less hitpoints for what you pay

Protoss are NOT the fastest/most mobile race as Eldar are.

Eldars effectiveness on high lvls of play lie in their speed (Fleet of Foot)

 

 

I know that humans (or atleast people online) want to simply everything but come on!   Saying that The Protoss and Eldar are alike is a bit like claiming that Terran Marines and SpaceMarines Tactical Squads have minor differences....

 

Protoss are also not like the Tau. The Protoss doesn't have any longranged basic unit like the Tau Firewarrior NOR do they have melee units that eat fallen enemies to regain health....

 

Next you're probably gonna claim that Tau Broadside Battlesuits and Protoss Colussus "have only minor differences"....

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May 22, 2010 9:54:06 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I wasn't referring to units in specifics except the Space Marines -> Terran Marine bit.

 

I was saying more along the idea. Though my SC lore is sketchy at best, so Tau may not be the best representative of it. I just thought I remembered a sort of 'Greater Good' idea from the Protoss campaigns. My memory, of course, may be deceiving me.

 

Really though, now that we've established Tasunke's original problem, it's all argument for the sake of itself, at this point.

 

(And I would never dare compare Tau Broadsides to Protoss Colossus. How dare you accuse me of something like that. Broadside Suits would tear an army of Colossi apart.)

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May 22, 2010 11:16:00 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I say that it doesn't matter at ALL to me. It's all about execution.

In terms of art, truer words have never been spoken.

Personally I'd always considered the design of the Alien to elude to the properties of mind itself, particularly the nature of its transmission from one being to the next. Whether or not such a reading was intended, it certainly has a lot to offer in terms of festering new ideas that take on the aspect of the chosen vessel...as the aliens do themselves.

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May 23, 2010 2:11:09 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Campaigner,


Tasunke

Cherrypicking parts of an argument doesn't work

Protoss are VERY durable. Their units tier for tier got like 2x to 3x the hitpoints of the other races.

Eldar are fragile and got way less hitpoints for what you pay

Protoss are NOT the fastest/most mobile race as Eldar are.

Eldars effectiveness on high lvls of play lie in their speed (Fleet of Foot)

 

Thank you for elaborating.

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